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The topic, 'And these signs shall follow them that believe' (Mk 16:17 KJV) in the Apologetics forum, has morphed into a discussion of baptismal regeneration.

Jim Parker at post #103 stated:

Jesus specifically DID SAY that you have to be born again (regenerated) in water AND in spirit at John 3:3-5.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

In THAT passage, Jesus IS talking about being born again (regenerated) in water AND in the Spirit.​

Is Jim advocating a biblical position? What are your reasons for support or rejection of the need to be baptised to be saved? Remember, Mark 16:16 (ESV) states: 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned'.

Blessings in Christ,
Oz
 
Last edited:
There is a deeper yet simpler meaning to ...
...unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(part of John 3:5)
That is, one needs to be prepared in faith (unconditional surrender / humbleness), the water part, for receiving the Truth (Spirit / Holy Spirit / Spirit of Truth), the Spirit part. It is then we can discern the Truth, by being in Christ, via the Holy Spirit received in us. This state of communion is entering the kingdom of God - which is Truth, and the Truth will set you free from the enslavement of our ego-fears (where all fear comes from). This is salvation on earth.

Being a Truth-filled Christian is to be in Spirit with Christ / God / Truth. This is the salvation of our spirit of eternal life. Otherwise our spirit will be atrophied by all our conditional fears instead of being nourished by unconditional Truths.
 
There is a deeper yet simpler meaning to ...
(part of John 3:5)
That is, one needs to be prepared in faith (unconditional surrender / humbleness), the water part, for receiving the Truth (Spirit / Holy Spirit / Spirit of Truth), the Spirit part. It is then we can discern the Truth, by being in Christ, via the Holy Spirit received in us. This state of communion is entering the kingdom of God - which is Truth, and the Truth will set you free from the enslavement of our ego-fears (where all fear comes from). This is salvation on earth.

Being a Truth-filled Christian is to be in Spirit with Christ / God / Truth. This is the salvation of our spirit of eternal life. Otherwise our spirit will be atrophied by all our conditional fears instead of being nourished by unconditional Truths.

Hermit,

However, what is the meaning of 'unless one is born of water and Spirit/spirit'?

Oz
 
Hi Oz,

To me John 3:3 has Always meant physical Birth and spiritual Birth.

John baptized for repentance as a preparation for the coming of the Christ.
Jesus said to be baptized for power to witness.
Acts 1:8 The apostles were to wait for the Holy Spirit which did indwell the Apostles in Acts 2:4.

Then we are told that we are to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus.
Jesus' baptism is a baptism of power and indwelling of the Spirit, not only of repenetace, as was John's.

In John 3:3 Jesus says one must be born again, or born from above.
This means that one must be BORN twice.
One physically and once spiritually.
Nicodemus even asks Jesus HOW one could go back into the mother's womb.
John 3:4

But then in John 3:5 Jesus says that if one is not born of WATER and of SPIRIT, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Here water would seem to signify baptism and not physical Birth. Also, mainline denominations teach that it refers to baptism, as do the early theologians of the Church.

In Mathew 28:19 Jesus did say to go and teach and BAPTISE, so I have some difficulty with this. Apparently, Jesus said baptism is very important. Baptism is WATER, as in John 3:5.

But is being baptised in water being born twice?
Wouldn't one be born the second time at BELIEVING?
It seems to me that the change in a person that is brought by faith BEGINS AT BELIEVING, and is not put off until baptism.

I tend to believe that we are regenerated at BELIEVING and this is sealed at baptism, or confirmed at baptism, or the power to witness is received at baptism.

If we were never baptized, wouldn't we still be living a changed and Christian life?
Yes. I believe so.

Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled --- that's pretty much how I feel !
 
Hermit,
However, what is the meaning of 'unless one is born of water and Spirit/spirit'?..
Reborn from our old nature of a life based on conditional fears (self-deception) to a new nature of life based on unconditional love (God given Truths of the Greater Reality both in the visible and invisible realms).

