John 15 and the True Vine

[dirtfarmer]

Following your mangled logic concerning the METAPHOR (NOT parable) of John 15, since Jesus was addressing a Jewish audience, then when He said "God so loved the world" He must have only been speaking of the JEWISH world and the "whoever believes" would only apply to Jews.

But, as I said, your logic is seriously mangled.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Is John 3:15 a METAPHOR (NOT parable)?

 

[JLB]

You said that you think "the fire" in John 15 is Hell's fire. Yet John 15 says it is men that cast branches into this fire.

I don't "think" the fire represents hell fire, I know it represents hell fire.

Yet John 15 says it is men that cast branches into this fire

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


You don't believe that for one minute, because you would have posted the verse from John 15 that states this.

Since you didn't there is no need to discuss it.

It is angels who gather them up and throw them into the fire.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42



JLB

 

[JLB]

Is John 3:15 a METAPHOR (NOT parable)?

It's not a parable.

... that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:15


JLB

 

[chessman]

I said:

it's men that cast the branches into the fire in John 15:

John 15:6 (KJV) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

You don't believe that for one minute, because you would have posted the verse from John 15 that states this.

Yes, I do believe it. It's what Jesus says. Thud, I believe it. And I did post it. I even bolded it for you. I highlighted it red for you this time, though. That way, maybe you will see your mistake this time and not make false claims about what I believe or that I didn't post the verse.

The facts are:

1. Jesus said men cast the branches into "the fire" of John 15:6. [read it re-posted for the third time slowly and savor the fact that JESUS said men do the gathering and casting into this fire.]

2. Jesus said men don't have the power to cast the lost into Hell's fire.

Poof, "the fire" in John 15:6 is not Hell's fire, else Jesus contradicts Himself.

Matthew 10:28 (NKJV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5 (KJV) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.

 

[JLB]

Yes, I do believe it. It's what Jesus says. Thud, I believe it. And I did post it. I even bolded it for you.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Men gather withered branches, which represent angels gathering up people and throwing them into the fire.

The word for men in the Greek, does not appear in the original text, as represented by the KJV.


If G3362 G0 a man G5100 abide G3306 not G3362 in G1722 me, G1698he is cast G906 forth G1854 as G5613 a branch, G2814 and G2532 is withered; G3583 and G2532 men gather G4863 them, G846 and G2532 cast G906 them into G1519 the fire, G4442 and G2532they are burned. G2545

it is easily read as ... and is withered, and are gathered and cast into the fire.


Even the word man in the beginning of verse 6 doesn't refer specifically to a male human, but rather it refers to anyone.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Analogies and metaphors are designed to help those with humble and open and teachable hearts see and understand that which is unseen. For example, the Holy Spirit being like wind, and how the wind though unseen, affects things and moves around without notice until it does affect something.

In that vein of understanding, I find it amazing that people think that the dead branches that have been cut off from the trees and vines on one's property, that are then gathered up and dragged over to the burn pile for burning when the pile gets big enough, that those branches are still somehow connected to the tree, and, worse yet, get to keep the life of the tree they came from.

Branches that don't bring to fruition the life of the tree or vine they are connected to don't get to keep that life in them. This message is delivered in many places in the gospels by Jesus. Thinking that one does get to keep that which Christ entrusted to you, even though you do nothing with it and bring no increase to it, is the great deceit presently gripping the Protestant Church. I'm convinced that it's the end times deceit that destroys the visible church before the appearing of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see, the falling away prophesied before the appearing of the anti christ is the denying of Christ.

"3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come (the Day of the Lord) unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 NASB bold and underline mine)

So we see this spirit of anti christ, this spirit of apostasy, is already in the world in a denying of the Father and the Son:

22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22-23 NASB bold)

And John goes on to say for US, those who believe, to not deny the Father and the Son, but to continue to abide in the Son and the Father by abiding in what we heard from the beginning:

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:22-25 NASB)

You can not have the Son, and the Father, if you deny the Son by no longer abiding in that which you heard in the beginning. You lose the promise of eternal life if you fall away into a denial of Christ. You will be cut off from the tree/vine and set aside for burning.

