Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering, The word "Trinity" is not a Roman Concept, but a Roman word to title the doctrine of The father, Son, and Holy Ghost. There are two reasons for Biblical Doctrines: To teach and explain a Scriptural occurrence beforehand; and then to confirm the change and condition of what occurs in a born again believer. (1 Cor. 1:6-9) as a guarantee (Eph. 1:13-15); The power of God in us (John 1:12-13); His Deity (John 1:1-5); The new man (1 Cor. 5:16-18). All of these and more are Doctrines of the Bible to the novice. But to the born again believer, they are a confirmation to the change in our life by rebirth of the new man in Christ. The Father gave us a new man in the likeness of Christ with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ). The Scriptures make it clear to the born again believer that there are three entities: The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, But one God (1 John 5:6-8) each has it's own will, but it is always the will of God in all three (all agree). Just as the Real body of Christ is many members but yet, one body (1 Cor. Chapter 12) (John 14:17; 15:26) (John chapters 14,15, and 16) Please study them,

The use of the word "TRINITY" is from the early ROMAN Catholic fathers; Ignatius of Antioch; Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch and Tertullian to name a few. The important thing is not to debate about the word or doctrine, but what has changed in your life that confirms the regeneration of your heart, mind and soul, You see, we are a trinity also or three in one body. (Matt. 22:37)

In Christ
Doug.

Hi Doug,
I agree with everything you've written above except one sentence - the one I highlighted and underlined.

The Holy Spirit is not the spirit of Christ, but an individual person. The way you say it would make it seem that the Holy Spirit is a part of Jesus, and not individual from Him (although the same substance as God, the One God).

No matter how much we try, the Trinity if very difficult to explain.

You're correct, of course, about the use of the term. In my post no. 5, I had copied and pasted the following:

The first of the early church fathers recorded as using the word Trinity was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late second century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia) in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation. The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early third century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy.

I believe civilwarbuff explained it very simply and correctly in post no. 119.

Wondering

 

[Randy]

You renounce Jesus' own statements that He is the Father?

He stated that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. In that manner they are one. The Father is His God. Jesus is Gods Son.
Randy

 

[Randy]

Why did the guards collapse when Jesus said "I AM"?
Why throughout the bible when angels would appear and people tried to worship them the angels forbade them from doing so...but when people worshipped Jesus He did not forbid them? Like all unorthodox Christian cults you just can't stand Christ being in His rightful place.

Actually its easier to tell you what you want to hear then to tell you the truth in this manner yet God has made me a rock in this. I am not a cult. Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.

I believe Jesus is currently at the right hand of power in Heaven. Is that not His right place? I don't believe Jesus is an angel. Hebrews=>"about the Son" (I believe all that is written about Jesus)

Jesus has been found worthy by God:
Rev 5
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spiritsa of God sent out into all the earth. 7He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reignb on the earth.”
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[Free]

The scriptures that carry Jesus statements that He and the Father are one. And that when the disciples saw Jesus they saw the Father.

I would submit that I do not misunderstand .

I also submit that you misunderstand. The evidence is overwhelming that the Father is not the Son. Indeed, that doesn't even make rational sense. How can a Father be his own Son or a Son his own Father? Sons are distinct from Fathers, by definition. With that in mind, we know that when Jesus says he and his Father are one, that it simply cannot mean they are one and the same person. There are other ways of understanding such statements.

In Deuteronomy were learned our God is one. Monotheism. One God.
When God is primal origin, first cause, source of all things, then there is no thing that is not God. Or born of God becasue it is that Holy Spirit that is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end.

That is why I specifically stated that Deut. 6:4 is about monotheism, not the nature of God. It does not tell us anything about whether or not God is triune or something else. It only shows us there is one God and that is what the doctrine of the Trinity states.

Jesus is not exclusive of His Father. He Is innately His Father. Just as Jesus stated so that we may understand and as are recalled in His word. The Word gave His word.
We live for that. We live with that truth inside us. How is it we rewrite that Word when it doesn't say what we can bear to live with?

Jesus most certainly is not his Father. As I stated, that simply is not rational. To say that Jesus is his own Father is to ignore much of what he says and what the rest of the NT says.

I don't speak for what Jesus meant to imply. I read what Jesus taught me with his own lips, recalled by faithful servants unto that as I am now. Our people, Christians , have been butchered for believing in The Word that gave His word.
When Jesus tells me that He and His Father are One I believe. There is no argument in The Word. Just in the people that believe what they read.

You are reading something that is not there because you are ignoring context.

This is relationship.

Relationship is a great point to bring up. Relationship only exists between two or more persons. If Jesus is the Father, there is no relationship, no love. We see that Scripture tells us God is love, but love requires an object otherwise it is narcissism. Only in the Trinity can we truly say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have existed in an eternal loving relationship.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I agree with everything you've written above except one sentence - the one I highlighted and underlined.

The Holy Spirit is not the spirit of Christ, but an individual person. The way you say it would make it seem that the Holy Spirit is a part of Jesus, and not individual from Him (although the same substance as God, the One God).

Yes, That is what three different entities means. Each with it's own will that is in perfect agreement with the other two. But it is the same Spirit of Christ that we are born with and that led Christ. (Matt. 4:1). The same Spirit (as you pointed out) that Christ sent to tell of the things of Christ to come upon His body (the Church).

