Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[FreeGrace]

It will be your choice to walk away from God, because you simple no longer believe.

The prodigal son did walk away from his father, yet remained a son throughout. Walking away from the Father doesn't result in loss of eternal life or salvation.

Those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERSIH, a promise from Jesus Himself. John 10:28

And the gift of God, eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

No one has shown that Rom 11:29 doesn't include eternal life. There is no reason to exclude that gift from the verse.

Eternal life is for believers.

It is given WHEN one believes. They HAVE it, according to Jesus in John 5:24.

 

[reba]

What if the prodigal son had not returned.?

 

[Cygnus]

To claim another is wrong without offering your viewpoint is not edifying or advancing this discussion.

Thanks for your input WIP.
What I did was challenge the poster to read around the verse to see what the content was about.
After they read the entire chapter I was hoping to have a discussion on the text.

Now if that wasn't edifying or advancing the discussion....I don't know what to say.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, it does. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift (Rom 6:23 - 11:29). And eternal life cannot co-exist in the second death. They are absolutely mutually exclusive.

I think the conditional security crowd would answer your question about John 10:28 that "no one" doesn't include themselves, which is a farse, of course.

Because "no one" literally means "no person". So unless those people don't consider themselves persons, then maybe they would have a point.

I agree.

I really wish one from the conditional security crowd would explain the can't snatch you verse.

 

[JLB]

The prodigal son did walk away from his father, yet remained a son throughout. Walking away from the Father doesn't result in loss of eternal life or salvation.

Like Paul illustrates for us from Romans 11, Jesus teaches the same thing.

As long as the son is disconnected from the Father, he is dead spiritually through unbelief (disobedience).

If those who were disconnected do not continue is unbelief (disobedience) then they certainly can be grafted in again, as is the case with the prodical son, as well as those whom Paul illustrates for us in Romans 11.

Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in Hisgoodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief , will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23

You seem to ignore the plain and clear language that is used by the Lord Jesus in His teaching.

...for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:24

The issue is not whether those who turn away from God stop being a son or not, since it has been proven that sons of God can in fact be cast down to hell. 2 Peter 2:4

It's whether a son of God "by faith", stops having the faith by which he became a son of God, and therefore returns to being an un-believer who is dead spiritually.

JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What if the prodigal son had not returned.?

Then it wouldn't of been in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace]

What if the prodigal son had not returned.?

One thing is clear: he would still be the son of the father. That relationship cannot be severed. Fellowship was severed while the son was away, but the relationship remained.

If the son had not returned, and died, then he would have died a son, out of fellowship with his father. As many believers do today.

 

[FreeGrace]

Like Paul illustrates for us from Romans 11, Jesus teaches the same thing.

Yes, I fully agree with this. Paul taught that eternal life is a gift from God in Rom 6:23, and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And Jesus taught that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. Their teaching is completely compatible.

No one has shown that neither taught eternal security.

As long as the son is disconnected from the Father, he is dead spiritually through unbelief (disobedience).

I have never found the word "disconnected" in the Bible and don't know what you mean by this word.

I do find words like abiding, and remaining. But 'disconnected' rings of severed relationship, which I would reject on the basis that birth parent to child relationship, whether physical or spiritual, cannot be severed. And no one has shown from Scripture that such a relationship has EVER been severed.

So please choose a biblical word.

You seem to ignore the plain and clear language that is used by the Lord Jesus in His teaching.

...for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:24

Easy. Fellowship between them was "dead". Not relationship. The son remained the son throughout the parable, and the father remained the father. That did not change. The only thing that did change was fellowship. It was severed or broken or died at the beginning of the parable and was restored at the end of the parable.

If you disagree, please explain.

The issue is not whether those who turn away from God stop being a son or not, since it has been proven that sons of God can in fact be cast down to hell. 2 Peter 2:4

This is another apples to oranges comparison, which is not valid. I'm talking only about the spiritual and physical relationship between parent and child. That cannot be applied to angels in any sense, so it is invalid.

[QUTOE]It's whether a son of God "by faith", stops having the faith by which he became a son of God, and therefore returns to being an un-believer who is dead spiritually.[/QUOTE]
Please show me any verse that teaches that when one stops believing, they stop being a son, or return to being spiritually dead. In fact, that is impossible, because those who have been given eternal life CANNOT PERISH.

iow, eternal life CANNOT die. If it can die, it wasn't eternal to begin with. That is the huge problem with conditional security.

