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Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
This doesn't say Judas did not believe, but that Judas betrayed Him.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:64-71
Judas was one of the twelve, and followed Jesus for 3 1/2 years.
The scripture says that "we" have come to believe that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
If Judas didn't believe, throughout 3 1/2 years that these twelve walked with Him, and talked among themselves, all the rest of the disciples would have known it, having been with Judas for 3 1/2 years.
None of them had any clue it was Judas.
17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.” 19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say to Him one by one, “Is it I?” And another said, “Is it I?”
20 He answered and said to them, “It is one of the twelve, who dips with Me in the dish. 21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.” Mark 14:17-21
JLB
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So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Judas chose of his freewill, to betray Jesus.
Judas had a choice, the whole time, as he was appointed to sit on one of the twelve thrones with Christ.
God foresaw, the choice Judas made.
God did not "make Judas" choose to betray Christ.
Big Difference.
JLB
Here are the scriptures:
This doesn't say Judas did not believe, but that Judas betrayed Him.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:64-71
Judas was one of the twelve, and followed Jesus for 3 1/2 years.
The scripture says that "we" have come to believe that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
If Judas didn't believe, throughout 3 1/2 years that these twelve walked with Him, and talked among themselves, all the rest of the disciples would have known it, having been with Judas for 3 1/2 years.
None of them had any clue it was Judas.
17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.” 19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say to Him one by one, “Is it I?” And another said, “Is it I?”
20 He answered and said to them, “It is one of the twelve, who dips with Me in the dish. 21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.” Mark 14:17-21
JLB
JohnDB
Member
Are you proposing a pelagic viewpoint?
(That freewill is a myth and that our "choices" and actions are choreographed ahead of time)
Not that i am aware of... ... but i guess in part i am.. didn't know there was a name for it... . Judas did not have a choice Mary did not have a choice.. Let me try and put my thoughts down..
The birth, life and death of Christ was a plan from the beginning .. His life did not just happen... so many players were in place..
starting with Elizabeth and Zechariah the parents of John the baptist .
the jerky high priests
Cesar's tax decree
ugly king haread
Pilate his wife
The twelve
Shoot a baby donkey even played a role..
These are just touching the surface. This was not left to happenstance. IMO
We can go back and see the fore tellings of His birth
God being God can only be Godly. If a few players along the way did not have the same choice as you or i it is not our business it is God's business.. He the potter we the clay .. did Esau or Jacob have a choice...
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth
The birth, life and death of Christ was a plan from the beginning .. His life did not just happen... so many players were in place..
starting with Elizabeth and Zechariah the parents of John the baptist .
the jerky high priests
Cesar's tax decree
ugly king haread
Pilate his wife
The twelve
Shoot a baby donkey even played a role..
These are just touching the surface. This was not left to happenstance. IMO
We can go back and see the fore tellings of His birth
God being God can only be Godly. If a few players along the way did not have the same choice as you or i it is not our business it is God's business.. He the potter we the clay .. did Esau or Jacob have a choice...
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth
Somewhere along the way, Judas chose to betray Jesus [being tempted by Satan], just as Judas chose to become a trusted fried of Christ.
I just don't see how a person can do these things without engaging their will.
Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9
Why would Jesus trust someone who He wasn't committed too, who hadn't proved himself as a friend at one time?
Jesus didn't trust or commit Himself to just anybody who "believed".
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. John 2:23-25
Judas was at one time, a trusted friend, a devoted disciple, and an ordained Apostle.
And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, Mark 3:14
Somewhere along the way, he made a choice to turn away from Christ, and betray Him.
If you have a scripture that teaches us Judas had no choice to betray Jesus, but was made to betray Him, by God, then please post that scripture.
JLB
Yes.
Not that i am aware of... ... but i guess in part i am.. didn't know there was a name for it... . Judas did not have a choice Mary did not have a choice.. Let me try and put my thoughts down..
