once saved always saved

[Eugene]

A lot of talking... from both camps. But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, IF you did reach a point (say,,, after five or six of your children were killed in a two year period, or something like that) where you just threw up your hands, and swore to have no more to do with God....... Would He STILL make you come to Heaven to spend Eternity with Him?

Job belonged to God. Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

We may say and do anything in the trial of our faith even as Peter did in denying knowing Jesus, but later God's work in Job made him say in Job 23:10, But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

What occurred prior to God getting through to Job?
Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

 

[Jeff Freeman]

Being in Christ, I do believe we are the children of God, and remain so once we have believed, I wrote the following at this URL link.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

then you are saying that once we are saved we no longer have any way of not becoming unsaved.can you still commit the unforgivable sin once you are saved?do you still have the choice to reject your salvation once you are saved?

 

[Rick W]

Again this is a good example of what ReginaForbes described as complicating things.

Too often in scripture we want to read into it an either or, one way or the other. But scripture doesn't always read as we prefer. Therein lies the root to other controversial passages that seem to contradict each other.

I see it as both. There are those who really have or had no choice in the matter. Did Paul have a choice or could he have really turned his back on Christ? I don't think so. Same goes for all those that Christ chose to follow Him, going to each one, to spread the Gospel.

Oftentimes the Gospel is likened to a wedding. There are those who must attend. I would think the preacher needs to be there, the bride and groom of course and those who will participate in the ceremony. Then there are the guests who are invited. The key word here is "invited". They can decide to go but when the time comes something changed and they don't show.

When scripture appears to support both views it's very possible that's exactly what's going on. Both are correct not being a case of either/or. But we prefer this to be this and that to be that when it's not what we prefer but rather what we should be doing instead... looking to reconcile the scripture that appears to be at odds. And of course those who wish to discredit scripture will avidly point out those "glaring" contradictions for they have no motivation, no desire for reconciliation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see it as both. There are those who really have or had no choice in the matter. Did Paul have a choice or could he have really turned his back on Christ? I don't think so. Same goes for all those that Christ chose to follow Him, going to each one, to spread the Gospel.

Oftentimes the Gospel is likened to a wedding. There are those who must attend. I would think the preacher needs to be there, the bride and groom of course and those who will participate in the ceremony. Then there are the guests who are invited. The key word here is "invited". They can decide to go but when the time comes something changed and they don't show.

I like your analogy of the wedding. But in my mind I've decided that Paul did have the choice. It's just that God knew ahead of time what choice he would make, just as Judas had the choice and God knew ahead of time what choice he would make in those circumstances and, thus, become the vessel through which he could accomplish his will.

 

[reba]

I like your analogy of the wedding. But in my mind I've decided that Paul did have the choice. It's just that God knew ahead of time what choice he would make, just as Judas had the choice and God knew ahead of time what choice he would make in those circumstances and, thus, become the vessel through which he could accomplish his will.

The Potter creates the vessel .. He does not pick one off the shelf...

 

[Rick W]

I like your analogy of the wedding. But in my mind I've decided that Paul did have the choice. It's just that God knew ahead of time what choice he would make, just as Judas had the choice and God knew ahead of time what choice he would make in those circumstances and, thus, become the vessel through which he could accomplish his will.

Same result.
And in both cases divine.

I believe one can be chosen not only for what we may term as an earth-shaking mission but also chosen for the small for could one not be chosen for the sole purpose of extending an invitation to one other individual? And Heaven rejoices.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Potter creates the vessel .. He does not pick one off the shelf...

But he knows what the fundamental quality of the clay/soil is when he does the creating. I'm making reference to the parable of the sower. It isn't that there is life in the soil in and of itself. It's a matter of whether or not the soil will, in and of itself, sustain life planted in it. Some will, some will not. I don't believe God builds that quality into the soil. It's something about us in particular. Nothing of virtue--just a fundamental potential to sustain life, or not sustain it.

 

[Rick W]

And Paul being of good soil could yield nothing less than what was planted. Here again I don't think Paul could have turned against Christ. Either way what eventually transpired would be the same.

 

[reba]

Isa_64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Lam_4:2 The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!

Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
This potter language is strong...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please understand, God doesn’t see you as a sinner after you get saved; He sees you as the righteousness of God. Your spirit, which is the real you, is recreated in holiness and is as pure as it will ever be. Therefore, when you miss the mark, you are not sinning with your spirit because your spirit cannot and does not ever participate in sin. It is your soul and body that partake of sin, not the spirit. So when you miss it, you are still just like Jesus within your spirit.

"1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. " (2 Corinthians 7:1 NASB)

1 John 3:9. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (Practice) sin; for his seed (Jesus) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (Our new Christ nature can't sin.)

Which is why we need to stay with what we started out with.

"24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you." (1 John 3:24 NASB)

You do see that the verse you quoted negates the argument that a person can practice sin and he will still be saved, right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
This potter language is strong...

It is strong, that's why this subject can be difficult.

Taking a lump of clay and forming it into something based on what you know the potential of the clay is does not mean the potter purposely made the clay itself that way--it is what it is. It means what he made out of the clay was on purpose.

"Why did you make me like this?"

