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ok. let me say this. what do you then and how do you tell the the lost that they are a sinner.

if you dont tell nor teach them that why jesus died on the cross for them they get this nt is only for me deal. and really dont understand the ot at all and how it all ties together.

lets be real here. if do something along the lines of robbing your money and your car are going to really not call the cops. if i say im sorry.

i dont think so.

and i corrected myself on that position but again kindly adress the laws of nations if the entire legal system is based on that poistion

ie if a christian commits murder he says im sorry and doesnt do it again he doesn to any time in the slammer

if he steals, lies etc.

with me i would ensure the law would punish him.i dont ask for mercy when i broke the law. and i did. if they came and arrested me on the charges of those crimes i wouldnt ask for leniency. but do the time.


felix, let me ask you this if the guy with the knife wants to rape your daughters(and you know what rape has done to my sister) would you then just let him?


would if he said i will kill you, take the knife willingly from him and kill yourself or attempt escape?

Well, the issue is not really about teaching the law but following it. I do agree that every Christian who wants to learn more or grow spiritually MUST know the law and understand how they all tie together in NT. Having said that, the old law is not relevant for us in NT times as it is obsolete.
 
There's just no further reason to argue Jason.
There are rules and laws. If you break them you will pay the consequences.
In a passive society as some posters subscribe to, there would be no consequences. Imagine living in that world!!
 
When one has been in a "bad guy" type life threatening situation i will believe what he/she has to say.

Those who fight with "ugly sweet" words share their own kind of poison.

Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
 
Well, the issue is not really about teaching the law but following it. I do agree that every Christian who wants to learn more or grow spiritually MUST know the law and understand how they all tie together in NT. Having said that, the old law is not relevant for us in NT times as it is obsolete.


sigh. you dont know where paul go these do you?

romans 1 and galatians 5 and all lists of things a christian ought not to do.

and i will tell you . god will was to do away with the law and go to the gentiles but let see since you would call this a sin


but yet you actually espouse this when you often say what you do

http://www.noahide.org/

the gentiles were always under this and if you doubt read the torah again.

most churches dont see that, read the laws and then take note. your position isnt common but i find it odd that god wouldnt say or tell us this is what i want.

marriage has rules, we give kids rules and now after the cross theres none?

love alone? come one people dont know proper love. paul dealt with a jew/gentile mix and the jews knew that jesus never said to sin , so paul didnt have to teach the jews not to do those things they already knew, with the greeks he did have too.
 
also jasoncran, you cannot compare the old covenant law to the law and order from government. Some law exists even today that prohibits anyone from carrying a Bible.

To the question regarding rape, nothing happens without the knowledge of God and He is in perfect control. If we are good, He will not allow any such evil to come near us.

A child around the age of 12 was raped because she was a Christian. Several years latter, it happened that the person who raped got converted to Christ and both of them got married and are missionaries telling their testimonies. The real problem is, people simply don't trust God anymore. They only trust their guns, law and order, and on their own i.e, self defense.
 
also jasoncran, you cannot compare the old covenant law to the law and order from government. Some law exists even today that prohibits anyone from carrying a Bible.

To the question regarding rape, nothing happens without the knowledge of God and He is in perfect control. If we are good, He will not allow any such evil to come near us.

A child around the age of 12 was raped because she was a Christian. Several years latter, it happened that the person who raped got converted to Christ and both of them got married and are missionaries telling their testimonies. The real problem is, people simply don't trust God anymore. They only trust their guns, law and order, and on their own i.e, self defense.

really? really

what of this woman?

born and survived an abortion

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...given-her-mother-for-trying-to-kill-her..html

what sin does the unborn do get that.? uh jesus wasnt a sinner and yet he died for us. it PLEASED GOD to kill him

isiaih 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


and also this promise!
2 timothy 3:12

Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

so you a prosperity gospel teacher. no sin perfect health and money. hmm interesting.i dont see our god that way.

let me ask you did she willing allow that rape. i bet she was overpowered and had no hope. yes trust be common sense.

so calling the law to rescue us is a sin now? hmm funny that is what the apostle paul did in acts.

he told the centurion what his nephew said he didnt shy using the roman authorities to save him. he wanted to be with the lord but wasnt going around looking to die..
 
also jasoncran, you cannot compare the old covenant law to the law and order from government. Some law exists even today that prohibits anyone from carrying a Bible.

