Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[smaller]

People who misquote and misrepresent true believers, so they can accuse them of what they didn't even say, is the hallmark of those whose have been taken captive by the evil one, to do his will; which is accusing the brethren.

JLB

Pretty sure you're in the same boat with Jethro. Just a slightly off brand of legalism/works salvation than Jethro's or Jim's or Oz's sects. The bulk of "freewill" camps are works/legalist salvation sects when you get down to it.

They're a dime a dozen nowdays. New one with a different slant every day. NOT according to Paul as below, that's for sure:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The dead giveaway of every works/legalist sect is when they say you MIGHT be saved or you'll be saved IF you do X works and continue to do them. There really is no surety of salvation other than a surety of maybe not IF you don't perform.

I call it IFFY salvation. Might be. Might not be. Who really knows? The adherents always seem pretty sure of themselves and not so sure about the other guys whatsoever. And all the people in such camps rah rah each others, UNTIL you examine the facts that none of them really agree on much. So even their rah rah's are phony.

 

[JLB]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The dead giveaway of every works/legalist sect is when they say you MIGHT be saved or you'll be saved IF you do X works and continue to do them. There really is no surety of salvation other than a surety of maybe not IF you don't perform.

More misquoting and accusing of God's people who speak the truth.

People who are reconciled to God, and are filled with His Spirit, demonstrate that they are indeed saved, and do indeed have the Spirit of Christ within, by expressing the life of the Spirit.


Not to become saved; but because they have been saved.

That is the point.

The proof of being a son of God, is demonstrating the love of God in action, not just words.

...by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:15-16



JLB

 

[smaller]

The proof of being a son of God, is demonstrating the love of God in action, not just words.

But you see JLB, that is exactly what legalism/works salvation IS.

In actuality, what you are claiming is that without works the believers will not be saved. And that is the voice of those in Acts 20:29-31, trying to DESTROY the flock.

Anyone who tries to kill sheep by any means is a destroyer or potential destroyer of them. No matter how eloquent or tricky their schemes might be. The bottom line is always the same. IFFY. Potentially destroying, to the end. I wouldn't call that salvation whatsoever. It can't be. It's always only and ever potential salvation, never surety of salvation.

IFFY to thee end.

 

[chessman]

The faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that loves--not does nothing.

Bingo!
The faith that justifes us before God is the faith that loved us AND comes through the Spirit.

Galatians 5:5 (NASB) For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. ​

 

[dirtfarmer]

Wait, hold on.
I'm Protestant and I believe that the believer is justified entirely on the basis of faith in Christ to be the acceptable propitiation (the turning away of the wrath of God) for our sins--completely and entirely at the moment of belief, with no requirement or restriction to first perform a rite (Ephesians 1:13 NASB, Acts 10:44 NASB). But the thing that differentiates me from the vast majority of Protestants is that if the faith that solicits God's justification entirely all by itself is not a genuine faith if that faith does not then lead a person into a life of increasing works of righteousness displayed in the fruit of the Spirit. Paul says it this way: The faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that loves--not does nothing.

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

That's not a works gospel. Faith does the justifying all by itself. But the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that changes a person into a new creation who then grows up into the righteous qualities of Jesus Christ. If ones 'faith' is not doing that, they need to examine to see if they really have the Holy Spirit inside of them in a legitimate salvation experience

5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5 NASB)

Contrary to hyper/free grace teaching, you can't arrive at the Judgment with no evidence of the grace of God in your works and expect to be saved. Jesus made it very clear that faith in Him is measured by your character expressed in what you do:

"31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 18:31-46 NASB)

James says the same thing:

"14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14 NASB)

The person who thinks their works-less, do-nothing, hyper-grace 'faith' is going to save them on the Day of Wrath, well, they've got a very harsh wake up call coming. But it will be too late then. Repent now while you still can. Seek the infilling of God's Holy Spirit to move you to works of righteousness in a deep and sincere love for Him and His people. God will remember your love and the work you do for Him and His people, and through that faith, and perseverance of faith, you will inherit the promises:

