Infant Baptism.

[gr8grace3]

Luke 1:15 is a prophecy describing John being filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he must never drink wine or beer, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while he is still in his mother’s womb. ​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=LEB

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will never drink wine and fermented-drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still of his mother’s womb,​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=DLNT

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=NASB

for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=ESV

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=NKJV

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=KJV​

They all make the same point in English "from the" original Greek.

Yeah, I agree "in English" they try to make the same point. But in the Original language........It is 'OUT OF' the womb.

ek/ex/from~~ Is from the interior TO the exterior. Or out of.

We have life from the dust/womb/biological until we are BORN. From the womb, we have the breath of life.

Luke 1:15 Is a verse that states John's mission in life and that John fulfilled it according to Gods plan.........FROM/OUT OF the womb.

 

[Jim Parker]

ike it or not the order is believe first, followed by baptism.

Yeah. You already said that but haven't provided any reason for me to agree with you.
Is OK

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn't nor did Jesus say in Mk.16:16 "he that believes and THEN is baptized. You are putting words in my mouth, please refrain. Jesus did say and I repeat His words: "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved--". The word "and" is a copulative conjunction joining two things together of equal importance. Whatever belief is for, baptism is for, AND, like it or not the order is believe first, followed by baptism.

I have given you thus far the Bible order (not mime):
1. Mk.16:15,16, believe first, followed by baptism
2. Acts 8:12, believe first followed by baptism. BTW, you ignored this verse.
3. Now one more. Acts 8:13: "THEN, SIMON HIMSELF BELIEVED ALSO: AND WHEN HE WAS BAPTIZED---"
Please tell us the order in this verse. Is it not belief, baptism? Three passages in a row, and the order does NOT change.

Then you bring up the household of Lydia. She was a merchant of purple and on a mercantile trip. She was from Thyatira some 300 miles distant. Its not too likely infants would accompany her on this business journey. Indeed, infants are not mentioned in the text and you build a false doctrine upon a flimsy premise.

You mention the Philippin jailer and his house hold. The comments on Lydia's household apply here. Its a rather dangerous thing to base a cardinal doctrine on an if.

You mention Acts 16:16 but I see no content in it to attach to our subject.



I challenge you to find one verse where belief (or its equivalent) and baptism (water baptism) are together when the ORDER is not belief, followed by baptism.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW OR CALVINIST

Hi BB

Hate to cut in but Jim Parker did not say that YOU added the word THEN, as in
Mark 16:16 "and THEN" is baptized. He's just giving you an example of what would have had to be said if you were correct.

Did you know that there's a reason why some churches do some things?
The biggest and oldest denomination in the world baptizes babies. Did you ever ask yourself why?

Can that baby accept salvation on his own?
No.

Is the baby born with transmitted sin and with the sin nature?
Yes.

Can God be in the presence of sin?
No.

Put it all together and what do you get?
What if the baby dies?
Can he go to heaven?
The answer is No. Not if all of the above is true.
So, what to do about it?

And thus, babies started to be baptized to remove the stain of Original Sin which has been transmitted to all humanity, as you very well know.

As you can see, some of the MOST BRILLIANT theologians EVER, had thus decided back in the beginning of Christianity, that it would be a good idea for babies to be baptized.

In which case, the ORDER, does not matter. What matters is that the baby is wished to be saved by his parents and by his church.

I don't understand how this could be a matter to be debated with any certainty since we do not know everything about God.

Jesus said we are to believe and we are to be baptized.
As long as both happen, I don't understand the problem.

When the baby grows up, he is required to become a believer in the Lord, thus accomplishing both requirements.

 

[WIP]

I'm not yelling. Its for EMPHA



Nothing to lose my cool about its ONLY for emphasis

General concenses is that when one writes with all caps, they are yelling. We have asked others not to do this and are now asking you to do likewise.

 

[WIP]

Not revelant

The rules of this forum require that you provide the scripture reference that backs up your position. You referenced Mark 16:16 to back up your position that one must believe first before being baptized. I have shown you that it may not be so because the word "and" does not necessarily mean an order of events. Show my how I am not correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

General concenses is that when one writes with all caps, they are yelling. We have asked others not to do this and are now asking you to do likewise.

