Jesus is not YHVH

[jocor]

Was the Old Testament written in Hebrew or Greek?

JLB

Hebrew. However, since we don't know what Hebrew words he spoke in John 8:58, we can only go by what we have in Greek. If his words were faithfully rendered in Greek and he was trying to claim that he was the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, then, IMO, the Greek should read "ho on", as in the LXX, not "ego eimi".

 

[jasonc]

The kine greek,it wouldn't have evolutions.ie proto hebrew texts,ancient hebrew texts.shoot.bits of the tanach predate the Qumran texts and are in old hebrew whose alphabet is different.Jesus spoke Aramaic mostly not hebrew.the samaritans spoke no hebrew

 

[JLB]

Hebrew. However, since we don't know what Hebrew words he spoke in John 8:58, we can only go by what we have in Greek. If his words were faithfully rendered in Greek and he was trying to claim that he was the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, then, IMO, the Greek should read "ho on", as in the LXX, not "ego eimi".

We can certainly read the context, and the actions of the Pharisee's that were written for us in scripture to see exactly Who Jesus claimed He is.

Your whole MO has been to bring doubt and denial upon God's word with your claim of this translation is bad or this translation is better, while ignoring what the plain words of the scripture say.

Read what is said here by The Lord.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59

Are we to believe these Jews misunderstood the language Jesus spoke?

His words were so clear that the didn't ask Him again, as to what He said or meant, they just picked up stones to stone Him to death for claiming He was God, YHWH, the I AM that declared His name to Moses from the burning bush.


Here's what I do know for sure. Those who practice the religion of Judaism, don't believe Jesus is Lord, as they picked up stones to stone Him.

Has that changed over the years?

Do those who practice Judaism, believe Jesus is the Lord, or do they believe He is just a man?



JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus wasn't trying to claim that he was the I Am he Is the I AM, i certainly hope there aren't young believers watching this.. we don't need linguistics teachers we need Gods holy spirit to guild us into all truth its that simple...

 

[JLB]

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
So then, "God our Saviour", in this verse, refers to the Father who is distinguished from the Son.

You assume that there are two Saviors, because you deny Godhead as being Three, which are One.

There is one Savior, just as there is one God that is manifested in the Three persons of the Godhead.

Elohim, is a plural word for God.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7


Without Christ Jesus being raised from the dead, there would be no Savior.


Who raised Jesus from the dead?

God:
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Galatians 1:1

Jesus:
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them;and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

The Holy Spirit:
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11

and again

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:18


One God and Savior as represented by Three.


Not two Saviors.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Beyond arguing the concept itself, what I am looking for is the origin of the phrase, 'God begets God' which you have used. Obviously, the phrase itself is not scriptural so it must be attributed to someone, some doctrine, creed or ...? Are you able to point to it to aid my understanding of it's foundation. Thanks

Other than the scripture I posted, I can only say that God is Holy, which means in it's simplest expression, God is pure.

There is nothing else "mixed" with God, other than God.

God begets God, as Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father.

Jesus is not the only son, but only begotten Son, the firstborn over creation.

He appeared as the Angel of the Lord, the Lord and God in the Old Testament to many.

One couple in particular, asked Him His name.

Do you know what He said?

17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”




JLB

 

[ezrider]

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

 

[JohnDB]

Hear oh Israel, the LORD, the Lord God is one.

 

[JLB]

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:18-23


Jesus is the Word, [expression of thought] of God.
Jesus expresses the Father's will as the Word.

When Jesus speaks, through the mouth of a prophet or His own mouth, He is the perfect expression of God, and God's will.


JLB

 

[smaller]

This thread started out bad by trying to impose some kind of separation between God and Jesus, which is a basic foul of relatively standard christian theology.

The appearance of God, yes God in the flesh is a Great Mystery that has many layers of deep interests to observe. A believer can spend a lifetime in contemplation of this matter and I'm expecting an eternity contemplating the same Depths of Him who made us.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

There are 3 great mysteries to engage in the Word that are purposefully masked.