How does the church deny Christ? Not necessarily in word, but in their actions:

" 1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power" (2 Timothy 3:1-4 NASB bold mine)

The church is presently in a steep decline in this denial of Christ's power in living, not in word, but in how they live. They think they can live in the Christ denying, Christ rejecting lifestyle above because they will still be saved (aka hyper/free grace doctrine). But they will be rejected by Christ on the very Day they expected to be saved by Him. This is the end times deceit presently at work in the earth that will usher in the greatest of anti christ's, the man of sin.

 

[chessman]

Men gather withered branches, which represent angels gathering up people and throwing them into the fire.

Jesus didn't mention angels in John 15. Nor did He mention Hell.

Neither word (angel or Hell) appears in the original Text of John 15. You have to add them to your thinking that "the fire" is Hell's fire.

The word for men in the Greek, does not appear in the original text,

The word for angels in the Greek does not appear in the original Text.

Nor does Jesus say that the men gathering the branches represented angels.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus didn't mention angels in John 15. Nor did He mention Hell.

Neither word (angel or Hell) appears in the original Text of John 15. You have to add them to your thinking that "the fire" is Hell's fire.


The word for angels in the Greek does not appear in the original Text.

Nor does Jesus say that the men gathering the branches represented angels.

Speaking in mysteries, metaphors, parables, etc. works two ways:
They help people see, but they also keep people from seeing (Matthew 13:10-13 NASB).
It's amazing to us who can see how others simply can not see, but God is working out his purpose in that too.

“Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matthew 13:10-13 NASB)

How does one know if they can see?
Look at your fruit.
A lack of fruit shows a lack of understanding. You are still in the dark. You have brought no increase to what God has given to you. You will lose even what you've been given and be condemned on the Day.

This is not a condemnation. It's a warning. Prepare now while you still can, people. Produce fruit in keeping with the confession you make and stop denying Christ in a denial of his power in godly living and fruitfulness. He who has ears to hear.....

 

[JLB]

Jesus didn't mention angels in John 15. Nor did He mention Hell.

Neither word (angel or Hell) appears in the original Text of John 15. You have to add them to your thinking that "the fire" is Hell's fire.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

Men gather withered branches, which represent angels gathering up people and throwing them into the fire.


It is angels who gather them up and throw them into the fire.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42


Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire, and is also associated with being good fruit, or otherwise be cast into the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into
the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.




JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Analogies and metaphors are designed to help those with humble and open and teachable hearts see and understand that which is unseen. For example, the Holy Spirit being like wind, and how the wind though unseen, affects things and moves around without notice until it does affect something.

In that vein of understanding, I find it amazing that people think that the dead branches that have been cut off from the trees and vines on one's property, that are then gathered up and dragged over to the burn pile for burning when the pile gets big enough, that those branches are still somehow connected to the tree, and, worse yet, get to keep the life of the tree they came from.

Branches that don't bring to fruition the life of the tree or vine they are connected to don't get to keep that life in them. This message is delivered in many places in the gospels by Jesus. Thinking that one does get to keep that which Christ entrusted to you, even though you do nothing with it and bring no increase to it, is the great deceit presently gripping the Protestant Church. I'm convinced that it's the end times deceit that destroys the visible church before the appearing of Christ.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

If you have an Oak tree in your yard that produces acorns, but there are some branches that have died and don't produce acorns, are those branches not oak branches, even if you prune the tree and burn them. Are not the ashes of those branches oak ashes?

 

[JLB]

Speaking in mysteries, metaphors, parables, etc. works two ways:
They help people see, but they also keep people from seeing (Matthew 13:10-13 NASB).
It's amazing to us who can see how others simply can not see, but God is working out his purpose in that too.

“Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matthew 13:10-13 NASB)

How does one know if they can see?
Look at your fruit.
A lack of fruit shows a lack of understanding. You are still in the dark. You have brought no increase to what God has given to you. You will lose even what you've been given and be condemned on the Day.

This is not a condemnation. It's a warning. Prepare now while you still can, people. Produce fruit in keeping with the confession you make and stop denying Christ in a denial of his power in godly living and fruitfulness. He who has ears to hear.....