The "unless" bit refers to the only way to see/grasp/know intuitively (by faith) what the Truth is about the deeper reality of who we are. Otherwise our knowing is based only on what our flesh (body-mind) can determine, hence reasoned knowledge. In regards to who we are by reason, the mind originally could not make sense of itself because the brain has no nerve-ends of its own (cannot feel itself). So the mind fabricated a story of identity to make sense of itself. This story is called our ego. The mind knows it is invalid, but does not want to lose it for fear of losing itself awareness. That is why the ego is so protective of its self-esteem and always seeking validation.

The spirit/soul-mind determines what is real and true with the aid of our God given Spirit of Truth. This Truth reveals that we are not here for the ego-self (false identity). It also reveals that the Truth is in itself doubtless. fearless, incorruptible and unconditional (it can stand and be understood without needing (conditional) an explanation. To access this knowing without reasoning is to be in communion (mind with Spirit, or soul-mind) to discern the unexplainable Truth.
 
Hermit,

However, what is the meaning of 'unless one is born of water and Spirit/spirit'?

Oz
I'll take a stab. Jesus was talking with Nicodemus "the teacher of Israel." Don't think he had any concept of Christian baptism.

So I think we need to go to TaNaKh.

Ezekiel 36: NKJV

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

I think this is something Nicodemus would know as the teacher of Israel. The TaNaKh use of water as purification for rituals is referred to as making one clean physically to approach the ark of the covenant. Notice the doing here is from God.

In the NT we are told the Blood of Christ was shed for the remission of sins.

In John 3 Jesus is alluding to one must be washed clean and be born of the Spirit.
 
Hi Oz,

To me John 3:3 has Always meant physical Birth and spiritual Birth.

John baptized for repentance as a preparation for the coming of the Christ.
Jesus said to be baptized for power to witness.
Acts 1:8 The apostles were to wait for the Holy Spirit which did indwell the Apostles in Acts 2:4.

Then we are told that we are to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus.
Jesus' baptism is a baptism of power and indwelling of the Spirit, not only of repenetace, as was John's.

In John 3:3 Jesus says one must be born again, or born from above.
This means that one must be BORN twice.
One physically and once spiritually.
Nicodemus even asks Jesus HOW one could go back into the mother's womb.
John 3:4

But then in John 3:5 Jesus says that if one is not born of WATER and of SPIRIT, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Here water would seem to signify baptism and not physical Birth. Also, mainline denominations teach that it refers to baptism, as do the early theologians of the Church.

In Mathew 28:19 Jesus did say to go and teach and BAPTISE, so I have some difficulty with this. Apparently, Jesus said baptism is very important. Baptism is WATER, as in John 3:5.

But is being baptised in water being born twice?
Wouldn't one be born the second time at BELIEVING?
It seems to me that the change in a person that is brought by faith BEGINS AT BELIEVING, and is not put off until baptism.

I tend to believe that we are regenerated at BELIEVING and this is sealed at baptism, or confirmed at baptism, or the power to witness is received at baptism.

If we were never baptized, wouldn't we still be living a changed and Christian life?
Yes. I believe so.

Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled --- that's pretty much how I feel !

Good to hear from you wondering. I only have time to pick up on a couple points. My house is for sale & I have a lot of cleaning & tidying to do.

Take Matt 28:18-20 (ESV),

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”​

Here Jesus states that baptizing is associated with making disciples of all nations. To make disciples is AFTER salvation. So baptism here is not associated with receiving regeneration/salvation, but with growth in the faith - sanctification.

Acts 1:8 (ESV) states, 'But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”'

This is the Holy Spirit coming UPON people and not INTO people.

John 3:5 does not say, 'born of WATER and of SPIRIT'. There is only one 'of' in the Greek. So 'born of water and Spirit' should point us to a solution. Is it baptismal regeneration or something else?

