John 15 and the True Vine

[atpollard]

Following your mangled logic concerning the METAPHOR (NOT parable) of John 15, since Jesus was addressing a Jewish audience, then when He said "God so loved the world" He must have only been speaking of the JEWISH world and the "whoever believes" would only apply to Jews.

But, as I said, your logic is seriously mangled.

Since you insist on "correcting" me over and over on this, I feel obliged to respond to your erroneous correction.

A "metaphor" is 'a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.' So the vine and the branches are indeed a metaphor.

A "parable" is 'a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, which illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. It differs from a fable in that fables employ animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature as characters, whereas parables have human characters. A parable is a type of analogy.' ("Didactic" means 'intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.')

God is the vine dresser who prunes and cuts and burns the branches in the story told by Jesus. God is not an animal, plant, inanimate object or force of nature, so it is not a fable. God is more like a 'human character' making it a parable.
Is it "sussinct"? Yes
Is it "didactic"? Yes, it definitely is intended to teach a moral lesson as its primary motive.
Is it a story in prose which illustrates one or more instructive lesson? Yes.

The metaphor of the vine is part of a parable told by Jesus about God pruning, cutting and burning branches. Therefore, IT IS A PARABLE. I would appreciate it if you would not continue to correct me when I am not wrong.

There is nothing 'mangled' in the fact that the Jewish Messiah was addressing a Jewish audience with the familiar Old Testament metaphor of the Vine of Israel (as multiple prophets before him had) and attempting to take the previous prophecies about the vine (which would have been familiar to the original listeners) into consideration when interpreting the metaphor and the parable containing it is both prudent and appropriate.


The 'mangled logic' of comment 2 was an attempt to point out the flaw in the over literal application of a single word in the verse quoted. Applying the same level of hyper-literalism to the rest of the parable would indicate that only men can loose their salvation. It was a rejection of the flawed logic being presented as 'proof' that the verse applied to absolutely, literally anyone (since that same criteria requires that absolutely, literally only men can be cut off).

 

[atpollard]

Anyone would include anyone who is connected in Him, whether man or woman.

JLB

So why is 'anyone' hyper-literal and 'man' really intended to be generic 'man or woman'?
How do we know that 'anyone' doesn't mean any generic Jew and 'man' means hyper-literal men only?

What criteria are you using to pick and choose what words to interpret as literal and general in the parable?

 

[Jim Parker]

A "metaphor" is 'a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.' So the vine and the branches are indeed a metaphor.

As I explained to you before, it is an extended metaphor. It is a common literary device.
Look it up.
A parable is a story. Jesus did not tell a story when he taught using the extended metaphor of the vine.

There is nothing 'mangled' in the fact that the Jewish Messiah was addressing a Jewish audience with the familiar Old Testament metaphor of the Vine of Israel (as multiple prophets before him had) and attempting to take the previous prophecies about the vine (which would have been familiar to the original listeners) into consideration when interpreting the metaphor and the parable containing it is both prudent and appropriate.

What is mangled logic is that it was NOT instruction for the Gentiles as you indicate in your OP.
" However, these verses are NOT written as a lesson and a warning on gentiles falling away after salvation. That is simply not the audience, the context or the purpose. It is about the casting off of the last of the old, unfaithful Israel and the pruning of the faithful Israel to make them more fruitful. "
It John 15 is not for Gentiles the nothing Jesus said was for Gentiles.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus was speaking to the Church leadership in John 15:1-6
Those "in Christ" are neither Jew nor Gentile.
JLB

Remind me again, how many gentile Church leaders were there following Jesus at this point in his ministry?

Matthew 10:5 Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions: “Don't go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans,"
Matthew 15:26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs."
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said, “Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel.
Acts 10:45 The Jewish believers[fn] who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too.
Acts 11:15-18 “As I began to speak,” Peter continued, “the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as he fell on us at the beginning. Then I thought of the Lord’s words when he said, ‘John baptized with[fn]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ And since God gave these Gentiles the same gift he gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in God’s way?” When the others heard this, they stopped objecting and began praising God. They said, “We can see that God has also given the Gentiles the privilege of repenting of their sins and receiving eternal life.”

The only point that I would call your attention to is that the ministry of the Gospel Message was delivered first to the Jews and only in Acts do we see it spread to the Gentiles. This does not mean that the Gospels are not for Gentiles, but it does mean that they WERE spoken to a Jewish audience familiar with the Old Testament and we do a disservice if we treat the gospels as if they were spoken in English to a modern audience. They knew the verses presented in the OP better than I ever will. They were not ignorant of the historic Biblical context of Jesus metaphor of the vine and his parable of the vine dresser.

Those in Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile, precisely because God cut away the dead branches from the cursed vine of the old Israel and pruned the healthy branches of the vine of Israel that were connected to the True Vine (which is EXACTLY what happens in the gospels, many hear, some believe and become disciples, some reject Christ and go away) ... then in Acts, the wild branches are grafted into the True Vine. Don't you see that what Jesus said is exactly what happened.

 

[JLB]

So why is 'anyone' hyper-literal and 'man' really intended to be generic 'man or woman'?
How do we know that 'anyone' doesn't mean any generic Jew and 'man' means hyper-literal men only?

What criteria are you using to pick and choose what words to interpret as literal and general in the parable?

Hyper literal??

That's funny!!!


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw theminto the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Please show me where the word "man" appears in these verses?