Yes sir!

 

[chessman]

For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance;

How does one know that someone can't see the mystery of the kingdom of Heaven ???

Those that can't see these mysteries will take a passage that specifically says to those that it has been granted/given to know, more will be given and turn it into 'saying':

You will lose even what you've been given and be condemned on the Day.

Notice that the passage DOES NOT say 'you will lose what you've been given'. It says "what he has shall be taken away from him".

 

[JLB]

Are not the ashes of those branches not oak ashes?

Yes they are Oak ashes.

However, the fire being referred to here is everlasting, and the punishment is everlasting torment.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46




JLB

 

[JLB]

Those that can't see these mysteries will take a passage that specifically says to those that it has been granted/given to know, more will be given and turn it into 'saying':

Please post the scripture you are referring to, about it has been granted/given to know, more will be given.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Yes they are Oak ashes.

However, the fire being referred to here is everlasting, and the punishment is everlasting torment.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46




JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In the portion of scripture that you are referencing, Matthew 25:31- 46, in verse 31 where will "the throne of his glory be?" If Christ is to sit on the throne of David and he is according to Psalm 132:11, Psalm 89:3-4. Tell me where is "the throne of David located? Is it not in Jerusalem? Does this not speak of an earthly kingdom?

Can you supply scripture that proves to the world that Christ is king when there is no nation of Israel? If not then, was the earthly kingdom establish in 1948, when Israel became a nation again after 3000 years? It is through the fall of Israel that salvation is come unto the Gentiles, Romans 11:11. The grace of God is manifest to those that were without God in the world, Ephesians 2:11. There is no way that the destruction of the temple in 70 A. D. is the beginning of the reign of Christ on earth. According to Galatians 1:15-16 God revealed His Son to Paul that he preach Him among the Gentiles.

John 10:16 " And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Is this in reference to the Church?

 

[JLB]

In the portion of scripture that you are referencing, Matthew 25:31- 46, in verse 31 where will "the throne of his glory be?" If Christ is to sit on the throne of David and he is according to Psalm 132:11, Psalm 89:3-4. Tell me where is "the throne of David located? Is it not in Jerusalem? Does this not speak of an earthly kingdom?

It's in Jerusalem.

This is what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse, which is found in Zechariah.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:1-9

 

[dirtfarmer]

It's in Jerusalem.

This is what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse, which is found in Zechariah.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:1-9

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Zechariah 14 is prophecy about the earthly kingdom that is to be established. As in verse 9 it is stated that: "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one LORD, and his name one"

 

[Nathan]

I've never believed someone can "loose" their faith. Anymore than a child can loose their parents, who know exactly where their child is.

However, that does not mean we cannot leave the faith, the same way children run away from home.

It is purely by choice if one decides to leave the faith, and therefore loose the ability to produce fruit. If that happens, we have been the disconnecting ones, not God.

Once a branch is cut off it in fact is no longer a branch of that tree. You can say, that was once a branch of that tree, but now it is simply a piece of dead wood. A branch of a tree is still connected to the tree.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I've never believed someone can "loose" their faith. Anymore than a child can loose their parents, who know exactly where their child is.

However, that does not mean we cannot leave the faith, the same way children run away from home.

It is purely by choice if one decides to leave the faith, and therefore loose the ability to produce fruit. If that happens, we have been the disconnecting ones, not God.

Once a branch is cut off it in fact is no longer a branch of that tree. You can say, that was once a branch of that tree, but now it is simply a piece of dead wood. A branch of a tree is still connected to the tree.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

The thing is a dead oak branch is still an Oak branch and is still related to the Oak tree. The thing that has been broken after the branch is "broken off" is not relationship but fellowship and that is what is broken when a believer is over-taken by a fault. There is still relationship, as the branch is still a Oak branch; it just doesn't receive nourishment from the tree. We still have a relationship with the Father as an heir and joint-heir with Christ, we just don't have fellowship until we confess to the Father.

When a child runs away from home they still have parent child relationship. The child's DNA doesn't change, but the ability to fellowship does because they are at different locations.