Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[Danus]

That's a fair question. We first "hear" about the "Grace of God" through the Bible, and of course, The Spirit uses that word to bring us to the knowledge that, we are sinners, lost and condemned without a Savior. (conviction) God however, does not force us to believe that knowledge and place our faith in it. Nor does the Spirit use force to bring us to salvation. God does not do this because, He has given us a "free-will" to come to Him. He wants us to come to Him of our own choice and free-will (that He gave all of us) and not because we've been coerced or forced or even chosen...

Reformist, Calvin, would agree up to the point of your definition of Free Will, or should I say the nature of Free Will.

No one says that God forces people to believe. What's at issue is does God choose people to be saved, calling them who are chosen elect for salvation. The bible says he does, God says he does.

The counter argument is not a disagreement that the bible says this, or that God says this. the counter argument is ...THAT'S NOT FAIR!

To make it seem fair, people reconstruct the nature of God, the nature of man and the relationship between the two in saying that God gives man a choice when in fact God says over and over that man will not choose him, man is full of sin to the core, man must be regenerated and that he in fact chooses the elect before man can have any hope for salvation. He further illustrates this notion all thought out the bible and yet, there are those who just don't accept it, which backs up what God says about man to begin with. That he not only will not accept him, he can not accept him.

However, if you think it's not fair, that God in fact chooses the elect, your right. It's not fair; It's JUST. It's not only just, it shows the full measure of God's justice, sovereignty, mercy and glory. This does not mean you have to believe or understand this theological understanding to be saved. It does not mean your not elect.

Tell you what, if you have any questions about the reformist view, or Calvan that you would like to ask me, I am here to ask.

I am not attempting to discredit the Armenian view on salvation. It's no threat to me, or to ones Salvation. It's a road block to fully understanding the bible, but not one that God does not deal with. Armenians reach a point of full understanding all the time, and it does not make them Calvinist, or any more saved, or liked by God...none of that, however, don't let John Calvin threaten you. try instead to reach a real understanding of why the reformist view is what it is to those it is to.

Recommended reading, and I think you will like this. The book is called "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul. It's very good and it will open you up to a wider world. Try it out when you can. here is a link to Amazon on it. You can even look inside the book on this link.

http://www.amazon.com/Chosen-God-R-C-Sproul/dp/0842313354

 

[glorydaz]

No one says that God forces people to believe. What's at issue is does God choose people to be saved, calling them who are chosen elect for salvation. The bible says he does, God says he does.

The counter argument is not a disagreement that the bible says this, or that God says this. the counter argument is ...THAT'S NOT FAIR!

I'll pick up where Grubal left off, no sense repeating what he's correctly stated.

This has nothing to do with being fair. It has everything to do with how we understand a few key verses in the Bible. I disagree the Bible says God chooses who will be saved (and therefore who will be damned.)

Chosen from the foundation of the world refers to those who would come by faith. Although He foreknew who would believe, who he chose was not Tom, Dick, and Harry. He chose a peculiar people, predestined unto adoption to be children of God.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Just as God chose a peculiar people to be holy (Israel)....a nation, not individuals.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

He chose those who would come by faith to be a peculiar people...a royal priesthood (of believers).

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Reformist, Calvin, would agree up to the point of your definition of Free Will, or should I say the nature of Free Will.

No one says that God forces people to believe. What's at issue is does God choose people to be saved, calling them who are chosen elect for salvation. The bible says he does, God says he does.

The counter argument is not a disagreement that the bible says this, or that God says this. the counter argument is ...THAT'S NOT FAIR!

To make it seem fair, people reconstruct the nature of God, the nature of man and the relationship between the two in saying that God gives man a choice when in fact God says over and over that man will not choose him, man is full of sin to the core, man must be regenerated and that he in fact chooses the elect before man can have any hope for salvation. He further illustrates this notion all thought out the bible and yet, there are those who just don't accept it, which backs up what God says about man to begin with. That he not only will not accept him, he can not accept him.

However, if you think it's not fair, that God in fact chooses the elect, your right. It's not fair; It's JUST. It's not only just, it shows the full measure of God's justice, sovereignty, mercy and glory. This does not mean you have to believe or understand this theological understanding to be saved. It does not mean your not elect.

Tell you what, if you have any questions about the reformist view, or Calvan that you would like to ask me, I am here to ask.

I am not attempting to discredit the Armenian view on salvation. It's no threat to me, or to ones Salvation. It's a road block to fully understanding the bible, but not one that God does not deal with. Armenians reach a point of full understanding all the time, and it does not make them Calvinist, or any more saved, or liked by God...none of that, however, don't let John Calvin threaten you. try instead to reach a real understanding of why the reformist view is what it is to those it is to.