Oooops.
I do this for emphasis too.
What if I want a certain word to stand out???

IOW, If I write everything in caps it could be construed as yelling,
but if I write just a few words in caps, is that OK?

I never heard of this, BTW.
(the yelling, I mean)

 

[WIP]

Sometimes it can be seen in the context of what is written but most times it is viewed as one yelling and that is rude.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sometimes it can be seen in the context of what is written but most times it is viewed as one yelling and that is rude.

OK.
I think people here know I don't yell.
And, yes, it can be evident from the context.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[chessman]

The biggest and oldest denomination in the world baptizes babies

The first Christian church in the world did not baptize babies.
Here's my evidence for my claim. Where's yours???

From the inspired and infallible church history (the Acts of the Apostles versus other people's claims of being the 'oldest church'), the first Christian church was founded in Jerusalem by the Apostles of Christ (direct-literal Apostles) who were literal witnesses to Christ's ministry, death, resurrection and ascension. And just as important, the receivers of the Baptism by the Holy Spirit (at their proper time):

Acts 1 (LEB) 1 I produced the former account, O Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and to teach, 2 until the day he was taken up, after he had given orders through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen, 3 to whom he also presented himself alive after he suffered, with many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking the things about the kingdom of God. 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest part of the earth.”​

Note:
1. The order of the grammar within v8 is clearly: wait in Jerusalem, receive power from the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem (you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit first, not baptized with water first!), witness in Jerusalem (the First Christian Church of Jerusalem), witness in all Judea (greater Jerusalem outreach), witness in Samaria (half Jews, their neighbors), witness in the farthest part of the Earth (World outreach). It would be out of order for them to have witnessed in Samaria prior to witnessing in Judea and prior to receiving power and prior to waiting in Jerusalem until they had received power AND prior being baptized by ______ (water or by the Holy Spirit?).
2. Order IS important to being a good church member within the commands of Jesus.
3. They (this original church) received their power "when" the Holy Spirit came upon them, not before and not through water baptism.
4. Jesus "began" the oldest Christian church (and still leads it today) through teaching disciples first AND then through the Holy Spirit Baptism, not through water baptism.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,​

Who's "them"???, people who have first been made disciples or infants who might become disciples later in their life? (the answer and the order is obvious).

BTW, they were told to "go and make disciples of all the nations". The order is obviously first go, second make disciples of all the nations, then thirdly baptize them (disciples).

 

[GodsGrace]

The first Christian church in the world did not baptize babies.
Here's my evidence for my claim. Where's yours???

From the inspired and infallible church history (the Acts of the Apostles versus other people's claims of being the 'oldest church'), the first Christian church was founded in Jerusalem by the Apostles of Christ (direct-literal Apostles) who were literal witnesses to Christ's ministry, death, resurrection and ascension. And just as important, the receivers of the Baptism by the Holy Spirit (at their proper time):

Acts 1 (LEB) 1 I produced the former account, O Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and to teach, 2 until the day he was taken up, after he had given orders through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen, 3 to whom he also presented himself alive after he suffered, with many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking the things about the kingdom of God. 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest part of the earth.”​

Note:
1. The order of the grammar within v8 is clearly: wait in Jerusalem, receive power from the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem (you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit first, not baptized with water first!), witness in Jerusalem (the First Christian Church of Jerusalem), witness in all Judea (greater Jerusalem outreach), witness in Samaria (half Jews, their neighbors), witness in the farthest part of the Earth (World outreach). It would be out of order for them to have witnessed in Samaria prior to witnessing in Judea and prior to receiving power and prior to waiting in Jerusalem until they had received power AND prior being baptized by ______ (water or by the Holy Spirit?).
2. Order IS important to being a good church member within the commands of Jesus.
3. They (this original church) received their power "when" the Holy Spirit came upon them, not before and not through water baptism.
4. Jesus "began" the oldest Christian church (and still leads it today) through teaching disciples first AND then through the Holy Spirit Baptism, not through water baptism.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,​

Who's "them"???, people who have first been made disciples or infants who might become disciples later in their life? (the answer and the order is obvious).

BTW, they were told to "go and make disciples of all the nations". The order is obviously first go, second make disciples of all the nations, then thirdly baptize them (disciples).