The mystery of Christ and the church.
The mystery of God's Appearance(s)
The mystery of Babylon, the great.

As in any good mystery even in the novels of mankind, we often don't connect all the clues and details until the end of the narratives.

 

[Jim Parker]

Many believe that Jesus is YHVH.
For starters, Jehovah, Yahweh and LORD are translations of the four letters denoting God's name as I shall refer to as YHVH. Notice that in LORD, they are all caps. In your translations, when you see LORD in all CAPS, it could have been translated as Jehovah or Yahweh and in it's original language, it is represented as four characters I'll represent as YHVH. Do not mistake LORD for Lord as they are two different words with two completely different meanings within the OT writings.

First. In general, Christians don't "believe that Jesus is 'YHWH'." They believe He is "God".

So your major premise is false. (And being false, it renders the remainder of your post invalid as well.)

And, just as an excursus, it has been my experience that people who insist on using the names Yahweh and Yeshua are very often posers who are attempting to sound erudite and to appear to be in possession of some deep knowledge with which they can impress and astound us all. (yawn) And it has been my experience also that they consistently lack the theological training to support their assumed role. I'm not saying that's you; I'm just saying that has been my experience.

But as to the word "LORD" in the OT:

When you see LORD (all caps) it is translating "YHWH ELOHIM" or "ELOHIM". (Elohim is the most often word used in the OT to refer to God; it is found 2602 times in the Hebrew Bible ) It comes from the use of the Greek word "KURIOS" in the Septuagint (LXX) which was the most commonly used scriptures at the time of Jesus and in which Yahweh Elohim was translated as Kurios..

The Capitalizing of the word "LORD" in modern translations reflects the LXX usage and is confined to the Old Testament.

Theologically:

There is one God Who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Trinity in unity. In the New Testament, the words "Lord" and "God" are used to refer to that one, triune God.

And example is Elizabeth's greeting of Mary at Luke 1:43 “But why is this granted to me,(Elizabeth) that the mother (Mary) of my Lord (Jesus) should come to me? In this question, Elizabeth identifies Jesus as God by referring to Him as "my Lord."

Many who believe that Jesus is YHVH use John 1 as their proof texts.

John 1:1 specifically and unequivocally states that the Word who became flesh (as Jesus of Nazareth) is God. The word used for "God" is the Greek "THEOS" not the Hebrew YHWH or Elohim or YHWH Elohim or El or Adoni or any of the many other names of God used by the Hebrews. And, at the time of Jesus, the Jews would commonly refer to God as "the Name" so as to avoid taking God's name in vain.

And, yes, I do have the formal theological training.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus is the Word, [expression of thought] of God.
Jesus expresses the Father's will as the Word.

When Jesus speaks, through the mouth of a prophet or His own mouth, He is the perfect expression of God, and God's will.
JLB

The word used to translate "LOGOS" in John 1:1 is "Word." It is an unfortunate situation that we do not have an adequate word in English to express the meaning of the word, "Logos."

From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Logos, ( Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. Though the concept defined by the term logos is found in Greek, Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems, it became particularly significant in Christian writings and doctrines to describe or define the role of Jesus Christ as the principle of God active in the creation and the continuous structuring of the cosmos and in revealing the divine plan of salvation to man. It thus underlies the basic Christian doctrine of the preexistence of Jesus.

For the complete article see: http://www.britannica.com/topic/logos

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Hebrew. However, since we don't know what Hebrew words he spoke in John 8:58, we can only go by what we have in Greek. If his words were faithfully rendered in Greek and he was trying to claim that he was the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, then, IMO, the Greek should read "ho on", as in the LXX, not "ego eimi".

The LXX rendering of Ex 3:14 (And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:...) is, "καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

The words "ego ami" are properly translated "I AM" and the words "ho on" are literally translated "the being." WHen Jesus used the words "ego ami" to refer to himself, he was understood by the Jews to be saying that He was God as demonstrated by th eJews taking up stones to throw at Him because He had said He was God.