Recommended reading, and I think you will like this. The book is called "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul. It's very good and it will open you up to a wider world. Try it out when you can. here is a link to Amazon on it. You can even look inside the book on this link.

http://www.amazon.com/Chosen-God-R-C-Sproul/dp/0842313354

Danus-----No one says that God forces people to believe. What's at issue is does God choose people to be saved, calling them who are chosen elect for salvation. The bible says he does, God says he does.

Grubal-----Could you use direct versus to back up your stand, please?? People ARE basically "forced" to believe due to the "elect" program of which Calvin taught...What else would you call it, if you had no choice in the matter?? You would call it forced, chosen, or perhaps picked. It's all just "semantics" when it boils down to it...Either way you had no "choice" in the matter...

Danus-----The counter argument is not a disagreement that the bible says this, or that God says this. the counter argument is ...THAT'S NOT FAIR!

Grubal---- No the counter argument is, we are not chosen, we have a choice in the matter...A God given choice...

Danus-----To make it seem fair, people reconstruct the nature of God, the nature of man and the relationship between the two in saying that God gives man a choice when in fact God says over and over that man will not choose him, man is full of sin to the core, man must be regenerated and that he in fact chooses the elect before man can have any hope for salvation. He further illustrates this notion all thought out the bible and yet, there are those who just don't accept it, which backs up what God says about man to begin with. That he not only will not accept him, he can not accept him.

Grubal-----So your saying that "some" people (unmentioned here out of courtesy) change the truth and twist it to something that they can live with?? Rather than seek truth through the Scripture, sort of a "politically correct" thought process, in order for them to except the bitter medication of truth?? I don't wish to put words in your mouth but, is that what your saying??

Danus----- in fact God says over and over that man will not choose him, man is full of sin to the core, man must be regenerated

Grubal---- It's true, if you take the message of God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ, and the Holy Spirit out of the equation, then man would not come to God...However, if we add these two back into the equation, we then have a formula for the Salvation of those who will place their faith in Christ, be born-again and placed in the body of Christ and henceforth, called a "child of God...

Danus-----That he not only will not accept him, he can not accept him.

Grubal-----Man will not accept, (without the striving of the Spirit, and the message of God's Grace,) God....Man has an opportunity to become a child of God, through Christ's work on the cross and by placing his faith in that same Christ...

Danus-----However, if you think it's not fair, that God in fact chooses the elect, your right. It's not fair; It's JUST. It's not only just, it shows the full measure of God's justice, sovereignty, mercy and glory. This does not mean you have to believe or understand this theological understanding to be saved. It does not mean your not elect.

Grubal-----God would be within His right's to condemn ALL of humanity, to eternal separation and punishment...That would be "just" for a perfect righteous God...However, because of His love for man, and the worth He see's in man, He sent His Son to die for "our" combined sins... And His mercy and forgiveness is offered to ALL of humanity... To those who will place their faith in His Son, as their Lord and Savior.....

Danus-----Tell you what, if you have any questions about the reformist view, or Calvan that you would like to ask me, I am here to ask.
Grubal-----I know about Calvin and his doctrines, there was a time, many year's ago, (maybe before you were born or per chance, you were very young) that I too bought into Calvin's teaching. And have, long since left the "Calvin camp."

I do appreciate your offer though, and also appreciate your "civil" attitude while sparring on this topic...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'll pick up where Grubal left off, no sense repeating what he's correctly stated.

This has nothing to do with being fair. It has everything to do with how we understand a few key verses in the Bible. I disagree the Bible says God chooses who will be saved (and therefore who will be damned.)

Chosen from the foundation of the world refers to those who would come by faith. Although He foreknew who would believe, who he chose was not Tom, Dick, and Harry. He chose a peculiar people, predestined unto adoption to be children of God.

Just as God chose a peculiar people to be holy (Israel)....a nation, not individuals.

He chose those who would come by faith to be a peculiar people...a royal priesthood (of believers).

AMEN!!!

 

[Danus]

I'll pick up where Grubal left off, no sense repeating what he's correctly stated.

This has nothing to do with being fair. It has everything to do with how we understand a few key verses in the Bible. I disagree the Bible says God chooses who will be saved (and therefore who will be damned.)

Chosen from the foundation of the world refers to those who would come by faith. Although He foreknew who would believe, who he chose was not Tom, Dick, and Harry. He chose a peculiar people, predestined unto adoption to be children of God.

Just as God chose a peculiar people to be holy (Israel)....a nation, not individuals.

He chose those who would come by faith to be a peculiar people...a royal priesthood (of believers).

AMEN!!!