To the question regarding rape, nothing happens without the knowledge of God and He is in perfect control. If we are good, He will not allow any such evil to come near us.

A child around the age of 12 was raped because she was a Christian. Several years latter, it happened that the person who raped got converted to Christ and both of them got married and are missionaries telling their testimonies. The real problem is, people simply don't trust God anymore. They only trust their guns, law and order, and on their own i.e, self defense.

when did i say we should follow ungodly laws that ban christ. i didnt you did.

shoot paying taxes for building on own property isnt fair now is it. i can go on and on that. yet i pay.

im sure new zealand has unfair laws.
 
When one has been in a "bad guy" type life threatening situation i will believe what he/she has to say.

Those who fight with "ugly sweet" words share their own kind of poison.

Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

This is the crux of the matter isn't it.
Well said.
 
:nono2 felix when i was in afghanistan fighting the war on terror. i locked and loaded my weapon when the alarm sounded and prayed god dont let me die.

i guess praying that isnt really faithful? hmm odd why dont we do that with food. or work. just sit and expect god to bring us to food.
funny aint it.
 
Man if someone wants to start something I'll help them finish it :lol . And that goes for people who wanna start something with people I care for. It doesn't matter if you are a kid in school or an adult.

Anyone who says that Jesus would have taken the beating is ignorant. God isn't big into taking a whooping. Besides that logistically it doesn't work. If all the Christians just let people beat them up and walk over them than there wouldn't be any Christians left in the world no would there?
 
Man if someone wants to start something I'll help them finish it :lol . And that goes for people who wanna start something with people I care for. It doesn't matter if you are a kid in school or an adult.

Anyone who says that Jesus would have taken the beating is ignorant. God isn't big into taking a whooping. Besides that logistically it doesn't work. If all the Christians just let people beat them up and walk over them than there wouldn't be any Christians left in the world no would there?
hmm indeed.

god judged isreal for not defending the fatherless.

he said that he would hear the cries and come down from heaven to take care of them.

lest i judge thee and remove thee from the land.
 
what of this woman?

born and survived an abortion

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...given-her-mother-for-trying-to-kill-her..html

what sin does the unborn do get that.? uh jesus wasnt a sinner and yet he died for us. it PLEASED GOD to kill him

isiaih 53:10

I told you generational curse does exist as in John 9:3. The innocent child and thousands of nation's people had to die just because of one sin David did.

God does punish children for their parent's sins. I have seen this and experienced this with many people I know and see.
 
There's just no further reason to argue Jason.
There are rules and laws. If you break them you will pay the consequences.
In a passive society as some posters subscribe to, there would be no consequences. Imagine living in that world!!
Come on ,pacifism and appeasement worked great in the 1930s.
 
I told you generational curse does exist as in John 9:3. The innocent child and thousands of nation's people had to die just because of one sin David did.

God does punish children for their parent's sins. I have seen this and experienced this with many people I know and see.



that is the past.

and ye err

ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

a curse is a judgment see the torah for that cursed verse in deutermony 28

and this is where you are talking about.
exodus 20:5

You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

does a christian hate god?

no and also lets see here adam clarke is really good and what he knows on jews.

and viola!

Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
This necessarily implies-IF the children walk in the steps of their fathers; for no man can be condemned by Divine justice for a crime of which he was never guilty; see Ezekiel 13:1-9. Idolatry is however particularly intended, and visiting sins of this kind refers principally to national judgments. By withdrawing the Divine protection the idolatrous Israelites were delivered up into the hands of their enemies, from whom the gods in whom they had trusted could not deliver them. This God did to the third and fourth generations, i.e., successively; as may be seen in every part of the Jewish history, and particularly in the book of Judges. And this, at last, became the grand and the only effectual and lasting means in his hand of their final deliverance from idolatry; for it is well known that after the Babylonish captivity the Israelites were so completely saved from idolatry, as never more to have disgraced themselves by it as they had formerly done. These national judgments, thus continued from generation to generation, appear to be what are designed by the words in the text, Visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children,

hmm interesting the seventy year capitivity and judges fits that quite well.

ever think that the sin nature is passed on if never changed. ie if i smoke and am saved chances are my son will smoke. not a curse at all. just a habit that is passed.
 
that is the past.

and ye err

ezekiel 18:20

ezekiel 18:20 does agree with the law. To be accurate, it expands and explains that law. i.e, generational curse can be stopped by being good and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord.

Generational law happens only when sins are unforgiven. Although generational curse exists in NT times, they can be broken only by the blood of Christ.
 
ezekiel 18:20 does agree with the law. To be accurate, it expands and explains that law. i.e, generational curse can be stopped by being good and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord.

Generational law happens only when sins are unforgiven. Although generational curse exists in NT times, they can be broken only by the blood of Christ.
Much better brother. :thumbsup Emphasis on the word "only." :yes
 
Ta Daaaaa


Below is a very interesting article that I found.

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. (attributed to Jesus in Matthew 5:38-41, Revised Standard Version)

Many who have committed their lives to working for change and justice in the world simply dismiss Jesus' teachings about nonviolence as impractical idealism. And with good reason. "Turn the other cheek" suggests the passive, Christian doormat quality that has made so many Christians cowardly and complicit in the face of injustice. "Resist not evil" seems to break the back of all opposition to evil and counsel submission. "Going the second mile" has become a platitude meaning nothing more than "extend yourself." Rather than fostering structural change, such attitudes encourage collaboration with the oppressor.

Jesus never behaved in such ways. Whatever the source of the misunderstanding, it is neither Jesus nor his teaching, which, when given a fair hearing in its original social context, is arguably one of the most revolutionary political statements ever uttered.

When the court translators working in the hire of King James chose to translate antistenai as "Resist not evil," they were doing something more than rendering Greek into English. They were translating nonviolent resistance into docility. The Greek word means more than simply to "stand against" or "resist." It means to resist violently, to revolt or rebel, to engage in an insurrection. Jesus did not tell his oppressed hearers not to resist evil. His entire ministry is at odds with such a preposterous idea. He is, rather, warning against responding to evil in kind by letting the oppressor set the terms of our opposition.

A proper translation of Jesus' teaching would then be, "Do not retaliate against violence with violence." Jesus was no less committed to opposing evil than the anti-Roman resistance fighters like Barabbas. The only difference was over the means to be used.

There are three general responses to evil: (1) violent opposition, (2) passivity, and (3) the third way of militant nonviolence articulated by Jesus. Human evolution has conditioned us for only the first two of these responses: fight or flight.

Fight had been the cry of Galileans who had abortively rebelled against Rome only two decades before Jesus spoke. Jesus and many of his hearers would have seen some of the two thousand of their countrymen crucified by the Romans along the roadsides. They would have known some of the inhabitants of Sepphoris (a mere three miles north of Nazareth) who had been sold into slavery for aiding the insurrectionists' assault on the arsenal there. Some also would live to experience the horrors of the war against Rome in 66-70 C.E., one of the ghastliest in history. If the option of fighting had no appeal to them, their only alternative was flight: passivity, submission, or, at best, a passive-aggressive recalcitrance in obeying commands. For them no third way existed.

Now we are in a better position to see why King James' servants translated antistenai as "resist not." The king would not want people concluding they had any recourse against his or any other sovereign's unjust policies. Jesus commands us, according to these king's men, to resist not. Jesus appears to say say that submission to monarchial absolutism is the will of God. Most modern translations have meekly followed the King James path.

