Jim Parker
Member
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is baptismal regeneration biblical?
- Thread starter OzSpen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- baptism regeneration salvation
Jim Parker
Member
To my comment: "God used a created thing to save mankind when he used Jesus human body as a sacrifice for our sins."
Are you unaware the a human being is a created being?
Are you not aware that Jesus of Nazareth was both the eternal Logos/God and the flesh and blood human being born of Mary?
Does Jesus have a body of flesh?
Did his body bleed real blood when he was crucified?
Was He crucified after he was resurrected?
Or was He crucified first and did HE die first as a propitiation for our sins AND THEN was resurrected.
Rom 4:25
(Jesus Christ) who was delivered up because of our offenses,
and was raised because of our justification.
Rom 3:23-25
... all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood,
When did Jesus shed His blood, during the crucifixion or after the resurrection?
Take your time and get help if you need it. (You probably should get help.)
Are you unaware that Jesus body was totally human?
Are you unaware the a human being is a created being?
Are you not aware that Jesus of Nazareth was both the eternal Logos/God and the flesh and blood human being born of Mary?
Is Jesus flesh and blood?
Does Jesus have a body of flesh?
Did his body bleed real blood when he was crucified?
Was His resurrected body crucified?
Was He crucified after he was resurrected?
Or was He crucified first and did HE die first as a propitiation for our sins AND THEN was resurrected.
Rom 4:25
(Jesus Christ) who was delivered up because of our offenses,
and was raised because of our justification.
Rom 3:23-25
... all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood,
When did Jesus shed His blood, during the crucifixion or after the resurrection?
Take your time and get help if you need it. (You probably should get help.)
chessman
Member
When I asked you at least twice what you think water baptism is necessary for, you didn't answer. But if this 
is your answer, I have another question relative to what occurred in Acts 8 to Simon after his public confession (water baptism) but prior to his Spiritual baptism.
Was he making a public confession of his salvation through Jesus Christ by being water baptized?
is your answer, I have another question relative to what occurred in Acts 8 to Simon after his public confession (water baptism) but prior to his Spiritual baptism.Was he making a public confession of his salvation through Jesus Christ by being water baptized?
What else is water baptism necessary for?
Here in Romans 6 Paul says it is necessary for being baptized into Christ, both into His death and resurrection.
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4
JLB
In fact, Peter was very clear about the fact that water does NOT save us in that verse:
"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
The phrase "NOT the removal of dirt" is a direct reference to literal (wet) water. The words "this water" is literal wet water, which is a symbol of the baptism (note that water is NOT mentioned in reference to "this water").
iow, literal water is a symbol of the real and dry baptism that saves us.
Going back to Noah's flood, he was saved, not BY water, but through water. The literal water never touched him, but it surely did touch every human being outside the ark. They were dunked, for sure. And all died, for sure.
So, who got the literal water dunk (baptism)? The rest of humanity. And they died.
We see the same principle in 1 Cor 10 where Paul spoke of the Exodus generation being baptized INTO Moses and in the sea.
If every reference to baptism demands water, how in the world can anyone be immersed INTO Moses? That is just nonsense.
Further, being baptized "in the sea" again was WITHOUT any literal water. They walked across the Red Sea on DRY GROUND.
So, who was dunked in the sea (water baptism)? The Egyptian army. And they all died.
So the Bible gives us 2 examples of being immersed in water that led to DEATH, not life.
The core meaning of 'baptize' is "identification". The word was used of immersing a cloth into a dye in order to change the color of the cloth. So the cloth became identified with a different color. iow, the point of immersing cloth into dye was to identify the cloth with a different color.
So, the real and dry baptisms of the Bible are identifications. When Jesus was water baptised by John, He was being identified with the Father's plan for Him. The water immersion was a SYMBOL of this identification. All the water did was get Him wet. Nothing more. It was SYMBOLIC of being identified with the Father.
Our salvation includes the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which places us in union with Christ (Eph 1:13), and is a real identification with God the Father. No water is involved. When the believer receives water (immersion) baptism, this is an identification as a child of God.
Here are links to articles that describe the 7 baptisms of the Bible:
https://www.gotquestions.org/seven-baptisms.html
http://www.born-again-christian.info/baptisms.htm
Exactly!
I said this, and a lot more that has been left out:
"1 Cor 1:14, but Paul didn't add "to God". But he was thankful that he didn't baptize any of them except Crispus and Gaius."
I challenge anyone who thinks water baptism is necessary for salvation to carefully read through Acts and write down every instance of people coming to faith and count the # of times baptism is mentioned.
What you'll find is that belief alone occurs 23 times, and belief with baptism occurs just 9 times.