Well, I've spent some time in prayer before responding to you guys. ;)

Basically if you want to trust your free will for your will in your life, then your free to do that.

As for me, I have given my own will up when I became born again, regenerated. The thing I find most amazing about God is being captured by God, but more than that having the type of faith that he has given me to put aside my will and trust only in his will. My only hope beyond that is that other may know this also, but just as I can not save anyone. All I can do is point it out, explain it as best I can and encourage you. Weather Ive done that or not, is of no bother to me since I can only say I've done what I could.

God bless you both. I'll leave you with a few scriptures to ponder for yourselves.

"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14 ESV).

"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matt. 24:22 ESV).

"And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night" (Luke 18:7 NIV)?

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen" (John 13:18a NASB).

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16a NKJV).

"this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

"For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB).

 

[glorydaz]

Well, I've spent some time in prayer before responding to you guys. ;)

Basically if you want to trust your free will for your will in your life, then your free to do that.

As for me, I have given my own will up when I became born again, regenerated. The thing I find most amazing about God is being captured by God, but more than that having the type of faith that he has given me to put aside my will and trust only in his will. My only hope beyond that is that other may know this also, but just as I can not save anyone. All I can do is point it out, explain it as best I can and encourage you. Weather Ive done that or not, is of no bother to me since I can only say I've done what I could.

God bless you both. I'll leave you with a few scriptures to ponder for yourselves.

"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14 ESV).

"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matt. 24:22 ESV).

"And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night" (Luke 18:7 NIV)?

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen" (John 13:18a NASB).

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16a NKJV).

"this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

"For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB).

Whoa up there....After we accept Christ as our Saviour, and He has circumcized our hearts, we are new creatures. When Christ is in us, we are to put on the mind of Christ. Of course a believer will surrender his will to His master, although that's an on-going process of sanctification. The more we mature in the Lord, the better we become at it, but no one can claim they totally surrender all their will all the time. That's why we're chastened of the Lord when we don't respond exactly as we should. Our will is our mind...we're in the process of renewing our mind to be conformed to the image of God. I'm not sure where you got the idea because we're free to choose life by accepting God's free gift of salvation that we somehow don't understand how to live in the Spirit.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Whoa up there....After we accept Christ as our Saviour, and He has circumcized our hearts, we are new creatures. When Christ is in us, we are to put on the mind of Christ. Of course a believer will surrender his will to His master, although that's an on-going process of sanctification. The more we mature in the Lord, the better we become at it, but no one can claim they totally surrender all their will all the time. That's why we're chastened of the Lord when we don't respond exactly as we should. Our will is our mind...we're in the process of renewing our mind to be conformed to the image of God. I'm not sure where you got the idea because we're free to choose life by accepting God's free gift of salvation that we somehow don't understand how to live in the Spirit.

AMEN!!!

 

[Danus]

Whoa up there....After we accept Christ as our Saviour, and He has circumcized our hearts, we are new creatures. When Christ is in us, we are to put on the mind of Christ. Of course a believer will surrender his will to His master, although that's an on-going process of sanctification. The more we mature in the Lord, the better we become at it, but no one can claim they totally surrender all their will all the time. That's why we're chastened of the Lord when we don't respond exactly as we should. Our will is our mind...we're in the process of renewing our mind to be conformed to the image of God. I'm not sure where you got the idea because we're free to choose life by accepting God's free gift of salvation that we somehow don't understand how to live in the Spirit.

:...I've no idea quite what you said. All I know from what you have said is that you do things your way by your own free will. So God can take you or leave you based on your choice.Your welcome to him, but if you don't, no big deal, but if you do all you have to do is walk the line and if you get out of line your out of the God club I guess and you'll need to use your free will to get back in. Hey that works for you cool.

I can't speak to that. All I know is that I've been captured by a God that I never wanted, and I am at peace with it, because I am renewed by him. It really does not matter what I think of your relationship with God because it's none of my business.

All I can tell you is about my relationship with God and that their is nothing I do in this relationship other than trust in his will for me not my will for myself. That's what I do and in that I grow daily for what he does and not what I do. I am nothing, he is everything.

I figure God has given you something quite special indeed, or should I say your faith and abilities are quite special. Not only has he given you a free will, but you have been able to use your free will to make the right decisions to follow him. . I think that's fantastic. I would never have done that with my free will, but I applaud you guys, I really do. Why God waste his time with me I'll never know, but I am so blessed he has chosen me for salvation. I can't explain it. All I recall is giving up, and the moment that I did him talking over.