 

[JLB]

Yes, I fully agree with this. Paul taught that eternal life is a gift from God in Rom 6:23, and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And Jesus taught that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. Their teaching is completely compatible.

No one has shown that neither taught eternal security.

Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief , will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23


What does this phrase mean to you... Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

Paul says this is a reference to "unbelief"... not an unbelief as in "never believed", but an unbelief that caused them to become
"broken off", in which they will remain in this "broken off" condition until they believe again... as he says -
And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief , will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul warns the Church at Rome, that they too could become "broken off", if they did not continue...


Jesus gave us them same illustration...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Abide means to continue to remain connected.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is another apples to oranges comparison, which is not valid. I'm talking only about the spiritual and physical relationship between parent and child. That cannot be applied to angels in any sense, so it is invalid.

[QUTOE]It's whether a son of God "by faith", stops having the faith by which he became a son of God, and therefore returns to being an un-believer who is dead spiritually.

Please show me any verse that teaches that when one stops believing, they stop being a son, or return to being spiritually dead. In fact, that is impossible, because those who have been given eternal life CANNOT PERISH.

iow, eternal life CANNOT die. If it can die, it wasn't eternal to begin with. That is the huge problem with conditional security.

[/QUOTE]

Two things you don't seem to take into account:

The angels who were cast down to hell, are sons of God.
These angels that were cast down to hell will not cease to exist, but to continue in the everlasting fires of hell.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41,46



JLB

 

[JLB]

I do find words like abiding, and remaining. But 'disconnected' rings of severed relationship, which I would reject on the basis that birth parent to child relationship, whether physical or spiritual, cannot be severed.

I haven't found anyone who has said that a son, "stops being a son". Just ask Lucifer!

You choose to ignore the truth of the scriptures.

for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry. Luke 15:24



JLB

 

[JLB]

One thing is clear: he would still be the son of the father. That relationship cannot be severed. Fellowship was severed while the son was away, but the relationship remained.

If the son had not returned, and died, then he would have died a son, out of fellowship with his father. As many believers do today.

So "lost" doesn't really mean lost, but is "redefined" to mean "out of fellowship"?

The context:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


The sheep was with the Shepard, then wandered off, and became lost.

Jesus calls the person in this condition a sinner.


So does James.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


The son repented and came back to relationship with his father, and his father restored him, because he repented.

21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief , will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23


What does this phrase mean to you... Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

I have already explained it, but am happy to explain it again. The passage is about being of service to God. That's what the Jews were chosen for; to serve God. And they blew it. So God turned to the Gentiles. And v.22 warns the Gentiles that they must not doubt God if they want to be of service to Him.

The reason that this passage CANNOT possibly teach loss of salvation is because of all the other verses and passages that clearly DO teach eternal security.

For example, Paul said that eternal life is a gift of God, along with justification in Rom 6:23 and 3:24, and 5:15,16,17. Then he said that God's gifts are irrevocable. That means that God WILL NOT take those gifts away. In other epistles, the Holy Spirit is said to be a gift, as well as in Acts 8. All this proves that salvation cannot be lost.

But there's more than that. Jesus taught that when one believes, they HAVE eternal life in Jn 5:24. Then in Jn 10:28 He promised that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

I don't see how it could be said any more clear.

Those have have been given eternal life (are saved) WILL NEVER PERISH.

That proves that once saved, always saved. That is the teaching of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

Two things you don't seem to take into account:

The angels who were cast down to hell, are sons of God.
These angels that were cast down to hell will not cease to exist, but to continue in the everlasting fires of hell.

It is what you aren't taking into account that is the problem. I've thoroughly explained what I mean by "sons of God".

I'm referring ONLY to those who have been said to be "born again", "regenerated" and through faith in Christ are given the RIGHT to be children of God (Jn 1:12).

Can you point to any verse where any angels have been called "sons of God" by virtue of being "born again", or "regenerated", or through faith in Christ have been given the RIGHT to be children of God? No, of course you can't.

So every time you bring up angels as examples of "sons of God" who will spend eternity in the second death is irrelevant to the discussion.

Can you point to any verse that indicates that angels have been given the gift of eternal life? Again, no, of course you can't.

Jesus told us that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

 

[FreeGrace]

I haven't found anyone who has said that a son, "stops being a son". Just ask Lucifer!