JLB

 

[atpollard]

What is mangled logic is that it was NOT instruction for the Gentiles as you indicate in your OP.
" However, these verses are NOT written as a lesson and a warning on gentiles falling away after salvation. That is simply not the audience, the context or the purpose. It is about the casting off of the last of the old, unfaithful Israel and the pruning of the faithful Israel to make them more fruitful. "
If John 15 is not for Gentiles then nothing Jesus said was for Gentiles.

Prove it with scripture.
This is just your opinion.
I showed where the OT had already provided examples of Israel as a vine (the Apostles would have known that).

 

[JLB]

Remind me again, how many gentile Church leaders were there following Jesus at this point in his ministry?

Why would anyone think a person would have to be a Gentile to be an Apostle, and leader in the Church?


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Hyper literal??

That's funny!!!


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw theminto the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Please show me where the word "man" appears in these verses?


JLB

You win ... "HE".
Care to answer the question, or are you just here to act like a jerk?

 

[JLB]

You win ... "HE".
Care to answer the question, or are you just here to act like a jerk?

Man appears in verse 6.

I was hoping you would point this out, and do a study of that word, in which you would come to the conclusion that it is a term that coincides with "anyone'.


I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6 KJV


6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6 NKJV

Anyone, man - Strong's G5100 - tis

1. 
   
   
   • a certain, a certain one
   • some, some time, a while

The KJV translates Strong's G5100 in the following manner: certain (104x), some (73x), any man (55x), any (37x), one (34x), man (34x), anything (24x), a (9x), certain man (7x), something (6x), somewhat (6x), ought (5x), some man (4x), certain thing (2x), nothing (with G3756) (2x), divers (2x), he (2x), thing (1x), another (2x), not translated (17x), miscellaneous (22x).



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I showed where the OT had already provided examples of Israel as a vine (the Apostles would have known that).

True enough.
But didn't Jesus plainly say He is the vine being spoken about?

" 1“I am the true vine..." (John 15:1 NASB)

The vine and the branches being another way of speaking of the body of Christ and it's members--arms, legs, etc.

In a similar analogy, Paul talks very clearly about gentiles being branches along side of the Jews in the olive tree. That alone convinces me the analogy of vine and tree is speaking about Jew and gentile alike. Each standing by faith, and being removed out of the vine/tree because of unbelief.

 

[Anto9us]

are we talkin' GRAPEVINES or OLIVE VINES ??

 

[Anto9us]

Isaiah 5's song of the vineyard is about GRAPES.

Paul's metaphor about natural and wild branches is about OLIVE BRANCHES.

There are olive trees - with their own branches - as far as I know.

Grapes grow on a VINE that uses a different tree - I don't think there are any GRAPE TREES

 

[Anto9us]

I see the wheat and tare parable has been addressed in this thread as well
so that's THREE different plants being discussed all in one thread

maybe we need some RANCH DRESSING for this SALAD

 

[chessman]

men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6 KJV

Since your view is this fire is Hell's fire, is it also your view (for consistency) that men cast the lost into Hell?

 

[JLB]

Since your view is this fire is Hell's fire, is it also your view (for consistency) that men cast the lost into Hell?

Those who gather up and cast into hell are the angels.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42




JLB

 

[JLB]

I see the wheat and tare parable has been addressed in this thread as well
so that's THREE different plants being discussed all in one thread

maybe we need some RANCH DRESSING for this SALAD

All refer to people.


JLB

 

[chessman]

is it also your view (for consistency) that men cast the lost into Hell?

Those who gather up and cast into hell and the angels.

Matt 13:42-43 doesn't say men cast lost people into Hell. It's a direct contradiction of Scripture to think men are able to cast the lost into Hell's fire:

Luke 12:4-5 (NKJV) “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!​

Who's Him, given your view (men)? Men don't have the power to cast the lost into Hell's fire.

Matthew 10:28 (NKJV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV) For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;​

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6 KJV

Nope, this fire is not Hell's fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see the wheat and tare parable has been addressed in this thread as well
so that's THREE different plants being discussed all in one thread

maybe we need some RANCH DRESSING for this SALAD

There is also the metaphor of the building of God.

Just as unfruitful branches and fields will in the end be burned, parts of the building of God will also be burned. At the Judgment, they will be shown to be material in the building of God on this present earth that are not of the quality that can withstand fire.

It's a metaphor: Just as it is that only imperishable things can pass through fire (gold, silver, precious stones), so only the imperishable saved--like precious gems--will survive the coming Judgment. While those who prove to be the perishable unsaved (wood, hay, and straw) will be burned up. Because of who they are, they will be burned up.

 

[JLB]

Matt 13:42-43 doesn't say men cast lost people into Hell.

It sure doesn't, which is the point I just made.

It is angels who gather them up and throw them into the fire.

Those who gather up and cast into hell are the angels.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42

It's a direct contradiction of Scripture to think men are able to cast the lost into Hell's fire:

What contradiction?

I never said men throw people into hell.

JLB

 

[chessman]

What contradiction?

I never said men throw people into hell.

You said that you think "the fire" in John 15 is Hell's fire. Yet John 15 says it is men that cast branches into this fire.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Yet it's men that cast the branches into the fire in John 15:

John 15:6 (KJV) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

Yet men are not able to cast the lost into Hell's fire.

Luke 12:5 (KJV) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.​

Your idea that the fire in John 15:6 is Hell's fire contradicts Jesus' teaching that Men are not able to cast the lost into Hell. That's the contradiction.