Oz
 
I'll take a stab. Jesus was talking with Nicodemus "the teacher of Israel." Don't think he had any concept of Christian baptism.

So I think we need to go to TaNaKh.

Ezekiel 36: NKJV

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

I think this is something Nicodemus would know as the teacher of Israel. The TaNaKh use of water as purification for rituals is referred to as making one clean physically to approach the ark of the covenant. Notice the doing here is from God.

In the NT we are told the Blood of Christ was shed for the remission of sins.

In John 3 Jesus is alluding to one must be washed clean and be born of the Spirit.

Pegasus,

That's a very observant and helpful post IMO. You examined John 3:5 in context, especially since the statement was directed to Nicodemus.

What follows in John 3:6ff helps us in interpreting what Jesus was getting at in John 3:5.

Oz
 
Reborn from our old nature of a life based on conditional fears (self-deception) to a new nature of life based on unconditional love (God given Truths of the Greater Reality both in the visible and invisible realms).

The "unless" bit refers to the only way to see/grasp/know intuitively (by faith) what the Truth is about the deeper reality of who we are. Otherwise our knowing is based only on what our flesh (body-mind) can determine, hence reasoned knowledge. In regards to who we are by reason, the mind originally could not make sense of itself because the brain has no nerve-ends of its own (cannot feel itself). So the mind fabricated a story of identity to make sense of itself. This story is called our ego. The mind knows it is invalid, but does not want to lose it for fear of losing itself awareness. That is why the ego is so protective of its self-esteem and always seeking validation.

The spirit/soul-mind determines what is real and true with the aid of our God given Spirit of Truth. This Truth reveals that we are not here for the ego-self (false identity). It also reveals that the Truth is in itself doubtless. fearless, incorruptible and unconditional (it can stand and be understood without needing (conditional) an explanation. To access this knowing without reasoning is to be in communion (mind with Spirit, or soul-mind) to discern the unexplainable Truth.

Hermit,

You have some good points here, but it doesn't help with the exegesis of John 3:5, 'born of water and the Spirit'.

Oz
 
My sharing is a story. One that has troubled me for many years. I think about 30. First a quick background.

I was taught at an early age that baptism is necessary for salvation. I never challenged it because the adults, I supposed, knew the Bible well.

I went to college later in life. I was 34. It was a Christian Bible College https://unwsp.edu/ and we had lots of opportunities to have discussions on various topics. One day, during lunch with a fellow believer, (he was an older student too) while we conversed (probably over the topic of salvation) I blurted out, "I don't see how anyone can call themselves a Christian if they haven't been baptized. " I expected a response like, "Me too!" But instead his face fell and the look still haunts me to this day. I knew immediately what I had done. But it was too late. I had crushed him. He was a relatively new Christian (maybe a year?) Why he hadn't been baptized I don't know. But he was on fire for God and very serious about his faith.

Our relationship never recovered. I had hurt him too deeply. And I was mad at God a long time for allowing me to hurt another person with my ignorance. I went to a professor and found out, for the first time, that the topic of baptismal regeneration existed and was controversial. I had a lot of studying to do.

Today I believe simply that salvation is Jesus plus nothing. I go no further. That's salvation. It's all about what Jesus has done. Believe.

From there, I simply tell people, if you claim now to be a follower of Jesus, go follow. Do what he says and don't do the things he taught us to avoid. We're taught to be baptized as believers so go get dunked. Get in the word, do the best with the knowledge you have. Love others. Be a servant. Seek to know Him more. None of this saves you, but it is what saved people are called to do.
 
i picked this commentator at random i give you a background on his education

Albert Barnes (1798-1870) was an American theologian, born at Rome, New York, on December 1, 1798. He graduated from Hamilton College, Clinton, New York, in 1820, and from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1823. Barnes was ordained as a Presbyterian minister by the presbytery of Elizabethtown, New Jersey, in 1825, and was the pastor successively of the Presbyterian Church in Morristown, New Jersey (1825-1830), and of the First Presbyterian Church of Philadelphia (1830-1867).