So the words "ego ami" are most certainly "faithfully rendered". (Unless, of course, you have a basis to declare yourself capable of a better rendering than the apostle John.)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Hebrew. However, since we don't know what Hebrew words he spoke in John 8:58, we can only go by what we have in Greek. If his words were faithfully rendered in Greek and he was trying to claim that he was the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, then, IMO, the Greek should read "ho on", as in the LXX, not "ego eimi".

The LXX rendering of Ex 3:14 (And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:...) is, "καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

The words "ego ami" are properly translated "I AM" and the words "ho on" are literally translated "the being." When Jesus used the words "ego ami" to refer to himself, he was understood by the Jews to be saying that He was God as demonstrated by the Jews taking up stones to throw at Him because He had said He was God.

So the words "ego ami" are most certainly "faithfully rendered". The Jews most assuredly understood Jesus to be referring to himself using God's self descriptive answer to Moses, "I am the being"


iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59

Are we to believe these Jews misunderstood the language Jesus spoke?

His words were so clear that the didn't ask Him again, as to what He said or meant, they just picked up stones to stone Him to death for claiming He was God, YHWH, the I AM that declared His name to Moses from the burning bush.

I offer the following to explain the Jews misunderstanding of Yeshua and why they attempted to stone him.

An interesting account occurs in Jn.18 when the Jews came to arrest Yeshua in the Garden of Gethsemane. When the chief priests and Pharisees said they were seeking Yeshua of Nazareth, Yeshua said to them, "Ego eimi." They did not stone him. Instead, they fell backward to the ground. It is not made clear why they fell to the ground, but what followed will make it clear that Yeshua was not claiming to be the "I AM" in John 18.

After Yeshua's arrest, the Jews took him to Annas first (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Mt.26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Yeshua to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn't find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn't bear false witness about what Yeshua said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days. Where were all those witnesses from Jn.8:58?

The point about Mt.26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Yeshua say "Ego eimi." They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn't. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn't. Why not? Because it wasn't blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Yeshua of Nazareth.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Yeshua;

1) accused the Pharisees of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua's words leading
them to believe;

1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
2) Yeshua had a devil (vs.52).
3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

I believe Yeshua's words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn't restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, "ego eimi," but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

Here's what I do know for sure. Those who practice the religion of Judaism, don't believe Jesus is Lord, as they picked up stones to stone Him.

Has that changed over the years?

Do those who practice Judaism, believe Jesus is the Lord, or do they believe He is just a man?

Do I detect a bit of boasting against the branches? Keep in mind that Yahweh has temporarily blinded Israel to seeing who Yeshua is. The time will come when the blindness will be lifted and they will receive Yeshua as their Lord and as Yahweh's Messiah.

 

[Jim Parker]

I offer the following to explain the Jews misunderstanding of Yeshua and why they attempted to stone him.

An interesting account occurs in Jn.18 when the Jews came to arrest Yeshua in the Garden of Gethsemane. When the chief priests and Pharisees said they were seeking Yeshua of Nazareth, Yeshua said to them, "Ego eimi." They did not stone him. Instead, they fell backward to the ground. It is not made clear why they fell to the ground, but what followed will make it clear that Yeshua was not claiming to be the "I AM" in John 18.

The reason they fell backward is quite simple. It was their encounter with the name of God. They could not stand in His presence. If you have experienced the manifest presence of God then you would know that standing is from difficult to impossible.

After Yeshua's arrest,

You mean after JESUS' arrest, right? Since we are using English translations of the Bible and the English language to communicate, it would be a matter of consistency to use the English form of His name which is "Jesus."

The Jews considered it improper to use the name of God. So, when Jesus said "ego ami" the Jews would have known that the rest of the sentence was "ho on" and that Jesus did not say the rest because it was improper to do so.