 

[Mustard Socks]

Philippians 2:6-8

 

[Douglas Summers]

Philippians 2:6-8

Good verse.

 

[GodsGrace]

Philippians 2:6-8

Hi Mustard Socks
This is an important verse. I'll repeat myself and say that Jesus was born approximately 2,000 years ago.
But the Son and 2nd person of the Trinity always existed as God always existed. He existed as the Word of God, or thought, of God. Thus John, who knew Jesus very well, could proclaim this in John 1:1.

 

[Mike]

He stated that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. In that manner they are one. The Father is His God. Jesus is Gods Son.
Randy

Revelation 1

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Given the context of these verses, who do you say these words belong to?

 

[Randy]

Revelation 1

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Given the context of these verses, who do you say these words belong to?

I would state those words belong to the Father. The Spirit utters/conveys what He hears from the mind of the Spirit.

Jesus has always been the Son. The Son that was (his spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.
Jesus=>what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

The Father is in the Son.
Jesus=>Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Father in regard to Jesus=>This is My Son......

Father in regard to the Son=>therefore God your God......The Father has alway been God of the Son.
Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Jesus uses truth.

Randy

 

[Randy]

Hi Mustard Socks
This is an important verse. I'll repeat myself and say that Jesus was born approximately 2,000 years ago.
But the Son and 2nd person of the Trinity always existed as God always existed. He existed as the Word of God, or thought, of God. Thus John, who knew Jesus very well, could proclaim this in John 1:1.

Gods firstborn would be a being not a thought or word and such a being would state, "before Abraham was born I Am"

When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.

Jesus is the word in that God spoke through Him to the world in these last days. The Father in Him doing His work teaching Jesus what to state and how to state things. Therefore those who believe in what Jesus uttered from the Spirit of His Father and God believe in the one who sent Him. And Jesus knew that those words (the Fathers command) leads to eternal life.

Randy

 

[LovethroughDove]

Philippians 2:6-8

Philippians 2:5-7 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. NIV

Some of the versions of this verse make it sound like Christ thought he is equal to the Father. He did not and we should not think of ourselves that way either.

 

[GodsGrace]

Gods firstborn would be a being not a thought or word and such a being would state, "before Abraham was born I Am"

When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.

Jesus is the word in that God spoke through Him to the world in these last days. The Father in Him doing His work teaching Jesus what to state and how to state things. Therefore those who believe in what Jesus uttered from the Spirit of His Father and God believe in the one who sent Him. And Jesus knew that those words (the Fathers command) leads to eternal life.

Randy

What you say above does not reconcile with John 1:1

Jesus is not the Word in that God spoke thru Him to the World.
In the beginning was the Word, or Logos, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD.

You're right that God spoke through Jesus while Jesus was on earth, and also about everything else.

Jesus was indeed the Thought of God. This thought was the 2nd person of the Trinity and became Jesus the Messiah.
The Trinity is impossible to really explain, but it is theologically accepted that God is the Creator, Jesus is the thought of God and the Holy Spirit is the breath of God.-

I hope I haven't misunderstood you.

 

[Free]

Philippians 2:6-8

What about it? Posting Scripture without explaining what it means or showing how it is relevant to one's position is usually meaningless.

 

[Free]

Philippians 2:5-7 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. NIV

Some of the versions of this verse make it sound like Christ thought he is equal to the Father. He did not and we should not think of ourselves that way either.

Where does it say that Jesus didn't think that he was equal to the Father?

(Corrected for double negative.)

 

[LovethroughDove]

Where does it say that Jesus didn't think that he was not equal to the Father?

Even referring to God as Father.........shows "his" honor of Father and doesn't put himself equal.

 

[Free]

Do these scriptures prove that there is only ONE God, the Father who art in Heaven? Where does it say in these scriptures that there are 3 gods in 1 god?

No one is claiming that there are three Gods in one God because that is not what the Bible teaches, which is why the doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that either.

 

[Free]

Even referring to God as Father.........shows "his" honor of Father and doesn't put himself equal.

You gave Phil. 2:5-7 as evidence that Jesus didn't think that he was equal to the Father. Where in that passage does it state that?

(See my previous post as I misspoke.)

 

[LovethroughDove]

You gave Phil. 2:5-7 as evidence that Jesus didn't think that he was equal to the Father. Where in that passage does it state that?

(See my previous post as I misspoke.)

"did not consider equality with God". ........... this is where

 

[Free]

The Lord has revealed to me that the Holy Spirit and the Son of God mean the same thing. The Holy Spirit is the messenger ( messiah ) that delivered the words of God in our minds that we speak for God. This is also known as the Gospel of God or Word of God or Voice of God. They all mean the same exact thing and that's why that passage in John 1:1. There is only God and His Word. Everything we experience visibly ( flesh and other objects ) and invisibly ( thoughts from God ) come from the thoughts called God and His Word.

The Holy Spirit and the Son are not referring to the same thing, the same person.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)

Jesus, in speaking of the sending of the Holy Spirit, says that the Holy Spirit is "another helper." That means it is someone other than himself. When we are asked if we want another piece of cake, we don't take that to mean we are being asked if we want the exact same piece of cake that we just ate. We understand that it is a different piece. There is a similarity--cake--but a difference.