Is baptismal regeneration biblical?

[Hermit]

Hello Oz

...Does that mean your own theology is superior to that of other theologians?
I am not a theologian. I do not study the nature of God and religious beliefs. I strive to be humble to allow Christ through the Spirit of Truth to instruct me.
What does theology have to answer?
Assumptions made from their own intellect (body-mind and not soul-mind).
Theology is a discipline of theos (God) + logos (word or message), i.e. a discipline that deals with the message of God.
By which mind, the body-mind of (conditional) knowledge, or the soul-mind of (unconditional) knowing. Many theologians, especially still in college, operate from their body-mind.
With which theologians do you disagree?
Any who are not operating, at the time, from their soul-mind.
However, the OP has to do with baptismal regeneration. Do you believe Scripture teaches that one has to be baptised to be saved?
No, I do not propose to place conditions on God's Will. However, baptism is given to us by God to access counsel from Christ/God via the Holy Spirit.
Oz
P.S. How is Ballina weather? Crisp mornings and warm days.I live in a northern suburb of Brisbane and there is a little of Spring temps in the air. I'm planning on going into a 55+ village that has 2 villages, one in Ballina. It's called Riverbend and the one I plan to enter is at Burpengary Qld.
I have a cycling friend who used to live in Riverbend. He left because everybody he greeted always gave him their history of woes and list of medications (he is a retired veterinarian).

 

[OzSpen]

Well said. Is it your understanding that this Spirit baptism happens at the moment we are saved which is when we first believed?

Papa,

I have a question: If Spirit baptism happens at conversion, how does that differ from being 'filled with the Holy Spirit' or 'the Holy Spirit came on them' (Acts 2:4; 10:44-45; 19:1-6 ESV)?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hello Oz

Hermit,

You stated:

By which mind, the body-mind of (conditional) knowledge, or the soul-mind of (unconditional) knowing. Many theologians, especially still in college, operate from their body-mind.

Would you mind explaining for me the difference between body-mind and soul-mind?

How does this difference affect your understanding of baptismal regeneration?

I was somewhat confused by your statement,

I am not a theologian. I do not study the nature of God and religious beliefs. I strive to be humble to allow Christ through the Spirit of Truth to instruct me.

If you study the Scriptures, you study the nature of God and Judeo-Christian beliefs. Don't you read the Scriptures?

Theology refers to all who study the message of God in the Scriptures. In a sense, all of us who study the Bible are theologians because we are investigating the word of God.

Pz

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa,

I have a question: If Spirit baptism happens at conversion, how does that differ from being 'filled with the Holy Spirit' or 'the Holy Spirit came on them' (Acts 2:4; 10:44-45; 19:1-6 ESV)?

Oz

I don't know. But I don't think those verses are prescriptive, they are more descriptive of a particular event. I don't think we see groups shouting out the gospel to nonbelievers who hear the words spoken in their own language.

I may not be saying this correctly or I may be using the wrong phrase. But here goes: We are saved at the moment we believe. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. We are at that moment brought into (immersed, baptized, put into - however one understands this) the body of Christ. We are sealed by the HS then and there. This happens to all believers at that moment when we pass from death (dead in our trespasses and sin) to Life (our new Life In Christ).

What was going on in Acts was an overpowering of the Holy Spirit to witness to specific people groups (Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans). There's probably one other such group but I cannot remember without a refresher. Either way, it's unique and doesn't happen today (such as in Acts 2: Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Baptism is a transliteration as I'm sure you know. So in context, it doesn't always mean or refer to exactly the same thing.

I do know that in the testimony of the Scriptures, people were water baptized immediately after profession of faith. Not always I suppose but it was generally done. Today we have classes on it first then we baptize. You have to sign up for the class and then a date is set.

In my upbringing, you were baptized the moment you professed faith in Christ. The baptistery was always ready.

 

[Hermit]

Would you mind explaining for me the difference between body-mind and soul-mind?
It is something I use to explain the differences of mind. It came to me while seeing the words 'body-mind-soul'.

