Is god real??????

[freediver]

In my search for the truth I have visited some atheist forums lately and I must confess that their arguments seem rational and logical. People here will condemn me for this but it is my right to persue what I think is needed to satisfy my needed logic in a otherwise illogical faith. If it is a christian crime to seek rational thought then I am guilty, why should I follow another man just because he says he knows more than me. I am an individual with my own thought, I am not a sheep from a flock, I have human intelligence and need to know what is correct, not what another man thinks is correct. Is my questioning so unreasonable.

 

[handy]

Nope!

'Smatter of fact a very famous Christian once said, "Seek and ye shall find, ask and it will be answered, knock and the door will be opened."

Seeking, asking, knocking, action words all. Seems as though Chrisitanity should be a religion of those who are actively searching for truth.

 

[Arcanebiomech]

In my search for the truth I have visited some atheist forums lately and I must confess that their arguments seem rational and logical. People here will condemn me for this but it is my right to persue what I think is needed to satisfy my needed logic in a otherwise illogical faith. If it is a christian crime to seek rational thought then I am guilty, why should I follow another man just because he says he knows more than me. I am an individual with my own thought, I am not a sheep from a flock, I have human intelligence and need to know what is correct, not what another man thinks is correct. Is my questioning so unreasonable.

I used to be a Laveyan Satanist. I have seen too much proof now to keep deluding myself that there is no God, but I still hold a very firm belief in individuality and creativity. You should always follow your own path and make your own mind up. As for following the flock, I hate followers, the majority of christians I talk to these days are rediculous. I will ask them for their opinion on something and they will go away ask the pastor and then come back and tell me. I wanted their opinion not the opinion of their minister regarding their beliefs. This is why I no longer attend churches. I see too much that makes me angry there. People being hypocritical and judgemental, people who can't think for themselves. Christianity is becoming a fashion for some these days.

All I can say is that I have witnessed things and done enough research now to believe in god and believe he offers second chances. So my answer is yes. But don't just believe it because I said, go and explore it for yourself, talk to him and listen for answers. But in the end never follow the herd, form your own opinions and don't be afraid to listen to what others have to say. Why should people from other religions listen to us if we shut our ears to them. As for atheists they are just a different flock but a flock nonetheless. They (like I was) most probably hate the idea of obeying someone else and handing your life over. But ruling your own life, and living without any meaning is a lot more painful than handing it over to God.

 

[freediver]

As for following the flock, I hate followers, the majority of christians I talk to these days are rediculous. I will ask them for their opinion on something and they will go away ask the pastor and then come back and tell me. I wanted their opinion not the opinion of their minister regarding their beliefs. This is why I no longer attend churches. I see too much that makes me angry there. People being hypocritical and judgemental, people who can't think for themselves. Christianity is becoming a fashion for some these days.

This is exactly how I feel, when I question anything in the bible the zealots will quickly try to call me names and persecute me without any thought to their actions. It is as though they think they will earn brownie points for being the most reactionary. They have created a situation where people cannot talk freely. This is not beneficial to anyone, it is causing disharmony and division.

 

[stovebolts]

We're all following somebody, wether we realize it or not...

As far as finding the "right" church, good luck as you'll find an assortment of people in each congregation and there isn't a church around that doesn't have issues.

That being said, there are a lot of great churches around and I'm pretty comfortable where God has put me. Here's the thing though, every church has it's little group of outspoken members, but each church also has it's meek, and wise members and you can tell when a congregtion is in harmony when both are working together to glorify God. Where division occurs, is when a party tips too far to the right, or two far to the left.

But as for the nature of this subject, it's good to wrestle with God. Jacob did and came out of it with a hip out of socket, which really isn't a bad thing... Christianity comes with a lot of tough questions, but it's rewards are timeless as truly, the truth will set you free.

God bless. I pray that you will find a good church family and that your time on this forum will help you find some of the answers to some of your questions. It may not be immediate and sometimes you may have to seek for years without any resolution, but if your persistant, it'll all come together on God's time.

Take care,
Jeff

 

[handy]

As for following the flock, I hate followers, the majority of christians I talk to these days are rediculous. I will ask them for their opinion on something and they will go away ask the pastor and then come back and tell me. I wanted their opinion not the opinion of their minister regarding their beliefs. This is why I no longer attend churches. I see too much that makes me angry there. People being hypocritical and judgemental, people who can't think for themselves. Christianity is becoming a fashion for some these days.