You'd think he would do for everyone what he's done for me, but I guess he has different rules for those with the strong Will and determination to follow him in the first place and be righteous like him. I am impressed, and I know you guys live a Godly life in deed, with few mishaps that you can't at least be redeemed again and again through prayer. Speaking of prayers, here is a prayer you might like to say to God...you know, to thank him. It's just a suggestion but I thought you guys might like it. Check it out.

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

:...I've no idea quite what you said. All I know from what you have said is that you do things your way by your own free will. So God can take you or leave you based on your choice.Your welcome to him, but if you don't, no big deal, but if you do all you have to do is walk the line and if you get out of line your out of the God club I guess and you'll need to use your free will to get back in. Hey that works for you cool.

I can't speak to that. All I know is that I've been captured by a God that I never wanted, and I am at peace with it, because I am renewed by him. It really does not matter what I think of your relationship with God because it's none of my business.

All I can tell you is about my relationship with God and that their is nothing I do in this relationship other than trust in his will for me not my will for myself. That's what I do and in that I grow daily for what he does and not what I do. I am nothing, he is everything.

I figure God has given you something quite special indeed, or should I say your faith and abilities are quite special. Not only has he given you a free will, but you have been able to use your free will to make the right decisions to follow him. . I think that's fantastic. I would never have done that with my free will, but I applaud you guys, I really do. Why God waste his time with me I'll never know, but I am so blessed he has chosen me for salvation. I can't explain it. All I recall is giving up, and the moment that I did him talking over.

You'd think he would do for everyone what he's done for me, but I guess he has different rules for those with the strong Will and determination to follow him in the first place and be righteous like him. I am impressed, and I know you guys live a Godly life in deed, with few mishaps that you can't at least be redeemed again and again through prayer. Speaking of prayers, here is a prayer you might like to say to God...you know, to thank him. It's just a suggestion but I thought you guys might like it. Check it out.

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

I really don't believe it's a good idea to make a mockery out of prayer. Even if it's done in a lighthearted way. Just an opinion, but you might consider that in the future...

 

[glorydaz]

:...I've no idea quite what you said. All I know from what you have said is that you do things your way by your own free will. So God can take you or leave you based on your choice.Your welcome to him, but if you don't, no big deal, but if you do all you have to do is walk the line and if you get out of line your out of the God club I guess and you'll need to use your free will to get back in. Hey that works for you cool.

I can't speak to that. All I know is that I've been captured by a God that I never wanted, and I am at peace with it, because I am renewed by him. It really does not matter what I think of your relationship with God because it's none of my business.

All I can tell you is about my relationship with God and that their is nothing I do in this relationship other than trust in his will for me not my will for myself. That's what I do and in that I grow daily for what he does and not what I do. I am nothing, he is everything.

I figure God has given you something quite special indeed, or should I say your faith and abilities are quite special. Not only has he given you a free will, but you have been able to use your free will to make the right decisions to follow him. . I think that's fantastic. I would never have done that with my free will, but I applaud you guys, I really do. Why God waste his time with me I'll never know, but I am so blessed he has chosen me for salvation. I can't explain it. All I recall is giving up, and the moment that I did him talking over.

You'd think he would do for everyone what he's done for me, but I guess he has different rules for those with the strong Will and determination to follow him in the first place and be righteous like him. I am impressed, and I know you guys live a Godly life in deed, with few mishaps that you can't at least be redeemed again and again through prayer. Speaking of prayers, here is a prayer you might like to say to God...you know, to thank him. It's just a suggestion but I thought you guys might like it. Check it out.

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

Danus, why is it you've decided to take this attitude? It's coming through loud and clear.

If you have no idea quite what I said, then why do you make up some distorted version of my statements? If you need clarity, I'd be more than happy to give it, but instead you've decided to answer like this. Hmmm...

The Bible speaks quite clearly of the Spirit convicting us of sin. That's usually what happens when people read the Word of God. It's power is enough to shine the light on our sins, and cause us to sorrow and turn to Him. This is why the Gospel has come into the world. To convict people of their sins. I can remember quite well the day I was saved, and it's really quite a common occurance among believers. Nothing special about me...once I was blind and now I see. Is that what you mean by the "God club?"

Perhaps you should allow the Lord to take over when you begin to answer someone's post, because, to be honest, I don't see Him in your answer above.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 

[Danus]

I really don't believe it's a good idea to make a mockery out of prayer. Even if it's done in a lighthearted way. Just an opinion, but you might consider that in the future...

I agree. God might not like it and who knows how much work one might have to do to get back in his good graces.

Danus, why is it you've decided to take this attitude? It's coming through loud and clear.

If you have no idea quite what I said, then why do you make up some distorted version of my statements? If you need clarity, I'd be more than happy to give it, but instead you've decided to answer like this. Hmmm...