He held a prominent place in the New School branch of the Presbyterians during the Old School-New School Controversy, to which he adhered on the division of the denomination in 1837; he had been tried (but not convicted) for heresy in 1836, the charge being particularly against the views expressed by him in Notes on Romans (1835) of the imputation of the sin of Adam, original sin and the atonement; the bitterness stirred up by this trial contributed towards widening the breach between the conservative and the progressive elements in the church. He was an eloquent preacher, but his reputation rests chiefly on his expository works, which are said to have had a larger circulation both in Europe and America than any others of their class.

Of the well-known Notes on the New Testament, it is said that more than a million volumes had been issued by 1870. The Notes on Job, the Psalms, Isaiah and Daniel found scarcely less acceptance. Displaying no original critical power, their chief merit lies in the fact that they bring in a popular (but not always accurate) form the results of the criticism of others within the reach of general readers. Barnes was the author of several other works of a practical and devotional kind, including Scriptural Views of Slavery (1846) and The Way of Salvation (1863). A collection of his Theological Works was published in Philadelphia in 1875.

In his famous 1852 oratory, "What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?", Frederick Douglass quoted Barnes as saying: "There is no power out of the church that could sustain slavery an hour, if it were not sustained in it."

Barnes died in Philadelphia on December 24, 1870.

Verse 5
Be born of water - By “water,” here, is evidently signified “baptism.” Thus the word is used in Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5. Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. It was practiced by John among the Jews; and Jesus here says that it is an ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit. So he said Mark 16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” It is clear from these places, and from the example of the apostles Acts 2:38, Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12-13, Acts 8:36, Acts 8:38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:47-48; Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; Acts 22:16; Galatians 3:27, that they considered this ordinance as binding on all who professed to love the Lord Jesus. And though it cannot be said that none who are not baptized can be saved, yet Jesus meant, undoubtedly, to be understood as affirming that this was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church; that it was the appropriate mode of making a profession of religion; and that a man who neglected this, when the duty was made known to him, neglected a plain command of God. It is clear, also, that any other command of God might as well be neglected or violated as this, and that it is the duty of everyone not only to love the Saviour, but to make an acknowledgment of that love by being baptized, and by devoting himself thus to his service.

But, lest Nicodemus should suppose that this was all that was meant, he added that it was necessary that he should “be born of the Spirit” also. This was predicted of the Saviour, that he should “baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire,” Matthew 3:11. By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence. This great change is in the Scripture ascribed uniformly to the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; Romans 5:5; 1 Peter 1:22.

Cannot enter into - This is the way, the appropriate way, of entering into the kingdom of the Messiah here and hereafter. He cannot enter into the true church here, or into heaven in the world to come, except in connection with a change of heart, and by the proper expression of that change in the ordinances appointed by the Saviour.
 
Be born again - The word translated here “again” means also “from above,” and is so rendered in the margin. It is evident, however, that Nicodemus understood, it not as referring to a birth “from above,” for if he had he would not have asked the question in John 3:4. It is probable that in the language which he used there was not the same ambiguity that there is in the Greek. The ancient versions all understood it as meaning “again,” or the “second time.” Our natural birth introduces us to light, is the commencement of life, throws us amid the works of God, and is the beginning of our existence; but it also introduces us to a world of sin. We early go astray. All men transgress. The imagination of the thoughts of the heart is evil from the youth up. We are conceived in sin and brought forth in iniquity, and there is none that doeth good, no, not one. The carnal mind is enmity against God, and by nature we are dead in trespasses and sins, Genesis 8:21; Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 51:5; Romans 1:29-32; Romans 3:10-20; Romans 8:7.