This is exactly how I feel, when I question anything in the bible the zealots will quickly try to call me names and persecute me without any thought to their actions. It is as though they think they will earn brownie points for being the most reactionary. They have created a situation where people cannot talk freely. This is not beneficial to anyone, it is causing disharmony and division.

Wow, I'm sorry that the two of you have such a horrible experience of Christianity. It seems so strange to me, as I've been in and around churches all of my adult life and have found that most folks are quite willing to share the hope that is within them. Frankly, I've found that 'zealots' tend to be the rare exception in church rather than the rule. (Though admittedly they are around.)

May I ask what churches you two have gone to where fundamental questions regarding faith are treated so disrespectfully?

Myself, I've always been a questioner, and have pestered pastors, Sunday School teachers, Bible study leaders and just plain congregants with many questions, and have very rarely been treated disrespectfully. Pretty much everyone, with one or two very rare exceptions over the last 30 years, have been willing to give answers and encouraged me to continue seeking and searching.

 

[freediver]

I have found that when I ask questions of any intellect, the response is never sincere, I am quoted a verse from the bible and told to pray, it is a standard response, it appears rehearsed and I feel I am treated as product not an individual. There is no encouragement to think for myself, the feeling is read this and shutup, don't doubt, don't use logic and do as I tell you. Who is another man to tell me what to do, we are all supposed to be equal yet some of these church officials think they are gods voice, their arrogance annoys me.

 

[Drew]

I have found that when I ask questions of any intellect, the response is never sincere, I am quoted a verse from the bible and told to pray, it is a standard response, it appears rehearsed and I feel I am treated as product not an individual. There is no encouragement to think for myself, the feeling is read this and shutup, don't doubt, don't use logic and do as I tell you. Who is another man to tell me what to do, we are all supposed to be equal yet some of these church officials think they are gods voice, their arrogance annoys me.

My experience in the church over the years has some elements of similarity to what you describe.

I know I may lately appear to be "zealous" in my admiration for the work of NT Wright. Nevertheless, if you want an intellectually sophisticated apologist for the Christain faith, I think Wright is a great place to start. I suggest that while some in the church do not like what he says, no one will contest his academic qualifications and reputation.

He has a website with lots of articles: http://www.ntwrightpage.com

 

[handy]

I have found that when I ask questions of any intellect, the response is never sincere, I am quoted a verse from the bible and told to pray, it is a standard response, it appears rehearsed and I feel I am treated as product not an individual. There is no encouragement to think for myself, the feeling is read this and shutup, don't doubt, don't use logic and do as I tell you. Who is another man to tell me what to do, we are all supposed to be equal yet some of these church officials think they are gods voice, their arrogance annoys me.

Forgive me, but I am finding hard to believe that this is always the case, that in all the time that you have asked questions of any intellect the response is never sincere. That you have never been treated as an individual or that you have never been encouraged to think.

Now, I find it easy to believe that you have come across some who have treated you this way, but it seems a little ...shall I say insincere, on your part to say that you are always given the bum's rush by all the Christians you've questioned.

There may be several things at play here. Perhaps you are only referring to a few guys who blew you off and are not considering how many times folks have earnestly tried to answer you. Or, perhaps you have come off as arrogant yourself in your questions, and folks have been given the impression that you are not sincere in your questions but are only provoking arguements. Frankly, if I get a strong impression that someone is just trying to diss my faith, I don't answer them either. I'm not saying that you are deliberately doing this, but perhaps you have given folks this impression. After all, you started your thread here by calling, inadvertantly or otherwise, the Christian faith illogical. That right there seemed a little arrogant and provoking to me, (although if you want to start a thread on the rationals of Christianity, I'll be happy to join in discussion with you.)

At any rate, I'm sure that if you have sincere questions to be answered, you've found the right place to have them answered. Folks around here don't always disagree, (how boring that would be) but this is a good place to ask a variety of folks questions and make up your own mind.

One more thing, being quoted scripture and told to pray isn't necessarily a blow off either. As a matter of fact, prayer examination of Scripture is a pretty good way to find out about God.

Really freediver, it comes down to how sincere you are in your search. If you are coming as someone who just wants to provoke arguements, it's pretty understandable why you are getting the responses you say you are. If you are truly seeking after God and His truth for your life, you will find the answers you seek, and prayerfully searching the Scriptures is a great way to start. I can say this because this is exactly how I came to know God, by prayerfully examining the Gospel of John.

