Is god real??????

[Dunamite]

In my search for the truth I have visited some atheist forums lately and I must confess that their arguments seem rational and logical. People here will condemn me for this but it is my right to persue what I think is needed to satisfy my needed logic in a otherwise illogical faith. If it is a christian crime to seek rational thought then I am guilty, why should I follow another man just because he says he knows more than me. I am an individual with my own thought, I am not a sheep from a flock, I have human intelligence and need to know what is correct, not what another man thinks is correct. Is my questioning so unreasonable.

Yes, God is real. Unfortunately we poorly reflect God an often give poor witness to non-Christians. I meet lots of people who have been wounded by well intentioned believers.

We need to look to Jesus and not to other people who never fail to disappoint. Hypocrisy has been a problem even before Christianity. Jesus condemned the Pharisees, Sadducees and the teachers of the Law. They were Jews who put rules and self-interest ahead of people. Jesus had a heart for people and surrounded himself with sinners who knew that that they were needed salvation. The Pharisees and company were arrogant and proud. They looked at the sins of others while ignoring their own. So nothing has changed in over 2000 years.

Jesus never disappoints. Look to him and not to those who use his name. We have been told that not all who go by his name will be saved. Christianity is all about relationship. It is about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Many people can tell you all about him and what he taught, but they have never really met him. Since God is love and we are told to love one another, as the song says, "They will know we are Christians by our love."

There is no test to get into Heaven. There is nothing that we can do to make God love us any more and there is nothing that we can do to make him love us any less. It starts with God and humbly seeking him. All this requires on our part is an openness and a willingness to receive a free gift. It is that simple. You need to sincerely believe and then to receive. You will get more that you ever thought possible.

I was once an atheist (for the first 30 years of my life). I was brought up in the church, yet never believed. My church attendance only taught me stories. My heart was cold. I saw hypocrisy and was too proud to accept simple truths.

Most atheists believe in something. They reject the one true God and create their own. They elevate science or humanism to a position which should be occupied by God. They are usually proud of their rejection of God, but do not think about what they have replaced him with. Few people believe in nothing.

Blessings,
Dunamite

 

[gadget]

Yes, these words are valid. What I don't agree with is the hierarchy of religions, not to bash on christianity. Freediver, if you are asking, " Is god real?" You definitely aren't defining your terms. Jesus, the greatest teacher I believe, set out to heal the world with His blood! If you don't accept that then you are not a christian. Jesus once asked the woman at the well, " What do you seek?" The most profound, theoretical question of His lifetime.

I am not a religious seeker, which is why I don't proclaim to be Christian. However, I was raised in the Truth, and now seek out the context of a " Divine Principle...in the making"

=]

 

[Free]

freediver,

In my search for the truth I have visited some atheist forums lately and I must confess that their arguments seem rational and logical.

Yes, sometimes their arguments do seem rational and logical. But many arguments are not as sound or rational as they first appear. The same goes for the theist side of the debate.

People here will condemn me for this but it is my right to persue what I think is needed to satisfy my needed logic in a otherwise illogical faith.

It is your right and in fact the Bible encourages seeking the truth and not just blindly accepting everything. But I am curious: What is it that you find illogical?

If it is a christian crime to seek rational thought

No, it is not.

Is my questioning so unreasonable.

No, but as has been pointed out, perhaps you can define things a little more to make them clearer and provide some examples of what you find so irrational.

 

[Free]

What I don't agree with is the hierarchy of religions, not to bash on christianity.

What do you mean by "the hierarchy of religions"?

 

[freediver]

Most atheists believe in something. They reject the one true God and create their own. They elevate science or humanism to a position which should be occupied by God. They are usually proud of their rejection of God, but do not think about what they have replaced him with. Few people believe in nothing.
Blessings,
Dunamite

I see nothing wrong with humanism, I think too many christains are willing to forsake other humans for lack of compassion. I think a lot of christians have replaced a basic respect for their fellow humans with anger and nastiness.
Science has got us the computers we are using now, it has given us medicine and saved countless lives. It is easy to criticize what is taken for granted. We believed in god before science, yet god did not take this time to help the many sick people.

 

[handy]

Lack of compassion, anger and nastiness isn’t exactly "Christian" faults. Pretty much all humans from every philosophical viewpoint share these traits. And though I agree that too many Christians have given up compassion for anger and nastiness (for any is too many), most haven't, just as most non-Christian folks treat others fairly. At least in Western civilizations. From what I've heard first-hand from those who have traveled to Africa and India, compassion can be hard to find in other places. It's hard to be compassionate when basic survival is on the front burner. The beautiful thing is that even in these other countries, where just staying alive is the point to each day, compassion, even generosity, can still be found.

Regarding science, yes I believe that science has benefited mankind greatly. But, it's a mistake to think of science as opposite of religion. Scientists are folks, some of whom are religious some of whom are not. Science itself is a tool, a way to learn in an orderly manner what is factual about any given subject and what isn't.

And, since science is but a tool in the hands of imperfect humans, it has wrought both great achievements as well as horrible atrocities. Even the medications that save countless lives are tainted by the fact that most were developed through the pain and suffering of animals. The computers we are using now have a negative impact on the environment, both in their building and disposal. I've always been a space buff, ever since watching Neil Armstrong walk on the moon while sitting on my Dad's lap. But, I've never had quite the shining enthusiasm for the moon landings when I found out that many former Nazi's were key to unlocking the mysteries of rocket science, and some of the knowledge gained about the effects of space on the human body were gained through the holocaust of the Jews, as well as the torture of animals.