The Bible speaks quite clearly of the Spirit convicting us of sin. That's usually what happens when people read the Word of God. It's power is enough to shine the light on our sins, and cause us to sorrow and turn to Him. This is why the Gospel has come into the world. To convict people of their sins. I can remember quite well the day I was saved, and it's really quite a common occurance among believers. Nothing special about me...once I was blind and now I see. Is that what you mean by the "God club?"

Perhaps you should allow the Lord to take over when you begin to answer someone's post, because, to be honest, I don't see Him in your answer above.

Why are you so upset? I simply pointed out my understanding of your theology. You have free will. You said you have free will and that you can use your free will to come to God. Did I miss something?

 

[glorydaz]

I agree. God might not like it and who knows how much work one might have to do to get back in his good graces.



Why are you so upset? I simply pointed out my understanding of your theology. You have free will. You said you have free will and that you can use your free will to come to God. Did I miss something?

I do have to chuckle over this. ;)

I'm not really upset that you responded in the flesh. We all do that at times, but it would have been nice if you'd have recognized that fact.

And, yes, I'd say you've missed pretty much everything we've been saying - even the scripture that's been posted.

I do have a hard time understanding, though, why some who say they are Calvinists seem to display such a lack of the fruit of the Spirit, and always end up getting so defensive. It seems when you thought you'd be able to convince me, you were quite reasonable. Then, out of the blue, you post what you did. This is one of things that should be in the "things hard to understand" thread, instead of the "faith or works necessary for Salvation" thread. In case you haven't noticed, both Grubal and I are quite out-spoken about works, and it's nowhere close to what you have implied. You might try coming right out and saying what you think instead of couching it behind this odd kind of sarcasm, which doesn't lead to any kind of "reasoning together."

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Adullam]

We are saved by faith in action!!!

By His power in us (grace) through faith and faithfulness.

 

[Danus]

I do have to chuckle over this. ;)

I'm not really upset that you responded in the flesh. We all do that at times, but it would have been nice if you'd have recognized that fact.

And, yes, I'd say you've missed pretty much everything we've been saying - even the scripture that's been posted.

I do have a hard time understanding, though, why some who say they are Calvinists seem to display such a lack of the fruit of the Spirit, and always end up getting so defensive. It seems when you thought you'd be able to convince me, you were quite reasonable. Then, out of the blue, you post what you did. This is one of things that should be in the "things hard to understand" thread, instead of the "faith or works necessary for Salvation" thread. In case you haven't noticed, both Grubal and I are quite out-spoken about works, and it's nowhere close to what you have implied. You might try coming right out and saying what you think instead of couching it behind this odd kind of sarcasm, which doesn't lead to any kind of "reasoning together."

I don't know what more I can give you, honestly. You guys have no problem explaining your understanding of reformed theology. I'm just explaining my understanding of Armenian theology.

At this point, this thread has gone the way of many in the A&T section. It has failed to be a discussion, or an honest exchange. It has deteriorated to nothing but words designed to support individual agenda's from the OP.

We have gone through scripture enough, and there is no need to support a position with more scripture, since none of that seems to have made an impact. No sense assuming it will any longer, but if you guys want to keep posting scripture to support your idea of man's Free Will and ability to turn to God on his own, I'll be glade to commit on it. I won't post anymore scripture to support the reformist theology. I'll tie my hands behind my back and just address your points on Free Willl and such. Deal?

I'm left with using layman terms to describe your theology. Here is your word for today. (meritorious ) mer·i·to·ri·ous :Adjective: Deserving reward or praise: "a medal for meritorious conduct". This is crux of Armenian theology. It says that man is deserving of salvation, and all he has to do is accept it by turning to Christ on his own with his Free Will. If not, damned to hell. After all, your either saved or your not.

Now then, once man turns to God, accept his salvation salvation God gives him a reward for being good, eternal life. Then he has to walk the God walk. By that I mean keep the straight and narrow. He has to be righteous to be righteous. This means 2 things as I see it.

1. If he get's out of righteousness by sinning, he must ask again for God's forgiveness, promise to behave and obey and then God will be merciful again and hand back his salvation.

2. Under this theology, man must put his trust in his own abilities to follow God and do the right thing, so to speak. God can only help him when he comes to God on his own free will. Other wise God will punish man to get him to comply, but not force him, just punish him for not being good enough.

So, if the Armenian has trouble in his life, he's probably being punished and should pray to God for forgiveness. What ever it is, it's most likely his own doing by his own free will since God's only will for him is to straighten up and fly right.

