Bible Study Matthew 23

[John the Baptist]

that has killed over 100 million CHRISTIANS as documented to Rome in history"

John,
_________
You claimed the documentation on this was available. Please provide. Thanks!

I believe that it was over 150 million, (my mistake) & also stated that that may be a low estimate? Yet, this will even just be tossed aside by you, huh? : ---John
________

Foxe's Book of Martyrs
Edited By: W. Grinton Berry

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Description: With millions of copies in print, Foxe's Book of Martyrs has become a classic of magnificent courage and faith. This unparalleled volume chronicles the tragic yet triumphant stories of men and women who faced torture and martyrdom rather than deny their vision of truth and of God. Beginning with Jesus Christ, this exceptional historical record traces the roots of religious persecution through the sixteenth century. It examines the heroic lives of great men and women such as John Hus, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Anne Askew, Lady Jane Grey, and Martin Luther. John Foxe also knew persecution. Forced to flee from his native England to Europe during Queen Mary's severe persecution of those holding Reformed views, he carefully compiled records of martyred Christians. His writings possess a sense of immediacy and insight into suffering that few "objective" church historians can match. This edition has been streamlined and reorganized by W. Grinton Berry to present work in today's language.

Recommend Foxe's Book of Martyrs to Your Friends


__________________
FOX's BOOK of MARTYRS
Edited by William Byron Forbush
This is a book that will never die -- one of the great English classics. . . . Reprinted here in its most complete form, it brings to life the days when "a noble army, men and boys, the matron and the maid," "climbed the steep ascent of heaven, 'mid peril, toil, and pain."
"After the Bible itself, no book so profoundly influenced early Protestant sentiment as the Book of Martyrs. Even in our time it is still a living force. It is more than a record of persecution. It is an arsenal of controversy, a storehouse of romance, as well as a source of edification."



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Contents

About the book and the author
Chapter I -- History of Christian Martyrs to the First General Persecutions Under Nero
Chapter II -- The Ten Primitive Persecutions
Chapter III -- Persecutions of the Christians in Persia
Chapter IV -- Papal Persecutions
Chapter V -- An Account of the Inquisition
Chapter VI -- An Account of the Persecutions in Italy, Under the Papacy
Chapter VII -- An Account of the Life and Persecutions of John Wickliffe
Chapter VIII -- An Account of the Persecutions in Bohemia Under the Papacy
Chapter IX -- An Account of the Life and Persecutions of Martin Luther
Chapter X -- General Persecutions in Germany
Chapter XI -- An Account of the Persecutions in the Netherlands
Chapter XII -- The Life and Story of the True Servant and Martyr of God, William Tyndale
Chapter XIII -- An Account of the Life of John Calvin
Chapter XIV -- Prior to the Reign of Queen Mary I
Chapter XV -- An Account of the Persecutions in Scotland During the Reign of King Henry VIII
Chapter XVI -- Persecutions in England During the Reign of Queen Mary
Chapter XVII -- Rise and Progress of the Protestant Religion in Ireland; with an Account of the Barbarous Massacre of 1641
Chapter XVIII -- The Rise, Progress, Persecutions, and Sufferings of the Quakers
Chapter XIX -- An Account of the Life and Persecutions of John Bunyan
Chapter XX -- An Account of the Life of John Wesley
Chapter XXI -- Persecutions of the French Protestants in the South of France, During the Years 1814 and 1820
Chapter XXII -- The Beginnings of American Foreign Missions

 

[thessalonian]

Foxe's Book of Martyr's documents the 150 Million? John, John, I happen to have FBM. It does not document 150 million. Sorry.

John,

There were at it's highest population, 75 million in Europe durning the time in question. The possibility that the Church killed 150 million in that time frame is so ludicrous that it need not be refuted. Those Bishops were evidently according to you spending all their time at barbeque's. This along with your Jesuit theories show that you are unstable John. I mean that in the kindest of ways.

God bless

 

[John the Baptist]

Foxe's Book of Martyr's documents the 150 Million? John, John, I happen to have FBM. It does not document 150 million. Sorry.

John,

There were at it's highest population, 75 million in Europe durning the time in question. The possibility that the Church killed 150 million in that time frame is so ludicrous that it need not be refuted. Those Bishops were evidently according to you spending all their time at barbeque's. This along with your Jesuit theories show that you are unstable John. I mean that in the kindest of ways.