Hope to see more threads from you discussing some of your questions regarding faith and God.
Dora

 

[believer_in_one]

Regardless of the questions that athiests ask they never are satisfied with truth. The most illogical thought ever is that something came from nothing. Athiests have to succomb to design, to my knowledge there cannot be a true athiest. I think there all agnostics who chose to be ignorrant to the facts in which the bible provide, especially since Moses wrote the Torah. To me being a believer in everything that Jesus accomplished and is still doing is enough for me to have faith. Agnostics are people who are either ignorant or arrogant. All who are saved from our depravity know how little we actually percieve and understand on our own. If you can't believe Gen 1:1, then how can you believe anything else beyond that? Too many human beings tend to believe that everything they taught by other men without hesitation. The reality is that there is a God who made the universe and You and Me. By that alone we should be in awe of. Even more awesome is that he imputed his own knowledge into our lives by the way of Jesus. Just read the Gospel of John and you'll recieve insight who our God is.

Jesus Bless,

 

[freediver]

Forgive me, but I am finding hard to believe that this is always the case, that in all the time that you have asked questions of any intellect the response is never sincere. That you have never been treated as an individual or that you have never been encouraged to think.
Now, I find it easy to believe that you have come across some who have treated you this way, but it seems a little ...shall I say insincere, on your part to say that you are always given the bum's rush by all the Christians you've questioned.
There may be several things at play here. Perhaps you are only referring to a few guys who blew you off and are not considering how many times folks have earnestly tried to answer you. Or, perhaps you have come off as arrogant yourself in your questions, and folks have been given the impression that you are not sincere in your questions but are only provoking arguements. Frankly, if I get a strong impression that someone is just trying to diss my faith, I don't answer them either. I'm not saying that you are deliberately doing this, but perhaps you have given folks this impression. After all, you started your thread here by calling, inadvertantly or otherwise, the Christian faith illogical. That right there seemed a little arrogant and provoking to me, (although if you want to start a thread on the rationals of Christianity, I'll be happy to join in discussion with you.)
At any rate, I'm sure that if you have sincere questions to be answered, you've found the right place to have them answered. Folks around here don't always disagree, (how boring that would be) but this is a good place to ask a variety of folks questions and make up your own mind.
One more thing, being quoted scripture and told to pray isn't necessarily a blow off either. As a matter of fact, prayer examination of Scripture is a pretty good way to find out about God.
Really freediver, it comes down to how sincere you are in your search. If you are coming as someone who just wants to provoke arguements, it's pretty understandable why you are getting the responses you say you are. If you are truly seeking after God and His truth for your life, you will find the answers you seek, and prayerfully searching the Scriptures is a great way to start. I can say this because this is exactly how I came to know God, by prayerfully examining the Gospel of John.
Hope to see more threads from you discussing some of your questions regarding faith and God.
Dora

OK, you have already started the response that is typical, you doubt my sincerity and accuse me of provoking arguments and to search the scriptures. Why can I not express myself, my doubts without being personally ridiculed or told to read the bible.
I am at a point in my life that I need more than a written text for proof of gods existence, this is the point where others have told me either they don't have answers or that faith will be my salvation.

 

[SnapCount]

Isn't it funny?

Athiests don't believe in a God, therefore, according to them, we are only dust specks in a vast universe, existing for only a moment, here today and gone tomorrow; a wave tossed in the ocean, a vapor in the wind.

But, despite that, they're still very outspoken. Not all of them, but certainly many of them. Despite what our religion is, we still want to belong, we want to be heard, we want to make a difference, we want to be loved, we want to feel needed and we want to be important, and we want our existence to have a meaning.

 

[handy]

OK, you have already started the response that is typical, you doubt my sincerity and accuse me of provoking arguments and to search the scriptures. Why can I not express myself, my doubts without being personally ridiculed or told to read the bible.
I am at a point in my life that I need more than a written text for proof of gods existence, this is the point where others have told me either they don't have answers or that faith will be my salvation.

I don't necessarily doubt your sincerity. 'Smatter of fact, I'd love to enter into a dialog with you regarding your doubts about God. I'll be in a much better position to determine your sincerity regarding your doubts about God, when you get around to expressing what those doubts are. So far, you haven't been specific regarding what doubts you have. So far, you haven't asked any questions. So far, all you've done is express thoughts that ALL Christians have blown you off. Kvetching about Christians isn't the same as expressing heartfelt doubts regarding God's existance.

By all means, freedriver, ask what's on your heart regarding your doubts about God. Then, we can enter into a dialog regarding the rationals for the Christian faith. I can understand needing some extra-Biblical reasons for belief in God, and I happen to believe that there are many. I'll be happy to share the hope that is within me, when you get around to asking me (or anyone else) to do so. So far, you haven't. Which is why you SEEM, (seem mind you) a tad insincere.

