Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Hospes]

What "you mean" by sons of God and what the scripture teach us, sons of God are is where the issue is.

You have shown this Forum over and over that you intend "redefine" and "re-package" biblical definitions to fit your man conceived doctrine.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7

• The sons of God were angels who were present with the Lord during creation.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Job 2:1-2

• Again the sons of God were before the Lord, and were not on earth... as Satan had come from the earth to where they were.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

• ... equal to the angels and are sons of God.

Peter refers to the angels who were disobedient during the days of Noah, and were responsible for bringing God's Judgement upon the earth by the flood.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. Genesis 6:1-2

• and again

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

• Jude also warns us the fate of angels, as sons of God...

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 5-6


... the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, is a direct reference to Genesis 6 -
that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

• those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


Angels are sons of God, and were cast down to hell.

Those who were directly created by God are sons of God, as he is the Father of spirits, being their creator, just as Adam was created by God, and is called a son of God. Luke 3:38 - the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

JLB,

Asking a point of clarification:

Are you making an equivalence of those humans whom God ultimately saves with angels? Another way of asking , if I end up in heaven via salvation through Christ, are you proposing I will join Gabriel, Michael, etc. as one of them? If not, could you spell out the differences between those who are saved through the Gospel to the un-fallen angels who are servants of God?

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

Are you making an equivalence of those humans whom God ultimately saves with angels? Another way of asking , if I end up in heaven via salvation through Christ, are you proposing I will join Gabriel, Michael, etc. as one of them?

If you are worthy to attain to the resurrection, then you will have become "in reality" a son of God, as the angels.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


Humans, sons of men, are a little lower than the angels.

“What is man that You are mindful of him, Or the son of man that You take care of him?
You have made him a little lower than the angels; Hebrews 2:6-7


JLB

 

[JLB]

If not, could you spell out the differences between those who are saved through the Gospel to the un-fallen angels who are servants of God?

Both are referred to as sons of God.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

What "you mean" by sons of God and what the scripture teach us, sons of God are is where the issue is.

I've already shown the different kinds of "sons of God". To treat them all the same is no different than trying to compare apples to oranges.

You have shown this Forum over and over that you intend "redefine" and "re-package" biblical definitions to fit your man conceived doctrine.

Is being born again, regenerated, and being given the right to become the children of God a "man conceived doctrine"? Really?? Why would you think that?

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7

Sure, I get it. The Bible refers to angels as "sons of God". But please show me, IF they are "sons of God" the SAME WAY that humans BECOME sons of God through faith in Christ.

This verse is my determining factor in dealing with "sons of God".
Gal 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Please show me any verse that describes any angel this way. Or you won't have a point.

There is not one angel who is a "son of God" through faith in Christ. None.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Job 2:1-2

I don't see any mention that these angels became sons of God through faith in Christ. Therefore, these verses are not relevant to my discussion.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

We know from Gal 3:26 HOW these humans BECAME sons of God; through faith in Christ.

Can you show me any verses that describe any angels who became sons of God through faith in Christ? No.

Angels are sons of God, and were cast down to hell.

Unless you can show me any verses that indicate that angels became sons of God through faith in Christ, you have just missed the whole point of my discussion.

I am only talking about humans, who BECAME sons of God through faith in Christ. This applies to NO angels.

Those who were directly created by God are sons of God, as he is the Father of spirits, being their creator, just as Adam was created by God, and is called a son of God. Luke 3:38 - the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

JLB

I don't argue any of this. But I am speaking SPECIFICALLY about humans, NOT angels, who BECAME sons of God through faith in Christ.

NO HUMAN was created as a son of God other than Adam. All other humans became sons of God through faith in Christ. That is the ONLY category that I am speaking about.

Your point is totally misplaced. Apples to oranges.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who are worthy to attain the resurrection, will be called sons of God.

For now at this present time, we are sons of God by faith.

That is exactly what I am talking about; those humans (not angels) who become sons of God through faith in Christ per Gal 3:26. No other "son of God" applies.