Body-mind is the mind which interprets (own thinking) worldly things and its own fabricated story of self-identity - the fearful ego (because it is invalid and always seek validity). It bases truth on what is visible, non-threatening to its own ego truth, and concocted by its own mind according to ego censorship. It is conditional fear-based thinking. Body-mind exalts itself in knowledge (it's conditional).

Soul-mind is the mind which allows, through faith (trusting the Spirit of Truth), that whatever enters the mind is true. It bases truth on what is invisible, clear, doubtless, fearless, fulfilling, and unconditional. It quickens the spirit in us. Soul-mind exalts God in knowing without claiming (having reasons) it for self (unconditional).

The soul-mind can see the truth about itself and the conditional fears of the body-mind. However, the body-mind alone cannot see the truth of itself nor the truth of the soul-mind. The soul-mind alone sees everything, but the body-mind alone only sees itself.

How does this difference affect your understanding of baptismal regeneration?
As explained above.

...If you study the Scriptures, you study the nature of God and Judeo-Christian beliefs. Don't you read the Scriptures?
Theology refers to all who study the message of God in the Scriptures. In a sense, all of us who study the Bible are theologians because we are investigating the word of God.
I read the scriptures and allow, through faith in the Christ/God via the Spirit of Truth to instruct me. I avoid the surface (the story), of which we are so used to doing, to see deeply like a two-edged sword of the truth entering under the surface. It requires faith (unconditionality) to be open like a wound to see the truth. Studying is self-controlled focusing, it is conditional (I have to focus the see). What you end up seeing is what the body-mind, through ego-fear censorship, wants you to see.
Pz

 

[OzSpen]

I don't know. But I don't think those verses are prescriptive, they are more descriptive of a particular event. I don't think we see groups shouting out the gospel to nonbelievers who hear the words spoken in their own language.

I may not be saying this correctly or I may be using the wrong phrase. But here goes: We are saved at the moment we believe. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. We are at that moment brought into (immersed, baptized, put into - however one understands this) the body of Christ. We are sealed by the HS then and there. This happens to all believers at that moment when we pass from death (dead in our trespasses and sin) to Life (our new Life In Christ).

What was going on in Acts was an overpowering of the Holy Spirit to witness to specific people groups (Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans). There's probably one other such group but I cannot remember without a refresher. Either way, it's unique and doesn't happen today (such as in Acts 2: Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Baptism is a transliteration as I'm sure you know. So in context, it doesn't always mean or refer to exactly the same thing.

I do know that in the testimony of the Scriptures, people were water baptized immediately after profession of faith. Not always I suppose but it was generally done. Today we have classes on it first then we baptize. You have to sign up for the class and then a date is set.

In my upbringing, you were baptized the moment you professed faith in Christ. The baptistery was always ready.

Papa,

I find that to be an excellent explanation.

When I was baptised as a teen believer in 1962, I had to do a short course on baptism before immersion. However, there was teaching on baptism from the pulpit from time to time.

Oz

 

[chessman]

You didn't answer this question Care to answer?

Acts 8:13 Now Simon himself also believed. And having been baptized, he was attaching-himself to Philip. He was astonished, seeing both signs and great miracles taking place.​

Is this referring to 'water baptism', to your understanding and teaching?

Which means it was not to be disregarded or ignored as irrelevant.

Nobody here has posted an opinion that water baptism is to be ignored. Jesus didn't ignore it, nor did Peter nor Paul nor me. The OP question, however, is whether regeneration occurs via water Baptism or not.

Where does Romans 6:3-4 say those words?

I didn't say it did. That's Paul explaining that his ministry is to proclaim the means of salvation to unregenerate people while at the same time not desiring to baptize them in 1 Cor 1.

 

[JLB]

I didn't say it did. That's Paul explaining that his ministry is to proclaim the means of salvation to unregenerate people while at the same time not desiring to baptize them in 1 Cor 1.

Here is your quote with the scripture you gave -

Romans 6:3-4 Or do you not know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried-with Him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ arose from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life.

