Misunderstand by Jws and Protestants

[journeyman]

Jws use this passage as proof that Jesus isn't God,

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27 KJV

Reformed theologuans say,

That our Saviour, as man and mediator between God and man, has a delegated royalty, a kingdom given: All things are put under him, he excepted that did put all things under him,v. 27
Matthew Henry commentary, Blue Letter Bible

Henry incorrectly teaches the Father and Son are being compared , but in that passage Paul is referring to Adam when God said,

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen.1:26 KJV

Jesus created Adam and the resurrection made it manifest that Jesus is excepted from being under Adam and this neglected truth leads to more error.

David Guziks' commentary courtesty of Blue Letter Bible says,

But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted: Paul reminds us that the Son will not someday be superior to the Father. The relationship of Father to Son will be eternal: the Son Himself will also be subject to Him.

Guzik incorrectly assumed "subject to" is being used in a sense of inferiority, but that is the opposite of what Paul means, because the subject is the resurrection from the dead,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

Paul means when the "last enemy" is destroyed by the resurrection of the saints. When believers are glorified, made in Christs' image, the Christ will be goorified as God,

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1Cor.15:28 KJV

 

[tdidymas]

Jws use this passage as proof that Jesus isn't God,

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27 KJV

Reformed theologuans say,

That our Saviour, as man and mediator between God and man, has a delegated royalty, a kingdom given: All things are put under him, he excepted that did put all things under him,v. 27
Matthew Henry commentary, Blue Letter Bible

Henry incorrectly teaches the Father and Son are being compared , but in that passage Paul is referring to Adam when God said,

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen.1:26 KJV

Jesus created Adam and the resurrection made it manifest that Jesus is excepted from being under Adam and this neglected truth leads to more error.

David Guziks' commentary courtesty of Blue Letter Bible says,

But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted: Paul reminds us that the Son will not someday be superior to the Father. The relationship of Father to Son will be eternal: the Son Himself will also be subject to Him.

Guzik incorrectly assumed "subject to" is being used in a sense of inferiority, but that is the opposite of what Paul means, because the subject is the resurrection from the dead,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

Paul means when the "last enemy" is destroyed by the resurrection of the saints. When believers are glorified, made in Christs' image, the Christ will be goorified as God,

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1Cor.15:28 KJV

It doesn't appear to me that your argument is convincing. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the "him" in v. 27 refers to Adam, not Christ. But when we put v. 27 and 28 together, it reads (like the NIV):

For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The context has the "him" referring to Christ. I take it that Paul is not referring to Ps. 8:6 in its strictest literal sense, but in a sense applicable to Christ. Therefore, I don't think your argument is valid to refute the JW's (false) interpretation of this verse. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[journeyman]

It doesn't appear to me that your argument is convincing. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the "him" in v. 27 refers to Adam, not Christ. But when we put v. 27 and 28 together, it reads (like the NIV):

The context has the "him" referring to Christ. I take it that Paul is not referring to Ps. 8:6 in its strictest literal sense, but in a sense applicable to Christ. Therefore, I don't think your argument is valid to refute the JW's (false) interpretation of this verse. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes tdidymas, you understand me correctly, but the translation you cited doesn't say, "God himself, who put everything under Christ." "Christ" was added by men, not God. Those translators assumed Paul was comparing the Father and Son, applicable to Christ this way,

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive......For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he (Christ] is excepted, which did put all things under him (Adam)1Cor.15:21-222,27 KJV

By Christs' resurrection it's manifest that He is not only over all mankind and always was,

with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. Mk.1:27 KJV

he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him. Lk.8:25 KJV

Paul is using the term "subject to" in regard to the resurrection, which glorifies. What was hidden is now made clear.

Jesus only seemed weak, but He defeated all power which opposed Him...in the past.

 

[journeyman]

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Mt.6:9-10

Thy will be done on earth:

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: Eze.33:11 KJV

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:3-4 KJV

to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph.3:9 KJV

As it is in Heaven:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jde.1:6

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2Pet.2:4 KJV

Somethings missing.

 

[tdidymas]

Yes tdidymas, you understand me correctly, but the translation you cited doesn't say, "God himself, who put everything under Christ." "Christ" was added by men, not God. Those translators assumed Paul was comparing the Father and Son, applicable to Christ this way,

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive......For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he (Christ] is excepted, which did put all things under him (Adam)1Cor.15:21-222,27 KJV

By Christs' resurrection it's manifest that He is not only over all mankind and always was,

with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. Mk.1:27 KJV

he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him. Lk.8:25 KJV

Paul is using the term "subject to" in regard to the resurrection, which glorifies. What was hidden is now made clear.

Jesus only seemed weak, but He defeated all power which opposed Him...in the past.

