Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[Cygnus]

Do you agree with this scripture that says: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good...?

Did you not read and understand post 755? Why do you continue to violate simple hermeneutics?

 

[JLB]

Did you not read and understand post 755? Why do you continue to violate simple hermeneutics?

Do you believe this scripture from Jesus?

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

JLB

 

[JLB]

I tend to agree with what Gills said. I've been posting commentaries to show you that when you take one sentance from a verse and post it to prove your theology....you run into problems real quick as you leave the original context behind. You have done this on numerous post and should cease.

• Does a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branchthat bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Do you believe this scripture from Jesus?

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

JLB

Let me repeat what I have told you before.....YES I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS JESUS' WORDS.......What I don't believe is your spin you put on it when you rip the verse out of context.

But, lets change it up a bit.....Just how much "good" does one need to do? One act a day? 20 acts a week? 1000 acts of goodness a month? HOW MUCH JLB? Please present scripture to support your answer.

 

[JLB]

Let me repeat what I have told you before.....YES I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS JESUS' WORDS.......What I don't believe is your spin you put on it when you rip the verse out of context.

But, lets change it up a bit.....Just how much "good" does one need to do? One act a day? 20 acts a week? 1000 acts of goodness a month? HOW MUCH JLB? Please present scripture to support your answer.

It's Yes or No?

• Does a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branchthat bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

You will have to answer my questions, that you have ignored no, for the last 3 Days.


Jesus says that if the branch that becomes severed from the vine, will wither, and is cast into the fired and burned.

• Do you believe a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branchthat bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

2.] Do you agree with this scripture that says: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good...?


JLB

If a man abide not in me,.... Christ does not say, "if ye abide not in me"; he would not suppose this of his true disciples; Judas now being removed, to whom he may have some respect in this verse; though it may be applied to anyone who has made a profession of Christ, and denies the truths of the Gospel, neglects the ordinances of it, or walks unworthy of his profession: of whom the following things may be truly said, he is cast forth as a branch; that is unfruitful, and is therefore taken away from the vine, and cast forth out of the vineyard. This signifies the ejection of worthless and fruitless professors out of the churches; for such who are either unsound in their principles, or are remiss and negligent in their attendance on the worship of God, with the church, or are loose and vain in their lives and conversations, are to be removed from communion with the people of God.
And is withered. Some versions, as the Arabic, Syriac, and Persic, read this as an epithet of the word "branch", thus; "the branch that is withered"; expressing the condition the branch is in before it is cast forth out of the vineyard, and the reason of its being cast forth: but others read it as a new and distinct predicate of the branch, showing the case it is in, immediately upon its being cast forth: it may be cut off, and cast out with its leaves upon it, though without fruit; but as soon as ever it is ejected, it withers away. So mere external professors of religion, when they are cast out, of the communion of the church, presently the leaf of profession, which once seemed green, decays, loses its verdure, and that seeming fruit which grew upon them shrinks to nothing, and they become "trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit", Jde 1:12, their show of life, zeal, religion, and holiness, disappears, and all their external gifts, light, knowledge, and understanding, even in a speculative way, vanish: and men gather them; or, as some copies have it, "it", which best agrees with the word "branch". This was a common thing, when branches were thrown out of a vineyard, for men to come and gather them up for an use hereafter mentioned. So when unworthy members are put out of a church of Christ, the men of the world gather them into their society: or they are taken into the congregations of false teachers, who being sensual, and without the Spirit, separate themselves; or it may be read impersonally, "they are gathered", or "it is gathered": so wicked men, and Christless professors, will be gathered by the angels at the last day, and severed by them from the righteous, whom they will place at Christ's left hand to receive their awful doom: and cast them, or "it", into the fire, and they are burned, or "it is burned"; for nothing else is such a branch good for; see Ezekiel 15:2. This may respect either the gnawings of conscience, that distress of mind, if not despair, that fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which attend apostates in this life; or their being cast into the everlasting burnings of hell fire by angels at the last day, as will be the case of every unfruitful tree, of the chaff and tares.

Gills

 

[JLB]