When this man dies, he will be judged on his merit alone. What Christ did is secondary, to what this Armenian was able to do of his own free will, power and such, and if his good deeds are heavier than his sins I guess he's let into heaven. this part I don't know. However, if his sin is heaver than his own righteousness, then a trap door opens and down the shoot to hell he goes.
However there is another group of Christians who have solved this little problem by inventing a place they call purgatory; which is a little limbo place between heaven and hell where one can work off their sins further then run on into heaven when they are good enough.

Now that is my honest understanding of what the Armenians believe about God, Man and the relationship between the two.
　
Again I can't speak to This. All I know is what the bible tells me and my own experience. And that is that I am a sinner. I have no hope on my own. My free will is worthless to save me. So all I can do is hand myself over to God.

When I have trouble in life I count it all JOY because I know that I have God. I go to God. I trust in God only. Not in me, or my ability to do the right thing, or make the right decision. God only. I know that God has a will for my life that I can not possibly fathom and so I leave it all in his hands. I rely only on Gods will, not my own. Does that mean I have no free will? NO, it just means that my will is limited and it's a joke compared to God, so I yield to the lord.

I gave this will of mine to the lord over 20 years ago, and he has been working with this old lump of clay ever since. I'm not quite sure what he's making, but it's better than anything I can do. Lastly I know that when I die, I will face judgment as well, but I've no worry, because when God ask me; "What did you do with my son?" I will say to him; "I trusted in him, not in myself." And I look forward to that day when I hear his words. "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

So see , that's all I can do. I am a servant to God and I can't be his servant and serve him with my will, I have to follow his plan to lead me out of Egypt because I'm to afraid to do it on my own. I need God.


Oopps I almost forgot. I wnat to answer this question you had

I do have a hard time understanding, though, why some who say they are Calvinists seem to display such a lack of the fruit of the Spirit, and always end up getting so defensive.

Answer: We are not righteouse like you guys are. We recognise we are flawed sinners, who lean on the righteousness of Christ. So, from time to time we make what we call "mistakes". This happens all the time when we try to follow our own free will. It's not as gloriouse as yours.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I agree. God might not like it and who knows how much work one might have to do to get back in his good graces.



Why are you so upset? I simply pointed out my understanding of your theology. You have free will. You said you have free will and that you can use your free will to come to God. Did I miss something?

You follow one "mockery" with another. Remember, God is not mocked!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I don't know what more I can give you, honestly. You guys have no problem explaining your understanding of reformed theology. I'm just explaining my understanding of Armenian theology.

At this point, this thread has gone the way of many in the A&T section. It has failed to be a discussion, or an honest exchange. It has deteriorated to nothing but words designed to support individual agenda's from the OP.

We have gone through scripture enough, and there is no need to support a position with more scripture, since none of that seems to have made an impact. No sense assuming it will any longer, but if you guys want to keep posting scripture to support your idea of man's Free Will and ability to turn to God on his own, I'll be glade to commit on it. I won't post anymore scripture to support the reformist theology. I'll tie my hands behind my back and just address your points on Free Willl and such. Deal?

I'm left with using layman terms to describe your theology. Here is your word for today. (meritorious ) mer·i·to·ri·ous :Adjective: Deserving reward or praise: "a medal for meritorious conduct". This is crux of Armenian theology. It says that man is deserving of salvation, and all he has to do is accept it by turning to Christ on his own with his Free Will. If not, damned to hell. After all, your either saved or your not.

Now then, once man turns to God, accept his salvation salvation God gives him a reward for being good, eternal life. Then he has to walk the God walk. By that I mean keep the straight and narrow. He has to be righteous to be righteous. This means 2 things as I see it.

1. If he get's out of righteousness by sinning, he must ask again for God's forgiveness, promise to behave and obey and then God will be merciful again and hand back his salvation.

2. Under this theology, man must put his trust in his own abilities to follow God and do the right thing, so to speak. God can only help him when he comes to God on his own free will. Other wise God will punish man to get him to comply, but not force him, just punish him for not being good enough.

So, if the Armenian has trouble in his life, he's probably being punished and should pray to God for forgiveness. What ever it is, it's most likely his own doing by his own free will since God's only will for him is to straighten up and fly right.

When this man dies, he will be judged on his merit alone. What Christ did is secondary, to what this Armenian was able to do of his own free will, power and such, and if his good deeds are heavier than his sins I guess he's let into heaven. this part I don't know. However, if his sin is heaver than his own righteousness, then a trap door opens and down the shoot to hell he goes.
However there is another group of Christians who have solved this little problem by inventing a place they call purgatory; which is a little limbo place between heaven and hell where one can work off their sins further then run on into heaven when they are good enough.