I don't think you are correct here. Again, look at the next statement, v. 28:
"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all"

It says "the Son" referring to "him" to whom all things had been subjected in v.27. So then, it reads: When all things are subjected to him (Christ), then the Son (Christ) himself will also be subjected to him (the Father) who put all things in subjection under him (Christ)... - fits well with v. 27.

Your theory would read: when all things are subjected to man, then Christ himself will also be subjected to Christ who put all things in subjection under man.
No, this makes no sense and is not logical.

The only way to make it logical would be to make the Son out to be man, which I would disagree with. The passage is about Christ defeating the final enemy which is death, per v. 24-26. Other than this, all things are subjected to Christ per Mat. 28:18. Therefore the identification of the "him" that all things are subjected to is Christ.

 

[tdidymas]

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Mt.6:9-10

Thy will be done on earth:

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: Eze.33:11 KJV

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:3-4 KJV

to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph.3:9 KJV

As it is in Heaven:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jde.1:6

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2Pet.2:4 KJV

Somethings missing.

What's the point here? I don't see it.

 

[journeyman]

I don't think you are correct here. Again, look at the next statement, v. 28:
"When all things are subjected to him,

Subjected to Him how? By the bodily resurrection from the dead. When? When the saints are transformed, death (the last enemy) will no longer exist.

then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all"

Jesus has always been "subject" to His Father.

It says "the Son" referring to "him" to whom all things had been subjected in v.27.

No. It says the Messiahs' reign ends when the saints are glorified (subjected to Christ (the image of God.) Then we will see the Messiah honored, "that God may be all in all.

So then, it reads: When all things are subjected to him (Christ), then the Son (Christ) himself will also be subjected to him (the Father) who put all things in subjection under him (Christ)... - fits well with v. 27.

Your theory would read: when all things are subjected to man, then Christ himself will also be subjected to Christ who put all things in subjection under man.
No, this makes no sense and is not logical.

The only way to make it logical would be to make the Son out to be man, which I would disagree with. The passage is about Christ defeating the final enemy which is death, per v. 24-26. Other than this, all things are subjected to Christ per Mat. 28:18. Therefore the identification of the "him" that all things are subjected to is Christ.

You're ignoring the context of this chapter, which is Chrisrs's resurrectiin and how it affects interpretation,

one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. Heb.2:6-8 KJV

This wasn't true of Adam when he was on earth, but it is true of Jesus,

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jn.10.17-18 KJV

But now we see not yet all things put under him. Jn.10:17-18 KJV

Why? Because when that day happens there will be no doubt that Jesus is God and no man could survive His presence and live.....without being transformed. No man except the One who in the beginning put the earth under Adams' dominion.

 

[tdidymas]

Subjected to Him how? By the bodily resurrection from the dead. When? When the saints are transformed, death (the last enemy) will no longer exist.

Jesus has always been "subject" to His Father.

No. It says the Messiahs' reign ends when the saints are glorified (subjected to Christ (the image of God.) Then we will see the Messiah honored, "that God may be all in all.

You're ignoring the context of this chapter, which is Chrisrs's resurrectiin and how it affects interpretation,

one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. Heb.2:6-8 KJV

This wasn't true of Adam when he was on earth, but it is true of Jesus,

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jn.10.17-18 KJV

But now we see not yet all things put under him. Jn.10:17-18 KJV

Why? Because when that day happens there will be no doubt that Jesus is God and no man could survive His presence and live.....without being transformed. No man except the One who in the beginning put the earth under Adams' dominion.

I still think you have to deal with the flow of the conversation like I pointed out. I don't see you've done that.

 

[journeyman]

I still think you have to deal with the flow of the conversation like I pointed out. I don't see you've done that.

when I am weak, then am I strong. 2Cor.12:10 KJV

I understand that comcept. You must not understand that concept, or at least see how understanding Pauls' meaning completely flips how impotance and power are viewed in Christ. The resurrection is simply reaping what was sown.

 

[Runningman]

Jws use this passage as proof that Jesus isn't God,

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27 KJV

Reformed theologuans say,

That our Saviour, as man and mediator between God and man, has a delegated royalty, a kingdom given: All things are put under him, he excepted that did put all things under him,v. 27
Matthew Henry commentary, Blue Letter Bible

Henry incorrectly teaches the Father and Son are being compared , but in that passage Paul is referring to Adam when God said,

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen.1:26 KJV

Jesus created Adam and the resurrection made it manifest that Jesus is excepted from being under Adam and this neglected truth leads to more error.

David Guziks' commentary courtesty of Blue Letter Bible says,

But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted: Paul reminds us that the Son will not someday be superior to the Father. The relationship of Father to Son will be eternal: the Son Himself will also be subject to Him.