All sin exposes men to misery here and hereafter. To escape from sin, to be happy in the world to come, it is necessary that man should be changed in his principles, his feelings, and his manner of life. This change, or the beginning of this new life, is called the “new birth,” or “regeneration.” It is so called because in many respects it has a striking analogy to the natural birth. It is the beginning of spiritual life. It introduces us to the light of the gospel. It is the moment when we really begin to live to any purpose. It is the moment when God reveals himself to us as our reconciled Father, and we are adopted into his family as his sons. And as every man is a sinner, it is necessary that each one should experience this change, or he cannot be happy or saved. This doctrine was not unknown to the Jews, and was particularly predicted as a doctrine that would be taught in the times of the Messiah. See Deuteronomy 10:16; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:25; Psalm 51:12. The change in the New Testament is elsewhere called the “new creation”2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15, and “life from the dead,” or a resurrection, Ephesians 2:1; John 5:21,John 5:24.
i will post a 2nd one in nest post ..while i do not need a commentary to show me water does not save us..bit i did lake " Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte." symbolic speaking we was a gentile one could even say a proselyte.
Proselyte

The biblical term "proselyte" is an anglicization of the Koine Greek term προσήλυτος, as used in the Septuagint for "stranger", i.e. a "newcomer to Israel"; a "sojourner in the land", and in the Greek New Testament for a first century convert to Judaism,
 
III. THE NEW BIRTH EXPLAINED (John 3:4-6 )

1. The question asked. "How can a man be born when he is old?" This was what Nicodemus asked. We, too, stand before the new birth with a great question mark. We know more about it than Nicodemus knew, to be sure, and yet we cannot humanly explain it. We cannot explain the birth of a flower. How much less can we explain the birth of a soul.

2. The question answered. Jesus Christ, in reply to Nicodemus, told him "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

(1) To be born of water is to be born of the Word of God. In Titus 3:5 is this statement: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." In Ephesians we read "that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word." I Peter speaks thus: "Being born again * * by the Word of God." James said, "Of His own will begat He us by the Word of Truth."

(2) Being born of the Spirit speaks of regeneration by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Word of God is the seed implanted in the heart. The Spirit is the One who germinates and brings into fruitage of life the implanted Word. Christ added these remarkable words in order to contrast the physical and the spiritual birth. In John 3:6 , He said. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Let no man, therefore, vainly imagine that the flesh has any power to beget the Spirit. Kind begets only its kind. Flesh begets flesh; spirit begets spirit. The one is begotten no more truly than the other.

We are born of physical parents; we are, also, born of the Holy Ghost of God when we are born again. The one birth is just as actual a birth, as the other. We are just as much the sons of God, as we are the sons of our natural parents. It was spoken concerning Mary, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, * * therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Of every regenerate believer, it may be just as truly said: The Spirit of God comes upon such an one, and such an one was born in righteousness and in true holiness because he is the son of God.

IV. THE "MUST" OF REGENERATION (John 3:7 )

This is the shortest verse in this study, and perhaps the most profound. It may not have the width or the breadth of some of the other verses, but it has tremendous depth. "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." Christ places on the new birth, the eternal "must" of Heaven. He makes the new birth absolutely necessary.

1. The must of the new birth shows the utter inability of the flesh to inherit eternal life. The flesh is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.

There is not a just man on the earth that doeth good, and sinneth not. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption. They that live after the flesh cannot see God.

2. The must of the new birth shows the utter inability of the flesh to produce the new life. The righteousness of the Law of God cannot be fulfilled by the flesh, therefore the flesh cannot save. If the flesh cannot impart a new birth, we must be born from above. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou nearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

The new birth is full of mysteries just as the first birth is mysterious. A colored man who was operating a sailboat most successfully against adverse winds was thus questioned: "Mose, you must understand thephilosophy of the wind?" He replied, "It is not necessary to know the philosophy of the wind. All you need to do is to know how to handle the sail." So, also, we do not understand how the Spirit may come or go, but we know how to throw up the sails of our faith, and catch the breath of the Spirit; then, God doeth the rest.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/lwc/john.html
 
dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 12:13 settles the question for me. It is state in that verse "For by one Spirit are we baptized into one body." As I understand scripture, this with the statement that is made about John the baptizer is all that is necessary for me to understand that water baptism has no place in salvation for the believer.