Now that is my honest understanding of what the Armenians believe about God, Man and the relationship between the two.
　
Again I can't speak to This. All I know is what the bible tells me and my own experience. And that is that I am a sinner. I have no hope on my own. My free will is worthless to save me. So all I can do is hand myself over to God.

When I have trouble in life I count it all JOY because I know that I have God. I go to God. I trust in God only. Not in me, or my ability to do the right thing, or make the right decision. God only. I know that God has a will for my life that I can not possibly fathom and so I leave it all in his hands. I rely only on Gods will, not my own. Does that mean I have no free will? NO, it just means that my will is limited and it's a joke compared to God, so I yield to the lord.

I gave this will of mine to the lord over 20 years ago, and he has been working with this old lump of clay ever since. I'm not quite sure what he's making, but it's better than anything I can do. Lastly I know that when I die, I will face judgment as well, but I've no worry, because when God ask me; "What did you do with my son?" I will say to him; "I trusted in him, not in myself." And I look forward to that day when I hear his words. "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

So see , that's all I can do. I am a servant to God and I can't be his servant and serve him with my will, I have to follow his plan to lead me out of Egypt because I'm to afraid to do it on my own. I need God.


Oopps I almost forgot. I wnat to answer this question you had


Answer: We are not righteouse like you guys are. We recognise we are flawed sinners, who lean on the righteousness of Christ. So, from time to time we make what we call "mistakes". This happens all the time when we try to follow our own free will. It's not as gloriouse as yours.

Danus-----Now then, once man turns to God, accept his salvation salvation God gives him a reward for being good, eternal life. Then he has to walk the God walk. By that I mean keep the straight and narrow. He has to be righteous to be righteous. This means 2 things as I see it.

Grubal----You have a great "misunderstanding" of what I personally believe. Although I've made it perfectly clear. Man must first hear the word of his salvation, then The Spirit convicts of sin that self same man, then that man must "choose" if he will put his faith in Christ. If he does, then the Spirit places such a man in the "body of Christ" and he is born- again Spiritually...It's not a matter of getting a reward for doing good, it's a matter of having our sins forgiven through Christ's atonement on the cross. In order to, walk the walk, the Spirit must be indwelt in the believer. We come before God a lost sinner without a Savior and by faith receive Christ and thereby, become a child of God... This has nothing to do with how "good" we are...

I do not adhere to Armenian nor Calvinism. They both leave much to be desired so far as I'm concerned...

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know what more I can give you, honestly. You guys have no problem explaining your understanding of reformed theology. I'm just explaining my understanding of Armenian theology.

At this point, this thread has gone the way of many in the A&T section. It has failed to be a discussion, or an honest exchange. It has deteriorated to nothing but words designed to support individual agenda's from the OP.

We have gone through scripture enough, and there is no need to support a position with more scripture, since none of that seems to have made an impact. No sense assuming it will any longer, but if you guys want to keep posting scripture to support your idea of man's Free Will and ability to turn to God on his own, I'll be glade to commit on it. I won't post anymore scripture to support the reformist theology. I'll tie my hands behind my back and just address your points on Free Willl and such. Deal?

I'm left with using layman terms to describe your theology. Here is your word for today. (meritorious ) mer·i·to·ri·ous :Adjective: Deserving reward or praise: "a medal for meritorious conduct". This is crux of Armenian theology. It says that man is deserving of salvation, and all he has to do is accept it by turning to Christ on his own with his Free Will. If not, damned to hell. After all, your either saved or your not.

Now then, once man turns to God, accept his salvation salvation God gives him a reward for being good, eternal life. Then he has to walk the God walk. By that I mean keep the straight and narrow. He has to be righteous to be righteous. This means 2 things as I see it.

1. If he get's out of righteousness by sinning, he must ask again for God's forgiveness, promise to behave and obey and then God will be merciful again and hand back his salvation.

2. Under this theology, man must put his trust in his own abilities to follow God and do the right thing, so to speak. God can only help him when he comes to God on his own free will. Other wise God will punish man to get him to comply, but not force him, just punish him for not being good enough.

So, if the Armenian has trouble in his life, he's probably being punished and should pray to God for forgiveness. What ever it is, it's most likely his own doing by his own free will since God's only will for him is to straighten up and fly right.

When this man dies, he will be judged on his merit alone. What Christ did is secondary, to what this Armenian was able to do of his own free will, power and such, and if his good deeds are heavier than his sins I guess he's let into heaven. this part I don't know. However, if his sin is heaver than his own righteousness, then a trap door opens and down the shoot to hell he goes.
However there is another group of Christians who have solved this little problem by inventing a place they call purgatory; which is a little limbo place between heaven and hell where one can work off their sins further then run on into heaven when they are good enough.