"10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NASB bold and underline and parenthesis mine)

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I agree with your statements up to: "hyper/free grace teaching". Scripture states that judgment of sin has already been accomplished. In 2 Corinthians 5:18 There are several truths revealed.
1. God has reconciled the world by not imputing "their" trespasses "unto them" because of the cross work of Christ. God has stated that whosoever has sinned shall die. We were born alienated from God by being born in the flesh.
2. Our trespasses are not imputed to us. It is unbelief that has caused us to be separated from God, and because of that unbelief we are not pleasing to God. Christ is the only one that is ever said to be "well-pleasing" to God. Any activity, work, or deed that is not accomplished by "Christ in us" is a work of the flesh and cannot be pleasing to the Father.
3. we have been given the "ministry of reconciliation"

According to 2 Corinthians 4:1 it is those who have received mercy that have the ministry of reconciliation, not the ministry condemnation. When we preach "self preservation", or keeping ourselves saved, we are not exercising the "ministry of reconciliation" of the world by faith in Christ. Anything that we can do in the flesh after salvation, we can do before salvation. It is the heart that God looks upon for salvation, not the things that we do.

It is stated in Ephesians 2:10, " we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ordained, that we should walk in them." According to this verse we are God's workmanship in Christ Jesus and we are to walk in the good works of Christ, not accomplish them, he already has accomplished them. We, by faith, are to walk in those works

 

[ezra]

IMO (whatever that's worth) the OSAS view endangers one's salvation, according to popular usage of that word, by encouraging a "do nothing" attitude toward submitting to God's will for our lives.

to be honest that is not osas is about. all though there are those who do practice it that way. that is where the confusion/ disagreements come in at. the do nothing attitude after being saved is not Bible and if one practices that. then chances are they are not saved

 

[reba]

How about a few words from the King
Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh_15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh_15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

then from His Word

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

[FreeGrace]

Wait, hold on.
I'm Protestant and I believe that the believer is justified entirely on the basis of faith in Christ to be the acceptable propitiation (the turning away of the wrath of God) for our sins--completely and entirely at the moment of belief, with no requirement or restriction to first perform a rite (Ephesians 1:13 NASB, Acts 10:44 NASB).

But your view is that justification, which is described as a gift of God in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 is not irrevocable, even though Paul later in the SAME EPISTLE said that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29).

 

[FreeGrace]

Lol, even after I explained, using the plain words of the Bible, how works coupled with faith is not 'works'.

I believe his point was clear: salvation is NOT obtained by ANY kind of works with faith. It's faith that saves. Not a salad of faith and various works. Eph 2:8,9 completely refutes your claim of works being necesssary for salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your claims are the epitome of works based salvation, out of your own mouth.

11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12 NASB)

Look at it again.
What is it through that one inherits the promises? Did he say through works, or through faith? Through faith, of course. How can you say the passage above is a works gospel?

Explain to us what the diligence of faith is in your doctrine. What does that look like? In Hebrews 6:9-11 NASB it's love expressed in works. The author says, that love and works are the "things that accompany salvation" (vs.9). And he calls that faith. But hyper-grace doctrine says nothing has to accompany faith, because that would make it a works gospel. The author says that the fruitless, works-less 'field' is one that is cursed and will be burned in the end, an obvious reference to the Judgment of the accursed. But hyper-grace doctrine says fruitless, barren fields are not cursed and will even be saved. This passage about faith in Hebrews completely and utterly destroys that doctrine, exposing it as false.

 

[FreeGrace]

Wait.....aren't you of the hyper-grace OSAS persuasion?
There is no such thing as a phony church in that doctrine.

Since it's apparent that you're unfamiliar with the doctrine, your claim is just as hollow.