If a man abide not in me,.... Christ does not say, "if ye abide not in me"; he would not suppose this of his true disciples; Judas now being removed, to whom he may have some respect in this verse; though it may be applied to anyone who has made a profession of Christ, and denies the truths of the Gospel, neglects the ordinances of it, or walks unworthy of his profession: of whom the following things may be truly said, he is cast forth as a branch; that is unfruitful, and is therefore taken away from the vine, and cast forth out of the vineyard. This signifies the ejection of worthless and fruitless professors out of the churches; for such who are either unsound in their principles, or are remiss and negligent in their attendance on the worship of God, with the church, or are loose and vain in their lives and conversations, are to be removed from communion with the people of God.
And is withered. Some versions, as the Arabic, Syriac, and Persic, read this as an epithet of the word "branch", thus; "the branch that is withered"; expressing the condition the branch is in before it is cast forth out of the vineyard, and the reason of its being cast forth: but others read it as a new and distinct predicate of the branch, showing the case it is in, immediately upon its being cast forth: it may be cut off, and cast out with its leaves upon it, though without fruit; but as soon as ever it is ejected, it withers away. So mere external professors of religion, when they are cast out, of the communion of the church, presently the leaf of profession, which once seemed green, decays, loses its verdure, and that seeming fruit which grew upon them shrinks to nothing, and they become "trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit", Jde 1:12, their show of life, zeal, religion, and holiness, disappears, and all their external gifts, light, knowledge, and understanding, even in a speculative way, vanish: and men gather them; or, as some copies have it, "it", which best agrees with the word "branch". This was a common thing, when branches were thrown out of a vineyard, for men to come and gather them up for an use hereafter mentioned. So when unworthy members are put out of a church of Christ, the men of the world gather them into their society: or they are taken into the congregations of false teachers, who being sensual, and without the Spirit, separate themselves; or it may be read impersonally, "they are gathered", or "it is gathered": so wicked men, and Christless professors, will be gathered by the angels at the last day, and severed by them from the righteous, whom they will place at Christ's left hand to receive their awful doom: and cast them, or "it", into the fire, and they are burned, or "it is burned"; for nothing else is such a branch good for; see Ezekiel 15:2. This may respect either the gnawings of conscience, that distress of mind, if not despair, that fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which attend apostates in this life; or their being cast into the everlasting burnings of hell fire by angels at the last day, as will be the case of every unfruitful tree, of the chaff and tares.

Gills

It's Yes or No?

• Does a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branchthat bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

It's Yes or No?

• Does a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branchthat bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6



JLB

When I compare the verse against your spin I am forced to answer NO. When I aplly the verse correctly then it takes on a different form of YES.
Until you have demonstrated proper hermenuitics and present the verse in proper context I will not respond to you about this verse anymore.

 

[Nathan]

But there IS more than "that". Jesus SAID recipients of eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

I know you keep saying this, but Jesus did not SAY "recipients of eternal life will never perish" in John 10:28.

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus was speaking of those who He had just spoken of before and we should not take the verse out of the whole conversation that was going on. Therefore, there is nothing more that should be added than those who believe have eternal life, and those who do not believe do not have eternal life. It really is that simple.

I prefer how the Bible defines a work: effort that creates a debt, such as a wage for work done. Rom 4:4,5 -
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

It is the biblical definition that matters, not our personal opinions.

The Bible defines "work" as something that is done before something is given to them.

Exo 23:12
“Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.

We know the children of Israel were severely punished when they broke this commandment. As we can see, from God's definition of work, it was ANYTHING done by the person in order to receive something for themselves.

Faith is not a work of ourselves, it is a work of God done in us. We believe because He makes us alive in Christ and we can believe. Until we are made alive in Christ, we cannot believe. Therefore, our belief follows God's work of salvation - nullifying it as a work done by us before salvation.

1Pe 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

This question again? I've already answered this and showed proof from the Bible. Salvation is by grace, through faith. Eph 2:8.

There MUST be faith BEFORE there will be salvation. Paul's answer to the jailer's question also shows that believing is BEFORE being saved. Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe (aorist tense) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be (future tense) saved—you and your household.”

Faith is the avenue in which we know of salvation. God gives us faith so that we can know His salvation. Its not a before/after thing, its a through thing. Salvation is through faith - no faith, no salvation.

1Pe 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Of course he brought it before anyone believed. But He only saves those who believe.

Want proof? Sure. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

The wording is clear: God is pleased to save those who believe.

Your correct. He does only save those who believe. Without faith, we will not be saved. As the passage above(1 Peter 1) states, the outcome of our faith is the salvation of our souls. This will happen at the revelation of Jesus Christ. It's all right there in that passage - no need to add any words to it, or take any words away from it. Simple - Straightforward.

And, what does this passage have to do with the order of believing and salvation? Or the notion that salvation can be lost? Since those are the issues being discussed.

Ephesians 1 gives us the same description of salvation as Peter does, just in different words. So the passage in Ephesians 1 has everything to do with faith and salvation. Here are the key points:

He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world(that means before you believed)
He predestined us for adoption as sons(which is accomplished through being united with Christ)
He lavished on us redemption of Christs blood(which is done by grace, not through anything we do)
He made it known to us that this is what He had done(which He did before we believed)

We either believe He has done this for us, which is called faith - or we deny that He has done this, which would be anything other than faith. You cannot believe what He has done for you without faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

You will have to answer my questions, that you have ignored no, for the last 3 Days.

I've already made clear no more answers until my question regarding what "doing good" means to you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I know you keep saying this, but Jesus did not SAY "recipients of eternal life will never perish" in John 10:28.

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

What Jesus actually said was "I give them eternal life". That FACT means those He gave eternal life ARE recipients. So He in FACT DID indicate that recipients of eternal life will never perish. I think you're just playing word games.

Jesus was speaking of those who He had just spoken of before and we should not take the verse out of the whole conversation that was going on.