God bless

********
Just what difference would it make if it was 100 or 150,000,000? Regardless 'old' friend,, (some 35+ years back) your antichrist cult [church fold] is an open cesspool of almost daily documented satanic doctrines & open filth! And the Johnstown 'cool-aid' slaughter is just a preview of what following 'man' has produced. What is new, God asks??

And the number of ones that [she] will have caused to die even the second future death, will even stagger you into reality before long is my thinking? Revelation 3:9 last part of the verse.

Anyone could just read the verses of Joshua 7:12's last part of its verse, to see that Rome is a Christ/less church! but one would need some spiritual 'light' to understand that God states a fact!

Forum: God has prophesied what will happen, it could have been written differently, yet, He knew what 'way' the lost ones would choose even before they were here! (yet the 'free' choice was still theirs to make)
And even this doctrine of 'hell's' ending, Rome has botched up!

God says: "... and they shall be as though they had not been." Obadiah 1:16

God states again: "Knowest the triumphing of the wicked [is short], and [the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?]

Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds:
Yet he shall [perish for ever] like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, [Where is he?]

He shall fly away as a dream, and shall [not be found:] yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.

The eye also which saw him shall see him [no more:] neither [shall his place any more behold him.]" Job 20:4-9 (satan's seat is in Rome)

This is the prophecy of satan, and your pope, and all of satans Genesis 4:7's 'Desirees'! :

And again, whatever??

---John

 

[thessalonian]

Thought you had proof of your accusations John. Now you say "what does it matter". Bearing false witness matters whether it is against your friend or you enemy John. That is what matters. Don't the scrpitures say to love you enemies? Is misrepresentation of the numbers, whatever they are, ie. slander, i.e. loving your enemies? Therefore from the perspective of YOUR honesty and YOUR desire to represent the truth and YOUR trustability and YOUR committment to loving your enimies and YOUR living out the Gospel it matters alot. YOU have an obligation to prove your
"facts" otherwise YOUR posts are nothing but gossip. Evidently you have no problem with slandering those whom you don't like.

God bless

 

[Henry]

Church history shows popes kill people, it isn't a secret after all. Sheshhhhhh

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Church history shows popes kill people, it isn't a secret after all. Sheshhhhhh

That's kind of a broad generalization don't you think?

 

[Henry]

Nope I don't think so, sorry but the office and idea of pope is just silly to me and I personaly have a hard respecting people who fall for that stuff.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Nope I don't think so, sorry but the office and idea of pope is just silly to me and I personaly have a hard respecting people who fall for that stuff.

Why is that? Is it because we beleive the Pope is infallible? It's interesting that you throw a fit every time we call the Pope infallible, yet have no problem excersising infallability yourself. You don't have the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Christ didn't tell you to feed His sheep.
Yet, your interpretation of Scripture is superior to mine. Fascinating.

 

[Henry]

Never said I was infallable and the pope sure isn't either.

Oh and God did not tell a pope to feed his sheep, he was talking to peter and he was not a pope.

Sorry but you you guys have been dooped.

 

[Henry]

Wait you think that there are actually keys and the pope has them? So you are saying that the pope can let you in or not?

Sorry that is WRONG !!! I do have the keys to the kingdom the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We are all PRIEST and KINGS no one over the other.

So the pope the preist the bishops all that is man made junk, that is not founded in scripture at all.

Oh, yes you have verses so what, thyy are our of context and misused. I am sorry but when Catholic begins to talk about the bible I am stunned at how far off they are, so far I can't even believe they buy what they are selling.

Sorry I still am not impressed by the pope or his lackies. I would gladly tell him to his face he is sinful man who needs to repent just the same as the rest of us.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Never said I was infallable and the pope sure isn't either.

I never said you did. I said you exsercise infallibilty. Your interpretation of sacred Scripture is superior to mine. You are inspired by the Holy Spirit and everyone who opposes you is not.

Wait you think that there are actually keys and the pope has them? So you are saying that the pope can let you in or not?

Yep.

Sorry that is WRONG !!! I do have the keys to the kingdom the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hmmm.....I'm pretty sure Jesus just gave the keys to St. Peter. Can you even answer why it was Peter out of all the other Apostles?

We are all PRIEST and KINGS no one over the other

Then what do you make of Luke 22:29-30 ?

So the pope the preist the bishops all that is man made junk, that is not founded in scripture at all.

Really? Bishops aren't mentioned in Scripture? Priests (Elders) either? The Pope; why was Peter given such prominence?