You choose to ignore the truth of the scriptures.

That's your opinion. [Deleted inappropriate comment. WIP] I fully understand the difference between how the Bible describes angels as "sons of God" vs human beings, who are "sons of God" THROUGH faith in Christ, and have been born again, regenerated and have been given the RIGHT to be called the children of God.

No angels can claim that. So there is an obvious difference between angels and humans. You are only trying to compare apples to oranges. Which doesn't work. Totally irrelevant.

 

[FreeGrace]

So "lost" doesn't really mean lost, but is "redefined" to mean "out of fellowship"?

How is that a redefinition? It's an explanation. Were the father and son having any fellowship when the son left? No.

Were they STILL IN RELATIONSHIP when the son left? Yes, according to Jesus. Because Jesus still referred to the son as a son and the father as the father. That cannot change. Fellowship certainly can and does change.

The son repented and came back to relationship with his father, and his father restored him, because he repented.

You are using the word 'relationship' to mean 'fellowship'. A mistake. They were ALWAYS in relationship; father to son. That never changed.

What changed was that fellowship was restored when the son repented, confessed and returned.

21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ JLB

OK, what word immediately follows this admission by the son?

22 “BUT the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robeand put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on hisfeet;

Notice that the father interrupted the son's stupid statement. Notice also what the son further intended to tell his father:

18 ‘I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’

What I love about Jesus' parable is how he allows the sloppy thinking of the son to be expressed, but has the father interrupt the son's nonsense immediately after the proper confession. Because what the son was prepared to say after the confession was RIDICULOUS, STUPID and nonsense. And the father didn't let him get it out.

Believers don't have to beg God to take them back. Which seems to be your view of things.

The parable clearly shows that God IN GRACE always takes back His wayward children when they confess and repent.

Regardless of worthiness or NOT, a son will always be a son, and the father will always be the father. Worthiness is IRRELEVANT to relationship. It is totally relevant to fellowship. That's the difference and that's how to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

 

[JLB]

I've thoroughly explained what I mean by "sons of God".

What "you mean" by sons of God and what the scripture teach us, sons of God are is where the issue is.

You have shown this Forum over and over that you intend "redefine" and "re-package" biblical definitions to fit your man conceived doctrine.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7

• The sons of God were angels who were present with the Lord during creation.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Job 2:1-2

• Again the sons of God were before the Lord, and were not on earth... as Satan had come from the earth to where they were.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

• ... equal to the angels and are sons of God.

Peter refers to the angels who were disobedient during the days of Noah, and were responsible for bringing God's Judgement upon the earth by the flood.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. Genesis 6:1-2

• and again

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

• Jude also warns us the fate of angels, as sons of God...

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 5-6


... the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, is a direct reference to Genesis 6 -
that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

• those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


Angels are sons of God, and were cast down to hell.

Those who were directly created by God are sons of God, as he is the Father of spirits, being their creator, just as Adam was created by God, and is called a son of God. Luke 3:38 - the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's your opinion. I choose to rightly divide the Word of Truth, and I fully understand the difference between how the Bible describes angels as "sons of God" vs human beings, who are "sons of God" THROUGH faith in Christ, and have been born again, regenerated and have been given the RIGHT to be called the children of God.

No angels can claim that. So there is an obvious difference between angels and humans. You are only trying to compare apples to oranges. Which doesn't work. Totally irrelevant.

Those who are worthy to attain the resurrection, will be called sons of God.

For now at this present time, we are sons of God by faith.

By faith meas we have the hope of becoming sons of God in reality, when we attain to the resurrection.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for... the evidence of things not seen.

If you still have faith for something, then you are hoping for the reality of that thing.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

again

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


JLB

 

[JLB]

How is that a redefinition? It's an explanation. Were the father and son having any fellowship when the son left? No.

Were they STILL IN RELATIONSHIP when the son left? Yes, according to Jesus. Because Jesus still referred to the son as a son and the father as the father. That cannot change. Fellowship certainly can and does change.

Lost in the context of Luke 15 means lost as in a sinner is lost, and needs to be saved.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus told us that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

False!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop stating your opinion, and claim you are quoting Jesus, when you omit the words He said.


25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:25-30


Those who believe are His sheep: they hear His Voice, They follow Me... I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to being "unbelievers".


JLB