IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[electedbyhim]

We're discussing how non-cals believe the reformed are robots.
You don't think so.

How could any decision come from you if you agree that God decrees and predestinates every actions of man?

How could anything be for the glory of God, when it's GOD that decreed that you should do the good action?
How could God be happy with you IF HE predestinated you to do the good action?

God decreeing everything that happens is what makes a person a robot !

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

... because God ask told us to participate ... He is the potter and we are the clay; not the other way around.
Why do you impose your will upon the Almighty?
Why is your way superior to that chosen by the Almighty?
Why don't you give relevant verses to back up your claim?

The definition of work is something one does for a purpose. Thus, if salvific faith is self-determined (Free Willianism) then your faith is a work. This contradicts scripture that says we are not saved by our works; rather, it says "this is the work of God [not man] that you believe" John 6:29. Gal. 5:2-6 warns that those who believe in salvation by works will be "cut off".

As Free Willians say, "good luck"
As God says, "fortunate predestination"

Anbraham bargained with God when he received the news of Sodom and Gomorrah's impending doom; he asked God to spare their lives for the sake of as few as ten righteous persons. Moses also pleaded for God's mercy when Israelites worshipped the golden calf and God threatedn to blot them all out and start over with Moses (Ex. 32:9-10); Jacob went further, he didn't just pray or plead, he literally fought with God all night until he received a blessing, that earned him the name Israel - struggle with God - and a broken hip. In your logic, these patriarchs were resisting the sovereign will of God, they were imposing their "free will" upon the Almighty, and yet the Almighty not only listened to them but rewarded them, why is that?

 

[Fastfredy0]

So many errors in that post.

Well, there's an in depth analysis .... lol

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What is pessimistic? Explain.

The attitude of throwing in the towel and submitting to what you think is "God's sovereign will".

 

[Fastfredy0]

How could any decision come from you if you agree that God decrees and predestinates every actions of man?

???? Everyone makes decisions. I don't think you thought out your question. Everyone agrees that everyone makes decisions.

How could anything be for the glory of God, when it's GOD that decreed that you should do the good action?

I don't think you thought out your question again.
If God is the cause of us doing good then God gets the glory. If an individual is the sole cause of doing something good then the individual gets the glory.

1. 1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those elect

How could God be happy with you IF HE predestinated you to do the good action?

Getting God's perfect way all the time brings him pleasure.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure and purpose,

God decreeing everything that happens is what makes a person a robot !

You got a verse for that? LOL

Let's looks at it from your doctrine ...
Men working independently of God makes God their robot. If you have faith in Christ which you self determine then God must roboticly adopt you as His daughter.
Job 35: 7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign].

You should consider changing your handle from GodsGrace to GodOwesMe for, according to your theology, He owes you for your self-determined faith and must roboticly be caused to adopt you. You are in this instance sovereign over the All Mighty ... well, technically God is not All Mighty using your doctrine as you have the power over God to cause Him to save you. Congrats.

 

[Fastfredy0]

How do YOU take control of any situation when it's God that is determining your every move?

I don't.

It's you that controls some things and thus you have control over God as your doctrine portends that you can act independent of Him even to the point that God must adopt you because you self-determined to believe.
Aside: there's a reason scripture uses the word "adopt"; because it is the parent (God) that chooses to adopt a child or not.... under your theology the dead child (dead in sin Col 2:13) adopts the parent (God).... a definite twisting of God's word.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Am not going through this again.
We will agree to disagree on definitions.

How can you be a soldier for Free Will and not be able to define it. Just google it rather than making up your own unique, obtuse definition.
Example: the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe.

 

[Fastfredy0]

There’s also evidence that He did pick a fixed number - 144,000 Israelites, 12,000 from each tribe.

LOL ... well, if God picked every individual and if God can do math .... then obviously He knows the number.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

LOL ... well, if God picked every individual and if God can do math .... then obviously He knows the number.

So God picked the individuals first and then did the math by adding them up - which coincidentally reached these numbers? Doesn't that defeat your own argument of predestination? How about God "predestined" this specific quota of 144,000, with 12,000 from each tribe, then these spots are being filled up with worthy and qualified individuals? You know, sometimes it's not just about a bunch of random facts, the right, logical order of these facts, the way you phrase and present them matter more than the merit of these facts.

 

[Fastfredy0]

In Is. 38, king Hezekiah was on his deathbed near his end, he was ordered by God to give his will (Is. 38:1); yet he didn’t take it, he prayed fervently, and God extended his life by fifteen years (Is. 38:5) - “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears. Surely I will add to your days fifteen years.” So how did Hezekiah get to change his “predestination” with his own “work”?