By faith meas we have the hope of becoming sons of God in reality, when we attain to the resurrection.

Please look up the Greek meaning for "hope" in this verse. It means "confident expectation". Not wishing for something that may or may not occur, as is used in today's vernacular.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for... the evidence of things not seen.

Again, please look up the Greek meaning for 'hope'. It's not what you seem to think.

If you still have faith for something, then you are hoping for the reality of that thing.

Not me. I have the CONFIDENCE of the reality. I'm not wishing for anything.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

This verse, along with Gal 3:26 is the ONLY category of "sons of God" that I am speaking about.

All the verses about angels being called the sons of God are irrelevant. Because none of the angels BECAME sons of God through faith in Christ.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.JLB

Please look up the Greek meaning for the word "hope".

It's not what you seem to think it means.

 

[FreeGrace]

Lost in the context of Luke 15 means lost as in a sinner is lost, and needs to be saved.

How do you know this? Please support your claim with exegesis.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

Were any of these "lost sheep" ever dead, and needed to be regenerated again? No.

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents.JLB

This proves nothing nor refutes my point about the prodigal son.

What was lost was fellowship; intimacy with the father. Not relationship, which cannot be severed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Jesus told us that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH."

False!!!!!!!!!!!

Amazing!! Here is the actual verse:
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

So, how is my statement 'false'???

The word "them" are the SAME people as the "they". iow, to those He gives eternal life, will never perish.

Stop stating your opinion, and claim you are quoting Jesus, when you omit the words He said

Please actually read John 10:28 and THEN explain how my statement is 'false'.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:25-30
Those who believe are His sheep: they hear His Voice, They follow Me... I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.

So you are suggesting that only those sheep who follow Him are given eternal life??? Is that your position??

He was clear about HOW one becomes a sheep of His. A saved sheep. That is found in an earlier part of ch 10.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

We find the phrase "the sheep", the very ones Jesus would lay down His life for: v.11 and 15

The phrase "enters through Me" is equivalent to what Jesus said in Jn 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

So, to be one of His sheep, one must "enter through Him, the door of the sheep. This is a figure of speech referring to believing in Him for eternal life. That's what "enter through Him" means.

Can you prove some other message that He meant rather than what I am presenting?

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to being "unbelievers".

OK, just more of your opinion again. You've still failed to show any Scripture that supports this opinion that ceasing to believe results in loss of salvation.

That is such an important fact, if it were true, that the Bible would absolutely spell it out so clearly that even I would be able to understand the message. So, where is that message buried in the Bible? I haven't found it yet.

Please think about this. From all you've posted and disagreed with me about, it seems to me that your view boils down to this: one must be good enough to get to heaven. If one fails to be good enough, even though they have been given eternal life, they will still go to hell.

My trust is in the absolute goodness of Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross for me, because I know that I cannot be good enough to get to heaven.

What are you trusting in to get to heaven? Please don't say "faith in Christ", because you also believe that those who have at a point in time (aorist tense) done that still may end up in hell.

iow, what's keeping you out of hell?

 

[FreeGrace]

If you are worthy to attain to the resurrection, then you will have become "in reality" a son of God, as the angels.

So, this is rather different than Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved.

How does a human become "worthy to attain" to the resurrection?

Humans, sons of men, are a little lower than the angels.

Not so fast. Jn 1:12 and Gal 3:26 describe some humans as sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

Both are referred to as sons of God. JLB

Are you willing to admit there is a huge difference between HOW humans and angels are sons of God?

 

[JLB]

Are you willing to admit there is a huge difference between HOW humans and angels are sons of God?

I am will to examine the scriptures you have that validate your statement: there is a huge difference between HOW humans and angels are sons of God?

Once difference is angels are sons of God, humans will "become sons of God" if they are worthy to attain to the resurrection.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

• But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead...are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

For now, at this time and in this age, we as sons of men are a little lower than the angels.