 

[handy]

Freedriver, I wanted to put a little context into my responses to you so far.

Your first post didn't address any specific doubts regarding God per se, but was more of an appeal to anyone right to express doubts and questions regarding faith. I was the very first person to respond to your first post, and I responded in a very positive, encouraging way.

You totally ignored my response to you, and just went right into complaining that the "zealots" call you names and persecute you and try to earn brownie points for being reactionary.

Then, both Jeff and I responded to you that it's too bad that you've had some negative experiences and that all churches have a certain amount of issues, but to persist and encouraged you to continue to ask and seek out answers.

Jeff said,

But as for the nature of this subject, it's good to wrestle with God. Jacob did and came out of it with a hip out of socket, which really isn't a bad thing... Christianity comes with a lot of tough questions, but it's rewards are timeless as truly, the truth will set you free.

God bless. I pray that you will find a good church family and that your time on this forum will help you find some of the answers to some of your questions. It may not be immediate and sometimes you may have to seek for years without any resolution, but if your persistant, it'll all come together on God's time.

I said,

Myself, I've always been a questioner, and have pestered pastors, Sunday School teachers, Bible study leaders and just plain congregants with many questions, and have very rarely been treated disrespectfully. Pretty much everyone, with one or two very rare exceptions over the last 30 years, have been willing to give answers and encouraged me to continue seeking and searching.

And, after this encouragement you respond with:

I have found that when I ask questions of any intellect, the response is never sincere, I am quoted a verse from the bible and told to pray, it is a standard response, it appears rehearsed and I feel I am treated as product not an individual. There is no encouragement to think for myself, the feeling is read this and shutup, don't doubt, don't use logic and do as I tell you.

See, Freedriver, at sites like these, there are always some who come around with the purpose of simply bashing Christianity, Christains and faith in general. They don't have sincere questions, their mind is already closed tighter than a trap. All they want to do is to argue and diss Christianity.

As I've said several times now, I don't have much time to simply argue with anyone. Argueing never brought anyone to faith anyway.

But, reasoned discussion regarding why I believe in God, sure I love to talk about that. And, if you have any questions, fire away, I'll try the best I can to give a reasoned answer.

But, for now, I gotta go. I'm missing the Boise State/Hawaii game! I'll check back later and see which way you want to go here. If all you really want to do is complain about Christians, I'll probably drop off the thread, but if you have some real questions, then I'll do my best to come up with a sincere answer.

Dora

 

[gadget]

freediver,

Making such a vague statement puts you in a position where the devil can do his dirty deeds. You must be one of those new christians seeing the grass greener on the other side...

Jesus, once approached by the richman saw his lust for possessions, then asked him to leave his belongings and follow him. There would have been a thirteenth diciple, only, jesus was already questioning his judgement as to whether or not he could see his point of view!

Sorry, freediver, I am not a christian-yet I believe in jesus' philosophies as being legitimate-

I still am searching for meanings, truths, and logical paths, however, you are the type of person I would have as a friend.

=]

 

[freediver]

Your first post didn't address any specific doubts regarding God per se, but was more of an appeal to anyone right to express doubts and questions regarding faith. I was the very first person to respond to your first post, and I responded in a very positive, encouraging way.

You totally ignored my response to you, and just went right into complaining that the "zealots" call you names and persecute you and try to earn brownie points for being reactionary.

I thought the title to my thread was very clear, Is god real????

I do appreciate all the responses from everyone and please don't take offence that I haven't responded to each individual remark.

Nope!

I actually didn't know if you were answering my question or disagreeing with me.

I haven't meant to be vague, my question was in the heading, I have said I need more than quotes from the bible to satisfy my doubts. I keep being told I need more faith, but faith in something that no one has given any proof of is becoming more illogical each day.

 

[handy]

Well, I apologize for missing your question. I must admit to being more impacted by the body of your post and rather lost sight of the title of the thread to begin with.

Let's get to it then. 8-)

First of all, the question is a valid one. However, since I don't know you well, would you mind answering a couple of questions about how you learn and how to come to accept things? I ask this because different people come to accept what is truth in different ways.

For example, do you accept the historical accuracy of Jesus Christ? Not the Divinity just whether or not Jesus lived as a person, and if so, why do you accept it? For that matter, do you accept the historical accuracy of George Washington, Julius Ceasar, or Henry VIII and if so why?

Are you more interested in a scientific approach to learning? For instance, do you struggle with whether or not there is a God because of evolution or other scientific theories? And, why do you accept the scientific theories you do accept?