It's really quite simple in spite of the complication you insert in your attempt to make it appear to support your notions about the names of God by which you distinguish yourself. But, I'm sure you're having fun with it! So enjoy!

Jesus, the incarnate Logos, is God. θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (John 1:1)

Try to live with that.

iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

The LXX rendering of Ex 3:14 (And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:...) is, "καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

The words "ego ami" are properly translated "I AM" and the words "ho on" are literally translated "the being." WHen Jesus used the words "ego ami" to refer to himself, he was understood by the Jews to be saying that He was God as demonstrated by th eJews taking up stones to throw at Him because He had said He was God.

So the words "ego ami" are most certainly "faithfully rendered". (Unless, of course, you have a basis to declare yourself capable of a better rendering than the apostle John.)

iakov the fool

Yes, in the phrase ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν , ἐγώ εἰμι is translated "I AM", but that is not the phrase in question. It is the second use of ὁ ὤν that matters.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
"καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς​

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, in the phrase ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν , ἐγώ εἰμι is translated "I AM", but that is not the phrase in question. It is the second use of ὁ ὤν that matters.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
"καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς​

The Jews would have known exactly what the rest of the phrase is.

You have no argument.


iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

The reason they fell backward is quite simple. It was their encounter with the name of God. They could not stand in His presence. If you have experienced the manifest presence of God then you would know that standing is from difficult to impossible.

How come those Jews did not seek to stone him? How come the Jews in John 8:58 did not fall backwards?

You mean after JESUS' arrest, right? Since we are using English translations of the Bible and the English language to communicate, it would be a matter of consistency to use the English form of His name which is "Jesus."

"Jesus" is not English. It is a conglomeration of Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English (Yeshua-Iesous-Iesus-Jesus).

The Jews considered it improper to use the name of God. So, when Jesus said "ego ami" the Jews would have known that the rest of the sentence was "ho on" and that Jesus did not say the rest because it was improper to do so.

So when the blind man in John 9:9 said, "ego eimi", why didn't they stone him for claiming to be the "I AM"?

 

[JLB]

I believe Yeshua's words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn't restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, "ego eimi," but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

Ok, so we have your opinion vs. what the scriptures reveal to us.


Your opinion about some Greek phrase "ego eimi," that you "suppose" Jesus used.

Your opinion about some "culmination" of some "other" things the Jews were upset about, and not the fact that Jesus said before Abraham was I AM. [ this conversation was with those Jews who believed in Him.]

Your opinion that what Jesus was "really" inferring was He was greater than their beloved Abraham, all the while suggesting to us that Jesus had no pre-existence, but existed only in the mind of God.


The truth is, Jesus wasn't addressing the Pharisee's that you claim had this "built up" animosity that just came to a boiling point, in which they had just had enough.

Jesus wasn't even addressing them. He was addressing the Jews who had just believed in Him.

Here is what the scriptures reveal to us, about The Lord Jesus' conversation with the Jews.

29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, John 8:29-31


56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


Verse 56 - Jesus stated that He existed before Abraham, and that Abraham knew Him.
Verse 57 - The Jews denied this was possible because of His age.
Verse 58 - Jesus states again that He existed before Abraham, and invoked the Name of YHWH, the self existent One as His own.
Verse 59 - The Jews reaction to Jesus claiming the He was YHWH, was to pick up stones without hesitation and stone Him to death for blasphemy.


This conversation was not with the Pharisee's that came to get Him in the Garden or the Pharisee's that He had embarrassed so many times before, but this conversation was with those Jews who believed in Him.


So your whole "theory" about the phrase Jesus used "I AM", for which they picked up stones to stone Him, being a culmination of many things over time, is 100% completely and totally just made up by you as a desperate attempt to falsely prove that Jesus Christ was just a man and no more.



Jesus is Lord, YHWH, the Savior of all Mankind.


He is the great I AM!



JLB