 

[Love]

"Regarding science, yes I believe that science has benefited mankind greatly. But, it's a mistake to think of science as opposite of religion. Scientists are folks, some of whom are religious some of whom are not. Science itself is a tool, a way to learn in an orderly manner what is factual about any given subject and what isn't."

I agree with you on this greatly. Religion and science are not opposites. In fact, Science, in some ways have proven religion. I also know that there are a lot of Christian Scientists. As humans, we are not satisfied with saying that there is a God because it is an absolute answer to most of scientific questions like where did the universe come from, and how did life come to be. If we just accepted the fact that there is a God, then all of those questions would not be argued. We (as humans) are not satisfied with having that faith, we want to find the answer, not just a postulate. It saddens me that some people just can't sit back and enjoy life, that they have to know why. Sit back, relax, and stop and smell the roses. no worries.

 

[Rick W]

Science is a God-given gift to man that he may stand in ever-increasing awe of His power and glory.

Science is the collection of data but the scientist, the human, makes the conclusion. Much like the science of forensics data collection rests on an initial goal. The prosecutor uses science to collect evidence against a defendant while the defense attorney uses science to prove his/her innocence.
No scientist gathers data for no reason. An assumption is first made, science is used to gather evidence to support an idea or theory and the conclusions are made. Science does not generate conclusions. The scientist, the human, does.
Science and scientific conclusion are oftentimes used interchangably as "science" but there is a definate distinction between the two. There are phrases of conclusion such as ... "could have...", "may have...", "there's a possibility that...", "would have..." or "should have..." that can preface a statement of conclusion. The danger lies in using such phrases mixed with the words like "science" or "scientific" to give the impression of "scientific fact".

The more we learn of the universe around and within us the more we should come to glorify the Creator. Using the knowledge thereof is indeed His intention but that does not guarantee man will follow through to draw the proper conclusions. And if we, in the field of medicine for example, give credit to ourselves for the healing rather than acknowledging the gift of love to mankind from God then I'm afraid we've completely missed the point. And on the other side of the coin of we as christians do NOT use science for the betterment of mankind then I strongly feel we have sinned against His gift.

 

[freediver]

Science is a God-given gift to man that he may stand in ever-increasing awe of His power and glory.

Considering my question, I think this statement is rather empty.

An assumption is first made, science is used to gather evidence to support an idea or theory and the conclusions are made. Science does not generate conclusions. The scientist, the human, does.

I disagree, in good science assumptions are never made, theories and possibilities may discussed first in order to create the scientific investigation. Science proves or disproves theories, the human is part of the process but the science is the tool and the standard that all good scientists use, ie; theory, use science to prove/disprove theory, outcome. In pseudo science it is; outcome, use science to prove outcome.

Lack of compassion, anger and nastiness isn’t exactly "Christian" faults.

As this is a christian forum I feel self critisism is justified, they are christian faults I have experienced persanally, including assault, tresspass, intimadation, I am not saying all christians are like this, but I feel it is becoming more entrenched in christianty, to include others is not relevant, it would like saying "well they do it, but we're not as bad."

 

[handy]

I would be interested in hearing your response to my post regarding extra-biblical evidences for a rational belief in God. I know that you wanted to discuss whether or not God is real, and do so without reference to the Bible, so I thought that looking at order in the cosmos might be a place to start.

 

[believer_in_one]

Hello all. I just wanted to interject a thought here. Science as was first instituted was a reasonable tool for gathering information. Unfortunately the premise starts with a hypothesis. Hypothesis' depend on a persons view, sometimes the end result of fact is incorrect. Modern science is born of mistakes. Usually what happens is if an experiment doesn't disprove one's hypothesis, it becomes "fact." Take for instance the Doctrine of humors. Hippocrates system of medicine was used for centuries. Science can only explain things based on physical evidences. if you consider statistical evidences based on probablilites, we are the ultimate "accident." To me anything within even a 1% chance of happening can be viewed as a miracle. These miracles are all around us, thus creation makes sense. If you can explain the reasons why you live, and why you can Love (assuming you do) within science then have at it. Humanity is one of looking at the stars and wonder what it means. The basis of science, is it not? If everything is random chance then whats the point? What is your end means of life?

 

[Vic C.]

As this is a Christian forum I feel self criticism is justified, they are Christian faults I have experienced personally, including assault, trespass, intimidation, I am not saying all Christians are like this, but I feel it is becoming more entrenched in Christianity, to include others is not relevant, it would like saying "well they do it, but we're not as bad."

I feel bad it has become so subjective for you. I've heard some of the same from the likes of Dawkins, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Neil deGrasse Tyson and others. So maybe I'm taking this all subjective too or maybe it's not our subjectivity at all; maybe it the subjectivity of others, of Man in general.

For you it came from people who came across as self righteous and called themselves Christians. For me, it comes from those who either don't believe in God (but waste much time on someone of something they don't believe) or believe they themselves are a god. It's not a religoius problem, it's a Human problem; we have very cold, cold hearts sometimes. :-?

I do know one thing, for me...

God is real. Maybe I believe in His for all the right reasons; maybe It's for all the wrong reasons';maybe it comes form somewhere so deep within myself that's it's realy not from within me at all. I do know it doesn't stem from my imagination. 8-)