Those who are worthy to attain the age to come and the resurrection of the dead are equal to the angels.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not so fast. Jn 1:12 and Gal 3:26 describe some humans as sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Here is what John 1:12 says.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

Notice it says exactly what I have been saying, that we who believe have the right to become sons of God.

Now we are sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

This by definition means we have the hope of becoming sons of God, which is what John 1:12 and what Jesus said in Luke 20:34-36.

Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for... the evidence of things not yet seen [obtained, realized, manifested]

If you have faith for something, then by default you have not yet obtained the thing you are hoping for...

as Paul says, who hopes for what they already have?

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

If we hope for what we do not see, [what we have not yet obtained]... we wait for it, with perseverance.

We wait for it...

What is the "it" we are waiting for, with perseverance?

Do you know the answer?

Peter says it this way...

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1;6-9


Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.


When we have received the salvation of our soul, and have attained to the resurrection of the dead, at the coming of the Lord, we will have obtained in reality the salvation of our souls, and will no longer have faith for salvation, but we will have realized the hope we now have for the salvation of our soul.

For now we have the hope of salvation... and have been given the right to become, sons of God.

Just exactly like John 1:12 says -

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not so fast. Gal 3:26 describe some humans as sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26


See above!


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I am will to examine the scriptures you have that validate your statement: there is a huge difference between HOW humans and angels are sons of God?

Once difference is angels are sons of God, humans will "become sons of God" if they are worthy to attain to the resurrection.

Thank you for totally ignoring my point. There is no reason for further discussion, since you are unwilling to examine my point at all.

My point is about those who BECOME children of God through faith in Christ. I asked for any verses that show that any angels become sons of God through faith in Christ.

And you can't do that. So discussion is over. You're just not willing to accept those who become sons of God through faith and you keep bringing up created angels as sons of God. Totally irrelevant. Apples and oranges.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what John 1:12 says.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

Notice it says exactly what I have been saying, that we who believe have the right to become sons of God.

Can you point to any angels who fulfill Jn 1:12? Or Gal 3:26?

Now we are sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

Can any angel fit this requirement? Prove it from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26
See above!
JLB

Who was Paul addressing there; angels or humans?

 

[JLB]

Who was Paul addressing there; angels or humans?

Those who were sons of God by faith, which is certainly a reference to humans, since angels are sons of God in reality.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Can you point to any angels who fulfill Jn 1:12? Or Gal 3:26?


Can any angel fit this requirement? Prove it from Scripture.

Angels are sons of God, not "by faith" but in reality.

They don't need "to become" sons of God, but are sons of God.

I defeated your "theory" by proving that angels are sons of God, and that sons of God were cast into hell.


Case Closed!


JLB

 

[JLB]

Thank you for totally ignoring my point. There is no reason for further discussion, since you are unwilling to examine my point at all.

My point is about those who BECOME children of God through faith in Christ. I asked for any verses that show that any angels become sons of God through faith in Christ.

And you can't do that. So discussion is over. You're just not willing to accept those who become sons of God through faith and you keep bringing up created angels as sons of God. Totally irrelevant. Apples and oranges.

No scripture again?

My point is you need to post scriptures, as I'm not discussing your opinion.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who were sons of God by faith, which is certainly a reference to humans, since angels are sons of God in reality.


JLB

Thank you. That was my point about "sons of God". Only applies to humans who BECAME sons of God. Not angels, who were created "sons of God".

I hope this helps.

 

[FreeGrace]

Angels are sons of God, not "by faith" but in reality.

They don't need "to become" sons of God, but are sons of God.

I defeated your "theory" by proving that angels are sons of God, and that sons of God were cast into hell.

No, what you did was defeat yourself by your irrational attempt to try to compare humans, who BECOME sons of God through faith in Christ, with angels who are created as sons of God. Apples to oranges, and all you've done is prove that you don't see any difference.

Do you call apples oranges? Or oranges apples? Do they taste and look the same to you?

Case Closed!
JLB

Mind closed is how it looks to me.