Now that is my honest understanding of what the Armenians believe about God, Man and the relationship between the two.
　
Again I can't speak to This. All I know is what the bible tells me and my own experience. And that is that I am a sinner. I have no hope on my own. My free will is worthless to save me. So all I can do is hand myself over to God.

When I have trouble in life I count it all JOY because I know that I have God. I go to God. I trust in God only. Not in me, or my ability to do the right thing, or make the right decision. God only. I know that God has a will for my life that I can not possibly fathom and so I leave it all in his hands. I rely only on Gods will, not my own. Does that mean I have no free will? NO, it just means that my will is limited and it's a joke compared to God, so I yield to the lord.

I gave this will of mine to the lord over 20 years ago, and he has been working with this old lump of clay ever since. I'm not quite sure what he's making, but it's better than anything I can do. Lastly I know that when I die, I will face judgment as well, but I've no worry, because when God ask me; "What did you do with my son?" I will say to him; "I trusted in him, not in myself." And I look forward to that day when I hear his words. "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

So see , that's all I can do. I am a servant to God and I can't be his servant and serve him with my will, I have to follow his plan to lead me out of Egypt because I'm to afraid to do it on my own. I need God.


Oopps I almost forgot. I wnat to answer this question you had


Answer: We are not righteouse like you guys are. We recognise we are flawed sinners, who lean on the righteousness of Christ. So, from time to time we make what we call "mistakes". This happens all the time when we try to follow our own free will. It's not as gloriouse as yours.

I will only say this. You don't know me, nor do you have the slightest inkling what I believe. You've taken every negative point you can think of about a particular theology and liberally ascribed them to me. You couldn't be more off the track if you tried. Not only that, but you do it in a most unbecoming snide fashion.

 

[Danus]

I will only say this. You don't know me, nor do you have the slightest inkling what I believe. You've taken every negative point you can think of about a particular theology and liberally ascribed them to me. You couldn't be more off the track if you tried. Not only that, but you do it in a most unbecoming snide fashion.

Well, my responce is to GM also. You guys have spent quite a bit of time telling me what you believe, so I'm sure I have a pretty good idea. You said you belive in free will, and mans abaility to use his free will to save himself by comming to God. What did I get wrong?

One thing for sure, your not here to learn about the reformist view. That part I do know, nor do you care to learn about it. GM posted thread after thread knocking John Calvin and clearly not understanding or making any attempt to do so, and you back him up. ;)

I think it's fastinating that we have people who can subvert one of the greatest theologions ever because they know more, than some of the most briliant minds to ever write, preach or stand for God's word. Men like Calvin, Edwards, Luther and even Paul...I guess they lived lives in vain for the work they did.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, my responce is to GM also. You guys have spent quite a bit of time telling me what you believe, so I'm sure I have a pretty good idea. You said you belive in free will, and mans abaility to use his free will to save himself by comming to God. What did I get wrong?

One thing for sure, your not here to learn about the reformist view. That part I do know, nor do you care to learn about it. GM posted thread after thread knocking John Calvin and clearly not understanding or making any attempt to do so, and you back him up. ;)

I think it's fastinating that we have people who can subvert one of the greatest theologions ever because they know more, than some of the most briliant minds to ever write, preach or stand for God's word. Men like Calvin, Edwards, Luther and even Paul...I guess they lived lives in vain for the work they did.

Danus-----Well, my responce is to GM also. You guys have spent quite a bit of time telling me what you believe, so I'm sure I have a pretty good idea. You said you belive in free will, and mans abaility to use his free will to save himself by comming to God. What did I get wrong?

Grubal-----Man does "not" save himself by coming to God...Man is drawn by the Gospel preached, the conviction of the Spirit, placing his (mans) faith in Christ and Him crucified and the rest is the work of the Holy Spirit...Man "only" has to believe. (period)

Danus-----One thing for sure, your not here to learn about the reformist view. That part I do know, nor do you care to learn about it. GM posted thread after thread knocking John Calvin and clearly not understanding or making any attempt to do so, and you back him up. ;)

Grubal----- evidently you didn't read everything I wrote, Many years ago I was into Calvinism, but have since (over the years) seen the light, so to say...Calvinism is not of the truth...I know the history of John Calvin.

Danus-----I think it's fastinating that we have people who can subvert one of the greatest theologions ever because they know more, than some of the most briliant minds to ever write, preach or stand for God's word. Men like Calvin, Edwards, Luther and even Paul...I guess they lived lives in vain for the work they did.

Grubal-----I wouldn't put Paul's name in there with the rest my friend...There's no comparison whatsoever...