Neither of the invidious alternatives of flight or fight is what Jesus is proposing. Jesus abhors both passivity and violence as responses to evil. His is a third alternative not even touched by these options. The Scholars Version translates Antistenai brilliantly: "Don't react violently against someone who is evil."

Jesus clarifies his meaning by three brief examples. "If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Why the right cheek? How does one strike another on the right cheek anyway? Try it. A blow by the right fist in that right-handed world would land on the left cheek of the opponent. To strike the right cheek with the fist would require using the left hand, but in that society the left hand was used only for unclean tasks. As the Dead Sea Scrolls specify, even to gesture with the left hand at Qumran carried the penalty of ten days penance. The only way one could strike the right cheek with the right hand would be with the back of the hand.

What we are dealing with here is unmistakably an insult, not a fistfight. The intention is not to injure but to humiliate, to put someone in his or her place. One normally did not strike a peer in this way, and if one did the fine was exorbitant (four zuz was the fine for a blow to a peer with a fist, 400 zuz for backhanding him; but to an underling, no penalty whatever). A backhand slap was the normal way of admonishing inferiors. Masters backhanded slaves; husbands, wives; parents, children; men, women; Romans, Jews.

We have here a set of unequal relations, in each of which retaliation would be suicidal. The only normal response would be cowering submission. It is important to ask who Jesus' audience is. In every case, Jesus' listeners are not those who strike, initiate lawsuits, or impose forced labor. Rather, Jesus is speaking to their victims, people who have been subjected to these very indignities. They have been forced to stifle their inner outrage at the dehumanizing treatment meted out to them by the hierarchical system of caste and class, race and gender, age and status, and by the guardians of imperial occupation.

Why then does Jesus counsel these already humiliated people to turn the other cheek? Because this action robs the oppressor of power to humiliate them. The person who turns the other cheek is saying, in effect, "Try again. Your first blow failed to achieve its intended effect. I deny you the power to humiliate me. I am a human being just like you. Your status (gender, race, age, wealth) does not alter that. You cannot demean me." Such a response would create enormous difficulties for the striker. Purely logistically, how can he now hit the other cheek? He cannot backhand it with his right hand. If he hits with a fist, he makes himself an equal, acknowledging the other as a peer. But the whole point of the back of the hand is to reinforce the caste system and its institutionalized inequality.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message665517/pg1
[/QUOTE]
 
therefore felix if the man is a christian why then does still suffer?

god never promised us a good life.

and yes lewis few of them see that.
 
it's important to realize, Christ could have driven all his persecutors insane with merely his mind, blown their bodies into atoms, but he endured their bullying and persecution, because he knew that the vast majority of people who get bullied cannot fight back. The reason people bully you is because they are very aware, that you cannot fight back, and they WANT you to try to fight back.

When you fight back, it makes it so much more exciting for bullies, it becomes more thrilling for them, and encourages them.

When two cats hiss and growl and have a stand off, they are gauging eachother's adrenaline response. All animals do this, in a ritualized, practical territorial dispute for mates and food, but humans do it for a kind of psychological gratification, what we refer to as 'the ego'. The ego is really in this case, a sense of well being and confidence in securing one's feeding space and mating rights to females who pass into our territory.

In the case of homosexuals, which is really what the media is talking about, this is a kind of moral persecution of people, one could say sending murderers to jail is 'bullying', or arresting drunken drivers is 'bullying'.

Really, thought I think the whole 'bullying' media garbage is a public psyop, because the whole world regards the US as a bully for invading Iraq and Afghanistan, so they want people to think their government is against bullying. Kind of makes you want to throw up. We are being ruled by the most vile, deceitful, avaricious, diabolical snake like people the world has ever seen. Calling them 'satanic' is an appropriate use of the term.
 
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