 

[FreeGrace]

Pretty sure you're in the same boat with Jethro. Just a slightly off brand of legalism/works salvation than Jethro's or Jim's or Oz's sects. The bulk of "freewill" camps are works/legalist salvation sects when you get down to it.

They're a dime a dozen nowdays. New one with a different slant every day. NOT according to Paul as below, that's for sure:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The dead giveaway of every works/legalist sect is when they say you MIGHT be saved or you'll be saved IF you do X works and continue to do them. There really is no surety of salvation other than a surety of maybe not IF you don't perform.

I call it IFFY salvation. Might be. Might not be. Who really knows? The adherents always seem pretty sure of themselves and not so sure about the other guys whatsoever. And all the people in such camps rah rah each others, UNTIL you examine the facts that none of them really agree on much. So even their rah rah's are phony.

And don't forget the NEXT verse: Eph 2:9 - not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe his point was clear: salvation is NOT obtained by ANY kind of works with faith. It's faith that saves. Not a salad of faith and various works. Eph 2:8,9 completely refutes your claim of works being necesssary for salvation.

You do not have the justification by faith you think you have if that faith does not work through love. because Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that works through love.

But hyper/free grace doctrine says faith that doesn't work through love justifies, in complete and utter contradiction to Paul:

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love (justifies--see context)." (Galatians 5:6 NASB bold and underline and parenthesis mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since it's apparent that you're unfamiliar with the doctrine, your claim is just as hollow.

But I have believed in the past, so for smaller to say I'm of the phony church completely contradicts his hyper/free grace doctrine.

(This is the 'univeralism' of hyper-grace reba was referring to.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People who misquote and misrepresent true believers, so they can accuse them of what they didn't even say, is the hallmark of those whose have been taken captive by the evil one, to do his will; which is accusing the brethren.



JLB

And which smaller can not deny because that would violate his own doctrine about the honesty of indwelling sin and captivity to sin. If he denies it, he will have no choice but to admit he is among the hypocrites he accuses of ignoring that (so-called) truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I call it IFFY salvation. Might be. Might not be. Who really knows?

Lol, you still don't even understand the argument.

In non-OSAS doctrine you are very much saved in any and every moment you are believing. There's no 'if' about it. Paul plainly said you are presently saved when you are presently holding fast the word of the gospel by which you were first saved:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB bold and underline mine)

 

[Jim Parker]

Would you care to expand and unpack your single word response, please?

If no, then you will understand, neither will I unpack nor expand my 805 wordcount to you.

Could you concisely state your point hidden in those 805 words?

 

[th1b.taylor]

But your view is that justification, which is described as a gift of God in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 is not irrevocable, even though Paul later in the SAME EPISTLE said that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29).

FG,
None of these scriptures say anything about the opposite position, revocable, and I don't understand whjat you are saying.

 

[FreeGrace]

You do not have the justification by faith you think you have if that faith does not work through love.

I never argued that it didn't.

because Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that works through love.

Yes, God loves the world in this way, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him WILL NEVER PERISH but have eternal life. John 3:16

But hyper/free grace doctrine says faith that doesn't work through love justifies, in complete and utter contradiction to Paul:

If trying to lay blame to another viewpoint, please include clear evidence to back up your claim. You've never done that. And your understanding of free grace doctrine is just a gross misunderstanding. Only after doing do diligence and actually reading from free grace links, rather than links that attack it, will anyone ever really know what is believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Since it's apparent that you're unfamiliar with the doctrine, your claim is just as hollow."

But I have believed in the past, so for smaller to say I'm of the phony church completely contradicts his hyper/free grace doctrine.

I'm not here to defend anyone's claims. Only the claims of the Bible. If you have an issue with another poster, then please take it up with them.

(This is the 'univeralism' of hyper-grace reba was referring to.)

I'm unaware of any poster on this thread who claims that everyone will be saved. So why would the subject of universalism even come up?