Well Chessman,
We have little to debate since I happen to agree with you.
I was just pointing out that some churches have a reason for baptizing babies and it could be a very legitimate reason.

Minds sharper than mine have come to this conclusion, so, although I don't agree, I DO respect them for what THEY believe.

Since you bring up history, I do want to say that the Catholic church can be traced back to Jesus' time. The only one present in 2017, BTW.
THIS cannot be disputed.

 

[barelohim]

Well Chessman,
We have little to debate since I happen to agree with you.
I was just pointing out that some churches have a reason for baptizing babies and it could be a very legitimate reason.

Minds sharper than mine have come to this conclusion, so, although I don't agree, I DO respect them for what THEY believe.

Since you bring up history, I do want to say that the Catholic church can be traced back to Jesus' time. The only one present in 2017, BTW.
THIS cannot be disputed.

Can you give any scriptural evidence to your statement of "the Catholic church being traced back to Jesus' time?"

 

[barelohim]

Hi BB

Hate to cut in but Jim Parker did not say that YOU added the word THEN, as in
Mark 16:16 "and THEN" is baptized. He's just giving you an example of what would have had to be said if you were correct.

Did you know that there's a reason why some churches do some things?
The biggest and oldest denomination in the world baptizes babies. Did you ever ask yourself why?

Can that baby accept salvation on his own?
No.

Is the baby born with transmitted sin and with the sin nature?
Yes.

Can God be in the presence of sin?
No.

Put it all together and what do you get?
What if the baby dies?
Can he go to heaven?
The answer is No. Not if all of the above is true.
So, what to do about it?

And thus, babies started to be baptized to remove the stain of Original Sin which has been transmitted to all humanity, as you very well know.

As you can see, some of the MOST BRILLIANT theologians EVER, had thus decided back in the beginning of Christianity, that it would be a good idea for babies to be baptized.

In which case, the ORDER, does not matter. What matters is that the baby is wished to be saved by his parents and by his church.

I don't understand how this could be a matter to be debated with any certainty since we do not know everything about God.

Jesus said we are to believe and we are to be baptized.
As long as both happen, I don't understand the problem.

When the baby grows up, he is required to become a believer in the Lord, thus accomplishing both requirements.

Just to clear, there hasn't been anyone born since Christ, with original sin. Since He was the Last Adam.

 

[WIP]

Can you give any scriptural evidence to your statement of "the Catholic church being traced back to Jesus' time?"

I don't see that statement in the part you quoted.

 

[barelohim]

Sorry that post was for " wondering "

 

[billybalke]

The rules of this forum require that you provide the scripture reference that backs up your position. You referenced Mark 16:16 to back up your position that one must believe first before being baptized. I have shown you that it may not be so because the word "and" does not necessarily mean an order of events. Show my how I am not correct.

Thank you. Will you please provide ONE passage where the context involves BELIEF (or its equivalent) and BAPTISM where the order is not belief first followed by baptism. I believe the Holy Spirit put it like that for a reason and its incumbent on us to accept as written.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT JEW OR CALVINIST
ROM.16:16

 

[billybalke]

General concenses is that when one writes with all caps, they are yelling. We have asked others not to do this and are now asking you to do likewise.

 

[billybalke]

I'm not sure I've made a post with ALL caps. Will you show me one and I shall apologize

 

[billybalke]

Yeah. You already said that but haven't provided any reason for me to agree with you.
Is OK

Once again I ask, please give ONE passage where the context containing belief or its equivalent and baptism are NOT in the order of belief first, baptism second.
God bless

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you give any scriptural evidence to your statement of "the Catholic church being traced back to Jesus' time?"

First answer me this:

Is there history OUTSIDE of scripture?
Or does history not exist?

What church, according to you, was around about 50 years after Jesus' death?

 

[GodsGrace]

Just to clear, there hasn't been anyone born since Christ, with original sin. Since He was the Last Adam.

??
What is Original Sin in your opinion?
Are we born with any sin?
Are we born good?

Please clarify.
What does Jesus being the last Adam have to do with this?
I can't make the connection...
WHY is it necessary for Jesus to be the last Adam?