John 15:3, " Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."
Ephesians 5:26, " That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word."
John 17:17, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
 
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


We cannot be saved by our own works of righteousness which we have done. According to his mercy, he saves us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

When the Spirit of Christ dwells within us we become transformed by the renewing of our minds. In the regeneration, our Salvation is realized and eternal life is our reward.


Although we are presently corruptible we will be clothed with incorruption, and our mortal bodies will become immortal (Mat 19:28, Titus 3:5, Rom 12:2, 1 Cor 15:50-54).

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



He saves us or will save us if we endure until the end.

When the Spirit of Truth, which proceeds from Jesus Christ, dwells in us, we can then begin to understand the Gospel message and the peace of God which passes all understanding.


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized (with the Holy Spirit) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned


Although several words are added to this verse, baptized with the Holy Spirit is the true intended meaning.


Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


Those who shall be damned are the ones who die in their sins without coming to realize that they are in need of a Savior.


They are not damned however until they face the judgment at Christ’s return.


Likewise, those who are Saved are the ones that are able to escape the wrath of His judgment because they have been truly sealed (John 6:27).


Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


When we combine Luke 3:16, with Mark 16:16, and Romans 8:9, It is evident that whosoever believes in Jesus Christ, and is baptized with the Holy Spirit shall be saved. He that believes not, however, shall be damned.


You are saved when you are saved, and as the word of God declares he who endures unto the end shall be saved. Salvation is a future occurrence.


John baptized with water, but he spoke of Christ who would baptize with the Holy Spirit which is a necessary part of the Salvation process.


Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
 
The topic, 'And these signs shall follow them that believe' (Mk 16:17 KJV) in the Apologetics forum, has morphed into a discussion of baptismal regeneration.

Jim Parker at post #103 stated:

Jesus specifically DID SAY that you have to be born again (regenerated) in water AND in spirit at John 3:3-5.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

In THAT passage, Jesus IS talking about being born again (regenerated) in water AND in the Spirit.​

Is Jim advocating a biblical position? What are your reasons for support or rejection of the need to be baptised to be saved? Remember, Mark 16:16 (ESV) states: 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned'.

Blessings in Christ,
Oz

The only way to be regenerated is by being Baptized into the body of Christ, by the Spirit.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is not water baptism.


There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

  • one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again


A person must be born first, in order to be born "again".

The next verse teaches us this truth -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Born of flesh = Natural birth
Born of the Spirit = Spiritual birth.


Jesus used natural birth to illustrate Spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

earthly thing = natural birth
heavenly thing = Spiritual birth




JLB
 
No it does not. That is why one needs to be baptized to grasp a knowing without exegesis.

I have been baptised as a believer. You won't know the meaning of Scripture without knowing how to get the meaning out of the text (called exegesis) and seeking the Spirit's help in understanding the text.

Oz
 
Hermit,
You have some good points here, but it doesn't help with the exegesis of John 3:5, 'born of water and the Spirit'.
Oz
I have been baptised as a believer. You won't know the meaning of Scripture without knowing how to get the meaning out of the text (called exegesis) and seeking the Spirit's help in understanding the text.
Oz
The Spirit knows the Truth of the text. The Spirit does not need us to first know the meaning of the scripture before we accept the understanding. You mention 'seeking the Spirits help'. The Spirit of Truth is not conditional in revealing the Truth. It is waiting for us to get out of the way (to be unconditional/humble) so it can present the Truth to us unconditionally. It is us who has to stop being conditional, such as following a path of exegesis, and then seeking the Spirit's help.

Personally, theology has a lot to answer for the misunderstandings of scripture.
 
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