If salvation required water baptism, that would have required every instance to mention water baptism. Not just some of them.
"1 Cor 1:14, but Paul didn't add "to God". But he was thankful that he didn't baptize any of them except Crispus and Gaius."
It makes no sense to de-emphasize water baptism if water baptism is necessary for salvation. That's the point.
I challenge anyone who thinks water baptism is necessary for salvation to carefully read through Acts and write down every instance of people coming to faith and count the # of times baptism is mentioned.
What you'll find is that belief alone occurs 23 times, and belief with baptism occurs just 9 times.
If salvation required water baptism, that would have required every instance to mention water baptism. Not just some of them.
Wanna bet? From your own post #58:
I said this:
"Please invest in a study Bible. You'll learn that Mark 16:9-20 (end of chapter) isn't found in ANY of the earliest manuscripts
Your response:
So, there it is, in RED and white. So you DID say what I claimed you said. I never said "invest in a bible study" as you claimed. So don't try to shift the misreading to me.
And I continue to be amazed at this bold denial of truth.
This was my statement, but shows up in your post as from you. Don't plagiarize.
However, Mark 16:9-20 does NOT appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.
So, you are free to ignore that to your own peril. And accept what some scribe added to Scripture later.
I believe that's called "opinion", something you've shown disdain for. So why accept the opinion of some obscure scribe?
Last edited:
Paul did not de-emphasize water baptism in any size, shape of form.
Paul emphasized that he was glad the he himself did not water baptize many people, because of the people being divided, into following Paul thinking they were baptized in the name of Paul.
That is the point Paul made in 1 Corinthians 1:14-15
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
1 Corinthians 1:14-15
Here it is in plain and clear words: lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
If you are not going to post the scripture with the actual language that the scriptures use, to make your point, then I will not address your questions or your post's.
JLB
I said this:
"To demonstrate my faith publicly. Why else?
btw, where did I ever even suggest that water baptism wasn't necessary?
Define what is meant by "necessary" so I can properly respond to your false charge."
So, water baptism doesn't save anyone. It's a public confession of one's faith, which DOES save.
"To demonstrate my faith publicly. Why else?
btw, where did I ever even suggest that water baptism wasn't necessary?
Define what is meant by "necessary" so I can properly respond to your false charge."
Which is what I said. To demonstrate one's faith publicly is a public confession. Which does NOT save anyone.
So, water baptism doesn't save anyone. It's a public confession of one's faith, which DOES save.
If you want to teach people to ignore Mark 16:16-18, because it is "not really scripture", then that will be for you to explain to Jesus Christ, on the Day of Judgement.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:16-18
JLB
Please be aware that they passed through water without getting wet, or being immersed. The one who were actually and literally immersed in water DIED. All of them. Noah and the 7 were saved in fact FROM drowning in the water because of the ark.
This clearly shows that water immersion doesn't save. It kills. Same for the Egyptian soldiers who also were immersed in the Red Sea, while the Jews crossed the Red Sea on dry ground, yet Paul says they were baptised INTO Moses and in the sea. No water in either of thoe baptisms.
JLB said: ↑
Sorry you don't understand what I said.
Sorry you don't understand what I said.
It's quite sad that he wasn't even willing to resolve the problem.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
Freegrace, Is water baptism necessary for anything biblical?
JLB
There is no problem, with me, because I believe we are to be baptized, and because I believe we are to be baptized, I obey and have been baptized.
In addition, I teach people who ask, that they should be baptized as well, to be obedient to the Lord and those He sent.
JLB
Since these verses are NOT in the earliest manuscripts, there is no reason to accept the opinion of some obscure scribe who added his own thoughts to inspired Scripture.
Do you accept the opinion of this obscure scribe as being inspired by God to add to what was already writtten?
For some reason, I have doubts that I'll receive any answer to this.
32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33
JLB
I said this:
"To demonstrate my faith publicly. Why else?
btw, where did I ever even suggest that water baptism wasn't necessary?
Define what is meant by "necessary" so I can properly respond to your false charge."
btw, I notice you didn't provide a definition of what is meant by "necessary".
So, I'll ask again: necessary FOR WHAT, specifically?
"To demonstrate my faith publicly. Why else?
btw, where did I ever even suggest that water baptism wasn't necessary?
Define what is meant by "necessary" so I can properly respond to your false charge."
Opinion from some obscure scribe. Not inspired by God.
I've already indicated what it is necessary for. Please read my posts before asking unnecessary questions.
btw, I notice you didn't provide a definition of what is meant by "necessary".
So, I'll ask again: necessary FOR WHAT, specifically?