Guzik incorrectly assumed "subject to" is being used in a sense of inferiority, but that is the opposite of what Paul means, because the subject is the resurrection from the dead,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

Paul means when the "last enemy" is destroyed by the resurrection of the saints. When believers are glorified, made in Christs' image, the Christ will be goorified as God,

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1Cor.15:28 KJV

I wouldn't so this is a JW interpretation of this passage, but the Biblical plain text of the passage.

The easier reading of this passage seems to indicate that Paul is saying that Jesus got his authority from God, but that Jesus isn't equal to God. Jesus has a subordinate role to the Father, but in the end will return all of his authority to God and also be made subject to God.

Jesus' reign is temporary in this context, as it says in verse 25 "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." Which follows logically that when all enemies are under his feet, his reign ends. This is also the conclusion Paul makes in verse 28: "when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all."

It refers to all authority returning to the Father in the end. Yes, it does mean Jesus isn't God.

 

[journeyman]

I wouldn't so this is a JW interpretation of this passage, but the Biblical plain text of the passage.

The easier reading of this passage seems to indicate that Paul is saying that Jesus got his authority from God, but that Jesus isn't equal to God. Jesus has a subordinate role to the Father, but in the end will return all of his authority to God and also be made subject to God.

There never was a time or ever will be when Jesus wasn"t subject to His Father,

...for I do always those things that please him. Jn.8:29 KJV

Jesus' reign is temporary in this context, as it says in verse 25 "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." Which follows logically that when all enemies are under his feet, his reign ends.

He means during the Messiahs' reign, He puts His enemies under His control by reasoning with sinners by the gospel,

you, that were sometime alienated and enemies Col.1:21 KJV

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth...Eph.1:13 KJV

This is also the conclusion Paul makes in verse 28: "when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all."

It refers to all authority returning to the Father in the end. Yes, it does mean Jesus isn't God.

Do you believe the judgement seat of Christ and the "GWTJ" are different? Scripture makes no distinction.

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Tim.4:1 KJV

we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Rom.4:10-12 KJV

 

[journeyman]

Runningman,
The Apostles said Jesus is returning this way,

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire...2Thes.2:7-8 KJV

the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [/b]
2Pet.3:10 KJV

As this world was once engulfed in water, Christs' coming engulfs it in fire along with heaven. How do you explain any person who hasn't been transformed surviving this?

 

[Runningman]

Runningman,
The Apostles said Jesus is returning this way,

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire...2Thes.2:7-8 KJV

the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [/b]
2Pet.3:10 KJV

As this world was once engulfed in water, Christs' coming engulfs it in fire along with heaven. How do you explain any person who hasn't been transformed surviving this?

The Day of the Lord and the day of Christ aren't the same things, but they occur within close proximity because God brings Jesus back. The first couple of verses of 2 Thessalonians 2 show that the gathering to Christ isn't the same thing as the day of the Lord, but 1 Thessalonians 4:14,15 show that God brings Jesus back and that the gathering to Jesus is not the day of the Lord, characterized by fire.

1 Thessalonians 4​

14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.​

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.​

The angels not only gather the elect, but also gather the wicked and put them in fire.

Matthew 13​

49So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

 

[Runningman]

There never was a time or ever will be when Jesus wasn"t subject to His Father,

...for I do always those things that please him. Jn.8:29 KJV

Amen.

He means during the Messiahs' reign, He puts His enemies under His control by reasoning with sinners by the gospel,

you, that were sometime alienated and enemies Col.1:21 KJV

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth...Eph.1:13 KJV

Amen.

Do you believe the judgement seat of Christ and the "GWTJ" are different? Scripture makes no distinction.

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Tim.4:1 KJV

we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Rom.4:10-12 KJV

The judgement seat of Christ and the GWTJ are probably occuring at the same times.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[journeyman]

The Day of the Lord and the day of Christ aren't the same things, but they occur within close proximity because God brings Jesus back.

According to reformed theology they're 1000 literal years apart. That Isn't close proximity. But according to how I'm seeing it, they are in close proximity, because the "thousand years reign" occurs in a spiritual sense. He reigns (Him + His body the church) for a thousans years,

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousandyears, and a thousand years are like a day. 2Pet.3:8 NIV

Peters' point is that "a thousand years can be an unspecified amount of time in human years. Not to man, but to God. So try reading a thousand years as an unspecified amound of time.

The first couple of verses of 2 Thessalonians 2 show that the gathering to Christ isn't the same thing as the day of the Lord, but 1 Thessalonians 4:14,15 show that God brings Jesus back and that the gathering to Jesus is not the day of the Lord, characterized by fire.

1 Thessalonians 4​

14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.​

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.​

The angels not only gather the elect, but also gather the wicked and put them in fire.