Oh, yes you have verses so what, thyy are our of context and misused.

Says who?

I am sorry but when Catholic begins to talk about the bible I am stunned at how far off they are, so far I can't even believe they buy what they are selling.

So....you then do agree that your interpretation of Scripture is superior?

Sorry I still am not impressed by the pope or his lackies. I would gladly tell him to his face he is sinful man who needs to repent just the same as the rest of us

I'm sure he would quickly agree.


By the way, you never answered my question. Is the Bishopric (Episcopacy) an office?

 

[Henry]

I never said you did. I said you exsercise infallibilty. Your interpretation of sacred Scripture is superior to mine. You are inspired by the Holy Spirit and everyone who opposes you is not.

Sorry that you have to think in such a way as this. Never the less it is about undersand the word of God not who is superior to whom, which is one of the reason I can't stand the catholic church and it's heirarchial leadership structure placing one man over another and yet another over him and so on.

You have this superior thing going on becuase that is the theology you have been taught, but that is not the theology the bible teaches.

The bible says we not to call any man on earth Father, but instead we are all brothers and God alone is our Father.

Hmmm.....I'm pretty sure Jesus just gave the keys to St. Peter. Can you even answer why it was Peter out of all the other Apostles?

This just gets me, I can not believe that you guys actualy think Jesus made peter a pope. I don't ask the question why he choice peter becuase I don't believe that is what was going on here.

We are all PRIEST and KINGS no one over the other

Then what do you make of Luke 22:29-30 ?

You see this is what I am talking about, I don't need to "make anything of it" the epsitles tell us that we are all preist and kings. You need to reconcile the two.

Jesus was not teaching a ladder up leadership, read it context.

Luk 22:24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We are NOT TO BE LIKE THAT. The Kingdom that Jesus is talking about is not like one of the world. This is why I am not interested in a so called catholic bible study, verses are always taken out of context and used to prove something the writer was not even talking about.

Really? Bishops aren't mentioned in Scripture? Priests (Elders) either? The Pope; why was Peter given such prominence?

Tisk tisk, no not as we know them today they are not mentioned in the scriptures. What we call a bishop today and what the scripture was talking about are as differenct as night and day.

You would do well to know that just because someone uses a word that is in the bible, does not mean that word they use means the same thing as the scripture means.

So shure theword bishopis in the bible, but no that word does not have anything at all to do with the church governmental structure you think it does.

By the way, you never answered my question. Is the Bishopric (Episcopacy) an office?

In a man made religon it is, but there is not church office in the bible. Oh and before you go to the ONE verse has the word "office" remember the word could and does mean something else entirely.

Sorry, but there simply is nothing you can say to convince me of the valitity of the RCC. It is a man made religon full of paganism and an insult to Gods word.

 

[thessalonian]

I would gladly tell him to his face he is sinful man who needs to repent just the same as the rest of us.

Well I think the Pope would agree with you since he makes frequent use of the sacrament of confession. JP II went daily as I understand. He would be the first to admit he was a sinner in need of grace and did if you read his writings.
;-)
God bless you Henry.

 

[Henry]

The pope sits on a thrown and people kiss his ring in adohartion of him. Don't be so foolish as to think this man is at all a humble man.

Here is a story, I work as a Chaplain and often that means I work with a patient who is going to die. When they are catholic they want the "last rites" or as it is known today "the annointing of the sick" So I contact the priest at their parish and make the arrangements.

The other day (and this is common) I called the guy, he said "I was already there yestarday, I gave the annointing there is nothing left for me to do." Now I am there when they guys do this, they come in they say some prayers out of a book, some make this statement about absolving the patient of sins (as if they could) and then they leave.

By far the worst pastoral care I have ever seen.

Well, I said to the guy "The family understands that, they are requesting specifically that you come a be with them for a little while. They are members of your congration and just want some pastoral care from you"

He said "Well I'll call that lady and tell here I've already been there"

Now, contrast that with other groups who say "Thank you chaplain I'll come down" and they do, and they provide pastoral care. Not just some prayers out of a book and off they go.

The priest did not come.

From my personal experience, and I work with ALLOT of different kinds of churches, the RCC provides the worst and coldest pastoral care. They are concerned with empty rites and ritual and not much more. They come and go through the motions, offer a few platitudes then run off as fast as they can.

Always making it known to me how annoyed they are to be taken from church work, to be with a family of a dead person !!!