If God changed His mind then He is not immutable. If God can change then His word can change.
God says: Hebrews 6:17 Accordingly God also, in His desire to show more convincingly and beyond doubt to those who were to inherit the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose and plan, intervened (mediated) with an oath.

God is all knowing. He knew what Hezekiah would do and how He would respond.

When you come up with these ideas always ask yourself ... does my idea contradict the attributes of God. Immutable, all knowing, omnipresent, all powerful, etc. etc.

 

[Fastfredy0]

they were imposing their "free will" upon the Almighty

think upon what you're saying.... you're saying God is Almighty and then saying we can impose our will upon Him. Apparently you don't believe God is Almighty as you believe we have independent power.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

God is all knowing. He knew what Hezekiah would do and how He would respond.

That's easy or you to say with 20-20 vision in retrospect, what would you do if you were in Hezekiah's situation? How would you know whether it was a test or not? Had Hezekiah succumbed to the word of God in Is. 38:1 and peacefully accepted his fate, had he not resisted it with his "own idea" that contradicted that order, would God still add 15 years to his life? These are not my ideas, sir, these are legitimate biblical examples that contradict your doctrine.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

think upon what you're saying.... you're saying God is Almighty and then saying we can impose our will upon Him. Apparently you don't believe God is Almighty as you believe we have independent power.

You didn't answer me why those patriarchs got to impose their wills upon God, and why God listened to them. For the record, I never assume anything or impose my will on anybody.

 

[electedbyhim]

The attitude of throwing in the towel and submitting to what you think is "God's sovereign will".

What does that even mean?

I do not understand.

 

[electedbyhim]

???? Everyone makes decisions. I don't think you thought out your question. Everyone agrees that everyone makes decisions.



I don't think you thought out your question again.
If God is the cause of us doing good then God gets the glory. If an individual is the sole cause of doing something good then the individual gets the glory.

1. 1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those elect

Getting God's perfect way all the time brings him pleasure.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure and purpose,



You got a verse for that? LOL

Let's looks at it from your doctrine ...
Men working independently of God makes God their robot. If you have faith in Christ which you self determine then God must roboticly adopt you as His daughter.
Job 35: 7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign].

You should consider changing your handle from GodsGrace to GodOwesMe for, according to your theology, He owes you for your self-determined faith and must roboticly be caused to adopt you. You are in this instance sovereign over the All Mighty ... well, technically God is not All Mighty using your doctrine as you have the power over God to cause Him to save you. Congrats.

This is spot on.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What does that even mean?

I do not understand.

Means surrender.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please take note next time and show where I do this.
Because you say I do this, does not make it so.
It's a misunderstanding, I'm sure.

post 105 is an example. You clearly do not understand what I posted ,yet you say all Christians agree, but you do not agree at all. You say you read what I posted. maybe you did, but it is clear you do not understand the post, by how you respond.

 

[Iconoclast]

You're doing what you accuse me of !

No, this just shows you do not understand.

1. You say you make choices.

Yes, everyday

Could you please EXPLAIN HOW you make the choices you make if you believe God ordains, decrees, predestinates everything.

It has been explained to you over and over but you are so busy resisting you cannot see it.
Men are fully responsible for everything they do and say. God does not make choices for you. God does not force you to say things, you do it.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Nevertheless God ordains all that comes to pass.

2. Reformed persons really never explain how they make a choice.

I just did. Non reformed people such as yourself, never get it.

3. NOT AT ALL is referring to Romans 6:16 which states that we are slaves to the one to whom WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
Please explain how this is NOT free will.

It is not, it is a statement of who we are In Christ and to act accordingly.

Your saying so does not make it so.

correct, the bible teaches it despite those who do not see it.

If you present YOURSELF to something...
you are using your free will.

No, that is not an option, it is fact.

Unless you're reformed....then it's God MAKING YOU WANT to present yourself.

If you read and understand it teaches you and everyone else this truth

 

[Iconoclast]

Free will is a concept in philosophy and science that refers to the ability of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe12. Free will is often associated with moral, philosophical and psychological responsibility for one's actions23. Free will implies that people can do different things and have different outcomes in their lives34. Some use the term “free will” loosely to reflect the role of conscious decisions in shaping one's life.

from my computer

 

[Hopeful 2]

Free will is a concept in philosophy and science that refers to the ability of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe12. Free will is often associated with moral, philosophical and psychological responsibility for one's actions23. Free will implies that people can do different things and have different outcomes in their lives34. Some use the term “free will” loosely to reflect the role of conscious decisions in shaping one's life.

from my computer

I wish I had used my free will to go to school instead of choosing to get drunk and stoned all the time.