Or are you more of the Missourian "Show Me" type who needs to have first-hand knowledge of everything before accepting it. I worked with a guy once who rejected the idea that the Black Plague wiped out so many people in the Middle Ages. He also rejected the idea that Neil Armstrong really did walk on the moon. He really wouldn't believe in anything that he himself didn't have first hand knowledge about.

Now, I believe firmly that there is a preponderance of evidence, both historical and scientific that points to a rational belief in God. I'll admit, if you are the type that wont accept any reality beyond which you yourself experience, I don't know if I can be of help.

 

[Veritas]

In my search for the truth I have visited some atheist forums lately and I must confess that their arguments seem rational and logical. People here will condemn me for this but it is my right to persue what I think is needed to satisfy my needed logic in a otherwise illogical faith. If it is a christian crime to seek rational thought then I am guilty, why should I follow another man just because he says he knows more than me. I am an individual with my own thought, I am not a sheep from a flock, I have human intelligence and need to know what is correct, not what another man thinks is correct. Is my questioning so unreasonable.

Why do you believe logic exists?

.....(just so you know I do believe it exists)

 

[freediver]

Handy, knowing me is irrelevant as is the way of my faith. My experience has been that If I am thought to be a atheist my opinion is discounted, If I am thought to be an christian I am told I need greater faith. I will give you this as my previous posts have eluded to, that my faith is at a point where I am seeking more than faith based evidence.
I am seeing scientists who are atheists and others who are religious, if I wanted to let my faith take over and accept everything the religious scientists said I would feel that I am being sold their spin. I feel these people are treating me like an idiot and that I should accept what they say or go to hell.
My understanding and knowledge of science is very limited, but I do Know that a true scientist will approach a theory to gain knowledge and not have an outcome then try to prove that correct.
The question is a simple desire for evidence other than a book that man has written, deciphered, adapted, and rewritten many times.

 

[handy]

For what it's worth and though I admittedly had some question at first, I don't think you're either an athiest or a Christian. It seems to me that you are a seeker, with some genuine questions, and some bad experiences with Christians.

The question is a simple desire for evidence other than a book that man has written, deciphered, adapted, and rewritten many times.

OK then, what are the extra-Biblical evidences to the reality of God?

When I mentioned science, I didn't place science in opposition to religion, because I don't believe that it is. All scientists are folks like you and me. All will bring their own bias, philosophies and religions, (even if the religion is a non-religion such as atheism) to thier theories. This is why there are both religious and non-religious scientists and religious and non-religious scientific theories. I believe that examining scientific truths to be a great way to start a search for god, because they can form a foundation upon which one can apply logical principles.

A logical place to start would be the existance of order in our universe. There is order in the cosmos, there is order in the way life has shown to be evolved here, there is order in even the cells and their functions. Frankly, I cannot think of anything, when brought down to it's most fundamental level, that doesn't show consistancy and order.

It may be up to religion and philosophy to define what causes and effects order has upon the universe, but that order exists has been more than proven by science.

As of now, because there has been no scientifically proven theory, it is a religious and/or philosophical question to ask where the order that is in our universe came from. That chaos can come out of order seems logical enough, because we can witness the break down of order into chaos. I've yet to see anything that shows with any consistancy whatsoever, the rising of order out of chaos. When one asks the question "Where did order in the Universe come from?" one is asking a religious question.

This is the beef with the Intelligent Design crowd, that they are accused of unscientifically saying that with design, there must be a designer. What is also true, but not acknowledged is that it is just as much a religious leap for a scientist to say that there can be design with no designer. The ID scientists are not trying to define who the designer is at this point, just to get an acknowledgment that the overwhelming body of scientific evidence points to a universal designer. For whatever reason, the non-religious scientists want us to reject the very idea of a designer, even though they put forth no viable theory as to how order came to be without one.

Now, freedriver, this is an example of at least one extra-biblcal evidence to a rational belief in God. I'm not asking to you accept it, just to see the examination of an ordered Universe can lead one to a rational acceptance that there is indeed a designer. And, by all means, to study the order of this universe for yourself, from the cosmos down to DNA, and ask yourself how it all came to be without a designer.

I know that you reject the Bible, but if you're interested I can point out some rather interesting things within the ancient Scriptures that we know are at the very least 1500 to 2000 years old, that have a curious compatability with modern scientific theories and delve into why that would be.

Or, there are also historical evidences, as well as philosophical evidences and personal testimonies that all point to a rational belief in God without going into examining the Scriptures. If you're interested, I'll be happy to discuss some of the ones that made an impact on me in my own search regarding God.