There is nothing in the immediate context that changes the FACT that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Therefore, there is nothing more that should be added than those who believe have eternal life, and those who do not believe do not have eternal life. It really is that simple.

He said nothing about believing in either v.27 or v.28. That was covered in many previous verses in John's gospel.

The Bible defines "work" as something that is done before something is given to them.

Exo 23:12
“Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.

Why would reverting back to the Mosaic Law have any relevance to salvation? It doesn't. In fact, the Law was given as a tutor to lead us to Christ. Meaning, faith in Christ.

Please find verses that are relevant to the discussion. I provided Rom 4:4,5 and explained them. If there is disagreement, please provide a rational rebuttal of what I posted.

Your correct. He does only save those who believe. Without faith, we will not be saved. As the passage above(1 Peter 1) states, the outcome of our faith is the salvation of our souls. This will happen at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said that those who believe presently HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. So Jesus disagrees with your statement.

 

[JLB]

When I compare the verse against your spin I am forced to answer NO. When I aplly the verse correctly then it takes on a different form of YES.
Until you have demonstrated proper hermenuitics and present the verse in proper context I will not respond to you about this verse anymore.

No is correct.

A branch that is throw into the fire and burned, no longer has the life from the vine it once had, when it was connected to the vine.

Likewise those who are connected to Him, and remain in Him, have the Life that comes from Him.

If however, someone who is "in Him", becomes disconnected from Him, then they no longer have the Life that they once had, when connected to Him.

Remaining "in Him" is the key to have having His Life, in us.

• In Him = Eternal Life
• Severed from Him = No eternal life; withered... cast into the fire and burned.

I hope this simple illustration from the Lord helps you to understand how important it is to remain "in Him".





JLB

 

[JLB]

I've already made clear no more answers until my question regarding what "doing good" means to you.

You will have to answer my questions, that you have ignored no, for the last 3 Days.

Yes or No

• Do you believe a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branchthat bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


JLB

 

[JLB]

I've already made clear no more answers until my question regarding what "doing good" means to you.

Just so you know it was answered, and you still keep trolling me.

This is from post 751, where I answered your question:



No one can do good without the Spirit of God within them, "leading them in the way of righteousness".

It is by the Spirit, we "put to death the deeds of the flesh", so that we are led by His Spirit.

• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, theseare sons of God. Romans 8:12-14


Those who have His divine nature, empowered by the Spirit, and yet practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


It is up to us, empowered by the Spirit, to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

This is a daily work; the work of believing.

The work of Grace.


Taking up our cross daily.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

What Jesus actually said was "I give them eternal life". That FACT means those He gave eternal life ARE recipients. So He in FACT DID indicate that recipients of eternal life will never perish. I think you're just playing word games.

Now we are getting somewhere. Yes, He did 'indicate' that those who receive eternal life will never perish. However, that is our interpretation of the passage - not exactly what He said. What He said was "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The point is, He is talking about His sheep - no one else in this passage. We should let the passage say what it says.

Why would reverting back to the Mosaic Law have any relevance to salvation? It doesn't. In fact, the Law was given as a tutor to lead us to Christ. Meaning, faith in Christ.

Please find verses that are relevant to the discussion. I provided Rom 4:4,5 and explained them. If there is disagreement, please provide a rational rebuttal of what I posted.

If you went back in our conversation, you would see that we were talking about "work", and how the Bible defines it. I was showing you that God defines "work" as anything someone does in order to be doing something for themselves. They were not allowed to do any "work" on the Sabbath. They couldn't even have a fire!

Exo 35:3
You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.

God defines "work" as anything you do in order to benefit you. So, if you say that "believing" is what God waits for you to do before He gives you salvation, then you have done something to benefit you(worked) for your salvation.

Jesus said that those who believe presently HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. So Jesus disagrees with your statement.

You did not address the passage in 1 Peter 1. It was not my statements, it was Peter's statements. I'll post it again so you can see.

1Pe 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Do you think that Peter is contradicting Jesus when he states the outcome of our faith is the salvation of our souls?

 

[reba]

Not because of content but because of the rudeness to one another ... Staff is once again discussing if all sides of OSAS topics should be restricted... please fight the battles wiht out going personal.. i will post some personal quips ...

Just so you know it was answered, and you still keep trolling me.

You will have to answer my questions, that you have ignored no, for the last 3 Days.

I think you're just playing word games.

I've already made clear no more answers until my question regarding what "doing good" means to you.

When I compare the verse against your spin

What I don't believe is your spin you put on it when you rip the verse out of context.

Did you not read and understand post 755? Why do you continue to violate simple hermeneutics?

Do you believe this scripture from Jesus?


These quips are only from page 39.. simply going up the page from here... these type of statements are why these threads get closed.. and why come to the consideration of closing the TOPIC ... if i missed one of yours or theirs too bad... Drop the personal battles.. it reads childish and rude .. This site is open to the public.. Take the time to consider what they read and how they read what we post . reba

closing this thread , for a while , giving posters sometime to reflect ...

do not reply to this post in this thread