I understand this. Now please understand the time to enter His Eternal Kingdom is now, because in what state people are when He comes is the way they face judgement,

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev.22:11 KJV

Matthew 13​

49So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

Yes and please remember unrepentant sin is what really separated sinners from God and Jesus came to show He would have forgiven anyone of His murderers if they repented.
Do you understand the real separation has been going on all along. It's simply manifested at the end how Gods' word was true from beginning to end.

 

[journeyman]

Amen.

You're saying amen? Then explain how "Jesus becomes something He already is."

Amen.

Amen? Amen that sinners have been realizing who the real King is for centuries.
Millions have bowed to His rule over them.
Think of the "thousand years reign that way, now look at your next statement,

The judgement seat of Christ and the GWTJ are probably occuring at the same times.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

They are occuring at the same time. They're just using different symbols that describe the same event.

 

[Runningman]

According to reformed theology they're 1000 literal years apart. That Isn't close proximity. But according to how I'm seeing it, they are in close proximity, because the "thousand years reign" occurs in a spiritual sense. He reigns (Him + His body the church) for a thousans years,

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousandyears, and a thousand years are like a day. 2Pet.3:8 NIV

Peters' point is that "a thousand years can be an unspecified amount of time in human years. Not to man, but to God. So try reading a thousand years as an unspecified amound of time.

I understand this. Now please understand the time to enter His Eternal Kingdom is now, because in what state people are when He comes is the way they face judgement,

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev.22:11 KJV


Yes and please remember unrepentant sin is what really separated sinners from God and Jesus came to show He would have forgiven anyone of His murderers if they repented.
Do you understand the real separation has been going on all along. It's simply manifested at the end how Gods' word was true from beginning to end.

I don't sympathize with Reformed theology, but I believe that God brings Jesus back according to 1 Thess. 4:14,15, but I also supplement with this the fact that when Jesus was taken to heaven in a cloud and is said that he will return the same way in Acts 1:9-11. With frequency, it is said that Jesus will return either "on the clouds" or "among the clouds" or some variation of those words. I don't think those are necessarily literal clouds, though I have no doubt there can be clouds in the sky, but that the "clouds" will appear as clouds from a distance, but actually just visually look like clouds of an uncountable number of angels, coming back with Jesus and God.

I do take Matthew 24:30-41 as a description of the return of the Son of Man and also the day of the Lord that soon follows. Where I part with Reformed theology on this is the timing of when it happens, but I do agree it will happen.

 

[Runningman]

You're saying amen? Then explain how "Jesus becomes something He already is."

He became something when he came to be.

Amen? Amen that sinners have been realizing who the real King is for centuries.
Millions have bowed to His rule over them.
Think of the "thousand years reign that way, now look at your next statement,

They'll either be made Jesus' footstool by God or they will be destroyed until there are no enemies left.

They are occuring at the same time. They're just using different symbols that describe the same event.

Do you see Matthew 25:31-46 as a description of the Judgment seat of Christ, the GWTJ, or both?

 

[journeyman]

I don't sympathize with Reformed theology, but I believe that God brings Jesus back according to 1 Thess. 4:14,15, but I also supplement with this the fact that when Jesus was taken to heaven in a cloud and is said that he will return the same way in Acts 1:9-11. With frequency, it is said that Jesus will return either "on the clouds" or "among the clouds" or some variation of those words. I don't think those are necessarily literal clouds, though I have no doubt there can be clouds in the tsky, but that the "clouds" will appear as clouds from a distance, but actually just visually look like clouds of an uncountable number of angels, coming back with Jesus and God.

I do take Matthew 24:30-41 as a description of the return of the Son of Man and also the day of the Lord that soon follows. Where I part with Reformed theology on this is the timing of when it happens, but I do agree it will happen.

I believe reformed theology has butchered the gospel mainly by misunderstanding Pauls' teaching on what the law says.

Coming in "clouds" can easily mean obscure. He's coming here, but it's not quite clear. Especially Mt.24. Our Savior said "after those days" the sun would go dark and the moon be truned to blood and then His sign appears. Peter quoted part of this in Act.2 as being a current reality.

If we would only interpret "cloudiness" as "obsecured by His Spirit", everything falls into place.

 

[journeyman]

He became something when he came to be.

To us He did. Not to Himself. You have to remember this principle or scripture is incomprehensible. Just as an example,

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reignfor ever and ever. Rev.11:15 KJV

Scripture plainly teaches creation has always belonged to God and been under His complete control and always will be, so this passage cannot mean they wern't His all the time.
That passage can mean there was a point when they ( the redeemed who are speaking) didn't know that the universe belongs to God, but they became aware of it. In other words, the kingdoms "became the Lords'.....(to us.)
They are simply seeing Him the right way.

They'll either be made Jesus' footstool by God or they will be destroyed until there are no enemies left.

There is no later when He comes in fire.

Do you see Matthew 25:31-46 as a description of the Judgment seat of Christ, the GWTJ, or both?

No doubt both.