The church work is the DEAD PATIENT'S FAMILY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, you can ramble all you want, I work with these preist and am not impressed at all with them. Rite, ritual and recitals is all they are good for and those things are empty and valueless as well.

Take the annointing of the sick. The poor patient thinks that a preist can come and do this and it means something, well the same patient could hold the hand of his loved one and pray to God and it would have MORE VALUE eternally then the cold rite of the priest.

The priest is nothing.

RCC empty and vain, the more I work with the RCC the more I can hardly stomache the silly none sence they do.

Keep in mind I am talking about the RCC system and doctrinal beliefs. NOT THE AVERAGE PERSON.

I felt so bad for that family that the man they PAY to be God rep to them, is such a jerk and he is pretty much an example of all the ones I have met.

I remember one Priest I had to rebuke, when he said to me "I have already given the annointing of the sick..." (again with that) I said "You call yourself and man of God and yet you turn your back on his people when they need you, you are no man of God"

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+


That priest ought to be ashamed of himself....

You were right to rebuke him. I've met priests just like him. I also know good holy priests who drop anything for the sake of the flock. I can't let a handful of priest who don't know what it means to be a priest, define the priesthood.

 

[thessalonian]

Henry,

That priest most definitely was a very bad example. I know of several preists who are chaplins who would never be so rude.

However the graces those patients recieved in last rights were far more effective, whether you believe it or not than any man's words.

Kissing a ring is adoratoin? Perhaps you can find me a scripture passage that says "thou shall not kiss a ring" or "kissing is adoration"? Did Jesus adore the Apostles when he kissed them? I need scripture Henry, otherwise it is simply a man speaking (in the context of your belief system).

By the way Henry, how come this model of gentlness and mercy you proclaim yourself to be does not carry over to this board? Not to be superior sounding at all because I am not anywhere near perfect either in this area. Why would you be a kind, gentle, loving soul at the hospital and something different here? Which one is a fasaud? I ask this in all gentleness and you don't need to answer. Just some food for thought. For me as well.

Anecdotal evidence such as you have given is a red herring Henry. I can point to many protestants, including pastors who have behaved badly, just as 11 of 12 apostles did at the crusifixion.

Blessings

 

[Henry]

That priest most definitely was a very bad example. I know of several preists who are chaplins who would never be so rude.

That priest is typical of them all, the focus is on the ritual and not the pastoral care. Those who are chaplains are trainedto be chaplains, which is different then being a priest. But even so the priest I know who are chaplains still have the same focus on the ritual and not the patoral care.

The ritual is empty, it offers a false hope and give the preist a false sence the he has done the work of the Lord. This includes the eucerist too.

However the graces those patients recieved in last rights were far more effective, whether you believe it or not than any man's words.

Get real it is just mans words. Nothing biblical at all about it, empty void and vain.

Kissing a ring is adoratoin? Perhaps you can find me a scripture passage that says "thou shall not kiss a ring" or "kissing is adoration"? Did Jesus adore the Apostles when he kissed them? I need scripture Henry, otherwise it is simply a man speaking (in the context of your belief system).

LOL you are kidding right? This is as stupid as the argument that says "Show me where the scripture says we can drive a car" The word of God says CALL NO MAN ON EARTH FATHER !!! You not only do that, you call one man the HOLY FATHER.

Now when Jesus kissed his followers it was not even close to this kissing the popes ring. If they where here today they would be shocked and offended by the way the pope is treated and the amount of exhaultation he is given.

There is NOTHING you can say that would change my mind, the pope is nothing, priest are nothing and the entire RCC is a man made religon full to the rim with paganism and idolrty. NOTIHNG you or anyone can say will change my mind EVER.

By the way Henry, how come this model of gentlness and mercy you proclaim yourself to be does not carry over to this board? Not to be superior sounding at all because I am not anywhere near perfect either in this area. Why would you be a kind, gentle, loving soul at the hospital and something different here? Which one is a fasaud? I ask this in all gentleness and you don't need to answer. Just some food for thought. For me as well.

This a debate place and like you that is why I come here, to debate. The tone of my voice will be imagined by the reader, I can not controll that. Never the less, I am not to fluff the pillows.

I also enjoy debates out side this boarde, with priest and monks. We generally have fun. I also debate with pastors and we too have fun. Not everyone can debate though.

There is not fasuad, when I am with my patients I am there to serve their needs not agree or disagree with them, that is why I call the priest when they ask. For the most part they really have not idea about the theology the informs their faith anyways, and if they do that is fine. Never the less my roles is a clinical and professional role.