So passages that never even mention"water" and that came from someone saying "I give-thanks to God that I baptized none of you"is a reference to 'water baptism'?

Again where does Paul say "I give-thanks to God that I baptized none of you" in Romans 6:3-4, the verse you quoted with your question.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans). There's probably one other such group but I cannot remember without a refresher

Yes, the group consisting of everyone from every nation who fear Him and believe in Him (baptized or not).

Acts 10:35, 43 but in every nation, the one fearing Him and working righteousness is acceptable to Him.
...
All the prophets testify concerning this One, that everyone believing in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name”.​

 

[JLB]

chessman said: ↑
Acts 8:13 Now Simon himself also believed. And having been baptized, he was attaching-himself to Philip. He was astonished, seeing both signs and great miracles taking place.

Is this referring to 'water baptism', to your understanding and teaching?

Yes, having been baptized is a reference to water baptism in this verse.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Again

Again, you didn't answer my question about your comment from Acts 8 being referring to water baptism, even though it doesn't mention water baptism.

where does Paul say "I give-thanks to God that I baptized none of you"

I told you, in 1 Cor 1.

 

[chessman]

Yes, having been baptized is a reference to water baptism in this verse.

Did it regenerate Simon then?

 

[JLB]

I didn't say it did. That's Paul explaining that his ministry is to proclaim the means of salvation to unregenerate people while at the same time not desiring to baptize them in 1 Cor 1.

The context you are referring to -

11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household,that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1 Corinthians 1:11-17

The point Paul was making is he was glad he didn't baptize to many people "lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name."

This was because of the divisions that arose, not because water baptism wasn't necessary.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, you didn't answer my question about your comment from Acts 8 being referring to water baptism, even though it doesn't mention water baptism.

Look at the post above this post of yours I quoted.

I plainly referred to Acts 8:13 and the phrase
Having been baptized, was a reference to water baptism.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Did it regenerate Simon then?

Does the scripture mention that Simon had been regenerated?


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is my original post and position on the matter.


The only way to be "regenerated" is by being Baptized into the body of Christ, by the Spirit.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is not water baptism.


There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again


A person must be born first, in order to be born "again".

The next verse teaches us this truth -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Born of flesh = Natural birth
Born of the Spirit = Spiritual birth.


Jesus used natural birth to illustrate Spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

earthly thing = natural birth
heavenly thing = Spiritual birth




JLB

 

[chessman]

This was because of the divisions that arose, not because water baptism wasn't necessary.

Necessary for what?

Does the scripture mention that Simon had been regenerated?

No. Nor does it mention water.

Do you think his being water baptized regenerated him?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa,

I find that to be an excellent explanation.

When I was baptised as a teen believer in 1962, I had to do a short course on baptism before immersion. However, there was teaching on baptism from the pulpit from time to time.

Oz

I was baptized at 13. It was 1965. My mom cried. It was a Church of Christ, non-instrumental. We sang the old hymns and I loved it. Why I turned out okay in life is a testimony to God's faithfulness to this broken vessel. Each day is a blessing. Retirement has really helped me focus on that. These days I attend a Baptist church. It fits me and the preaching is good.

 

[JLB]

Necessary for what?


No. Nor does it mention water.

Do you think his being water baptized regenerated him?

Here is my original post again, which should clarify my position.


The only way to be "regenerated" is by being Baptized into the body of Christ, by the Spirit.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is not water baptism.


There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again


A person must be born first, in order to be born "again".

The next verse teaches us this truth -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Born of flesh = Natural birth
Born of the Spirit = Spiritual birth.


Jesus used natural birth to illustrate Spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

earthly thing = natural birth
heavenly thing = Spiritual birth




JLB

 

[JLB]

I was baptized at 13. It was 1965. My mom cried. It was a Church of Christ, non-instrumental. We sang the old hymns and I loved it. Why I turned out okay in life is a testimony to God's faithfulness to this broken vessel. Each day is a blessing. Retirement has really helped me focus on that. These days I attend a Baptist church. It fits me and the preaching is good.

God is good!