The birth, life and death of Christ was a plan from the beginning .. His life did not just happen... so many players were in place..
starting with Elizabeth and Zechariah the parents of John the baptist .
the jerky high priests
Cesar's tax decree
ugly king haread
Pilate his wife
The twelve
Shoot a baby donkey even played a role..
These are just touching the surface. This was not left to happenstance. IMO
We can go back and see the fore tellings of His birth
God being God can only be Godly. If a few players along the way did not have the same choice as you or i it is not our business it is God's business.. He the potter we the clay .. did Esau or Jacob have a choice...
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth
All had choices.
God foresaw the choices they would make before the foundation of the world.
God did not "force" them to make those choices.
JLB
JohnDB
Member
Not that i am aware of... ... but i guess in part i am.. didn't know there was a name for it... . Judas did not have a choice Mary did not have a choice.. Let me try and put my thoughts down..
The birth, life and death of Christ was a plan from the beginning .. His life did not just happen... so many players were in place..
starting with Elizabeth and Zechariah the parents of John the baptist .
the jerky high priests
Cesar's tax decree
ugly king haread
Pilate his wife
The twelve
Shoot a baby donkey even played a role..
These are just touching the surface. This was not left to happenstance. IMO
We can go back and see the fore tellings of His birth
God being God can only be Godly. If a few players along the way did not have the same choice as you or i it is not our business it is God's business.. He the potter we the clay .. did Esau or Jacob have a choice...
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth
Soooo...
God must orchestrate the future instead of simply knowing and navigating through it?
And choices?
As a young woman if you were offered the opportunity to have the Messiah as your child... would you say yes or no?
I'm advocating that God knows what choices someone would choose if placed in a particular set of circumstances.
Just like Pharaoh would make poor choices and decisions (all three of them) and that Moses would have his issues as well.
Just like 12 ordinary men...
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me? i most likely would have thought the angel was nuts..
Did John the Baptist have a choice?
Luk 1:12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb
I believe most people have a choice ...
Did John the Baptist have a choice?
Luk 1:12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb
I believe most people have a choice ...
JohnDB
Member
But if the Angel Gabriel was able to convince you somehow...(like Zechariah)...
And notice what Gabriel said to him..."Your prayers have been answered"...not "Your prayer is answered"
Elizabeth and Zachariah had been praying for a child for decades...and likely given up hope.
ezra
Member
imo he was never saved
ezra
Member
agreed
If you have a scripture that teaches us Judas had no choice to betray Jesus, but was made to betray Him, by God, then please post that scripture.
I posted the scriptures for my belief.
Here they are again.
Somewhere along the way, Judas chose to betray Jesus [being tempted by Satan], just as Judas chose to become a trusted fried of Christ.
I just don't see how a person can do these things without engaging their will.
Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9
Why would Jesus trust someone who He wasn't committed too, who hadn't proved himself as a friend at one time?
Jesus didn't trust or commit Himself to just anybody who "believed".
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. John 2:23-25
Judas was at one time, a trusted friend, a devoted disciple, and an ordained Apostle.
And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, Mark 3:14
Somewhere along the way, he made a choice to turn away from Christ, and betray Him.
JLB
ezra
Member
we should be able to see the difference peter denied Christ at the sinners fire
Mark 14:66-72
72 A second time the rooster crowed. Then Peter called to mind the word that Jesus had said to him, “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times.” And when he thought about it, { he wept.} Godly sorrow ****
{ judas hung himself }
Matthew 27: 4“I have sinned by betraying innocent blood,” he said. “What is that to us?” they replied. “You bear the responsibility.” 5 So Judas threw the silver into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the pieces of silver and said, “It is unlawful to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.”… paul wrote Godly sorrow
2 Corinthians 7:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
while granted we can only assume one way or the other. but imo this shows peter had Godly sorrow Judas had worldly sorrow . he was greedy and loved money