It is wrong for you to imply I am a fake, certainly I can be grounded in my beliefs and still show care for sick people.

But I will NEVER say the hale mary prayer, I simply say "Sorry I don't know that prayer it is not part of my church tradition"

Anecdotal evidence such as you have given is a red herring Henry. I can point to many protestants, including pastors who have behaved badly, just as 11 of 12 apostles did at the crusifixion.

Oh give me a break, I am talking about my own experience over the last few years with many preist. They are different in personality, but in practice the same. They all think they are there to do the ritual if that is done, they don't want to waist their time. It hurst the patients and shows a lack of pastoral concern for the actual people.

The ritual again is empty and vain, it gives a false hope. There is no magic forumals with God and a genuine prayer from the sick person is MUCH better and what I encourage them to do. You think God is impressed with the ritual, but the word of God says he is not and more so the word of God does not even support the priesthood.

As for pastors, the only difference is the way they dress. Other wise they serve the same functions as the priest does, and are as lacking in pastoral care training as are the priest. Though to their credit they will come to visit with out the pretence of some kind of ritual and do try harder to provide pastoral care.

The better ones are those who have some Clinincal Pastoral Education training, which by the way teaches that Pastors are the worst chaplains (untrained that is)

And I am not protestant. I see very little difference between you and them, I am in the house church movement and think you are both unbiblical monsters (the system, not the people)

Bottom line is that you are not going to sway me, the more you deffend this harlet church the more you affirm my distain for it. However you can rest assured that I feel the same way about the protestants, just to a lesser degree.

So, the RCC is a man made pagan filled institution, that perverts the bible and worships idols, I think the pope is a fraud and a fake, he is not a man of God at all and I agree with another person here, he is the anti-christ and leading people away from God not to Him.

 

[thessalonian]

Thanks for your handwaving henry.

The word of God says CALL NO MAN ON EARTH FATHER !!! You not only do that, you call one man the HOLY FATHER

Tell me, do you eat bread with leaven? We've been through this nonsense before. Do you call your papa daddy? God himself names men who assist in giving us life fathers Henry. Now Jesus according to you comes along and says, "I (God) messed up. I shouldn't have had you call your dad father. For you should call no man on earth father". No henry, your hyperliteral rendering only shows you to be lacking proper exegetical judgement along with the house church thing.

LOL you are kidding right? This is as stupid as the argument that says "Show me where the scripture says we can drive a car" .

I'm only using the same quality arguement that you have used many times on this board henry. The Bible never mentions buildings you say and so we should not worship in them. How is that study of scripture justifying the word of God on magnetic media Henry? These types of stupid (and I agree they are) arguements aren't mine, but I thought you would get that since it was you that made the buildings arguement.

What you have regarding the "falsity" of the eucharist is the same thing you accuse us of on this thread. The plain words of scripture. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you shall not have life within you", "My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink" "this is my body...this is my blood". But Henry says, in those cases the scriptures don't mean what they say. :-? Oh but a man would have to be a fool to believe that you say. Call me one if you like. I will follow Jesus and he is my judge.

I have no doudt that I will not convince you of anything because your heart is hard to the truth. Perhaps God will someday allow you the grace.
All I have time for in your long winded handwaving post full of prejudice.

Blessings though

PS. Like it or not you are a protestant. The standard venom and rhetoric you use proves it is so.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
Just wondering if [anyone] is so [blind] as to not see what jesuit tactic's are, & where they 'originate' & came from???
Even if perhaps most or some do not agree with any poster? but when we see 'A post' twisted by any persons comments, as the below one is, then it is classified as nothing less than is seen in 2 Corinthians 2:4 Does that make sense? In other words, read both posts & see if that is what Henry was talking about? [HARDLY!]

Thanks for your handwaving henry.

Quote:
The word of God says CALL NO MAN ON EARTH FATHER !!! You not only do that, you call one man the HOLY FATHER
...
"Tell me, do you eat bread with leaven? We've been through this nonsense before. Do you call your papa daddy? God himself names men who assist in giving us life fathers Henry. Now Jesus according to you comes along and says, "I (God) messed up. I shouldn't have had you call your dad father. For you should call no man on earth father". No henry, your hyperliteral rendering only shows you to be lacking proper exegetical judgement along with the house church thing."

 

[thessalonian]

John, I'm not a jesuit and your not rational. :-?