"Because your clay ain't so good, that's why. I formed you into a bed pan because the clay that I know is good is being reserved for a more noble purpose"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And Paul being of good soil could yield nothing less than what was planted.

...when properly watered and weeded and fertilized. I agree.

The gardener gets the credit for planting what's there and for realizing the potential of the soil that the soil could not realize itself. But there still had to be a fundamental quality and potential for growth about the soil for that to happen. Some soil simply does not have that.

 

[eddif]

What makes your sins forgiven and their sins not?

So you asked the question. Now how many answers will you get?

I listen to a whole lot of answers all the time. A lot of times, it sounds like our favorite ceremony will get it done. Or perhaps it is several ceremonies. It often sounds like what we do. Some say it is what Jesus did, or belief in what he accomplished.

I tend to believe in what Jesus did.

Jesus gave a great commission. This great commission has a lot of information in it . It is even repeated in several books. When I get through expanding it; there is usually silence .

OSAS. I even have a version:
Once Salvation Always Salvation.
Even that hangs by a thread. Moses interceded for Israel in the wilderness. God said step back Moses and I will
Destroy them, and raise up a people from you. Moses pleaded for the people and god's good name . Jesus even now (seated on the right hand of the father intercedes for us ).

What are the aspects of salvation?
Gentiles can make decisions.
We are lost and undone in the world (without god), and bound for hell.

We repent. That does not save us. We
confess our sins and change direction of life. We still have to deal with the sins we just confessed . We just experienced John's Baptism (the Fathers Baptism). Oh we are on a straight path now, but headed where?
John said believe in the one who
Comes after me.

We hear the shed blood of Jesus brings eternal life. There is just one name under heaven whereby we may be saved. We call on his name for eternal life. We are just not empowered yet. Jesus said that he must go away that the Holy Spirit might come to be in us.

So we realize that we must have Holy Spirit in us. Boy i am glad Jewish people told us this. Holy Spirit filled Jewish people that taught us all things. Jewish people that said: believe in heart and mind , even confess The Lord Jesus.

At least three relationships:
Father - Repentance
Son -eternal life
Holy Spirit. - power

If we hate our brother we do not have those relationships. So ceremonies are great, but realities are needed.

Philippians 3:12
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

eddif

 

[Eugene]

then you are saying that once we are saved we no longer have any way of not becoming unsaved.can you still commit the unforgivable sin once you are saved?do you still have the choice to reject your salvation once you are saved?

I reckon that's what I'm saying. I've never read in the examples of the Old Testament or the New Testament even once of anyone jumping out of God's hand. All I would have to do is read that one person believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, afterwards regretted it and wanted to go to hell instead; our minds don't seem to function in that manner.

I have seen that Moses did not believe God, was told to not enter the promised land (Num 20:12), and go to mount Nebo and die as the result (Deut 32:49-50). Later we're told of him appearing with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration (Mat 17:3). Loss of reward; not lost as belonging to God.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Will non-belief, lack of faith, or even sin not confessed do it. Well, you end up in hell, complain to Jesus the very judge that died for, and purchased you with His blood poured out for you, and He says sorry, it's true you didn't do this or that, but you did that over there and I had to erase your name from the Book of Life huh? (Rev 3:5 ) Is there another qualification? (Rev 17:8) My understanding is that there is a sin unto death possible for the child of God, not a sin unto perdition.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There is a difference between "communion" with God and "union" with God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

1 John 5:13;
"These things I write to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life".

Throughout John's letter is a series of tests that determine if you have eternal life.
If you fail the tests, he tells you what you need to do to receive eternal life.
I believe John's letter is clarifying to us who is really saved and who isn't.

 

[th1b.taylor]

then you are saying that once we are saved we no longer have any way of not becoming unsaved.can you still commit the unforgivable sin once you are saved?do you still have the choice to reject your salvation once you are saved?

JF,
A study of James is called for in the answer to this one. If a person is saved they are saved unto Good Works, not evil. If a person is saved they cannot deny Jesus. Like my daughter when her husband passed over, a person can e angry with a decision of God, she ran down the street screaming at Fred and at God for the injustice she felt but she wasn't denying God the right, she was angry at the trial imposed. She has since fallen on her knees and repented of her anger and is teaching.

She never rebuked God of His right to do as He will but she was cut to the heart of the trial and needed time to adjust to living with her mon and dad again.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Again this is a good example of what ReginaForbes described as complicating things.

Too often in scripture we want to read into it an either or, one way or the other. But scripture doesn't always read as we prefer. Therein lies the root to other controversial passages that seem to contradict each other.

I see it as both. There are those who really have or had no choice in the matter. Did Paul have a choice or could he have really turned his back on Christ? I don't think so. Same goes for all those that Christ chose to follow Him, going to each one, to spread the Gospel.

Oftentimes the Gospel is likened to a wedding. There are those who must attend. I would think the preacher needs to be there, the bride and groom of course and those who will participate in the ceremony. Then there are the guests who are invited. The key word here is "invited". They can decide to go but when the time comes something changed and they don't show.

When scripture appears to support both views it's very possible that's exactly what's going on. Both are correct not being a case of either/or. But we prefer this to be this and that to be that when it's not what we prefer but rather what we should be doing instead... looking to reconcile the scripture that appears to be at odds. And of course those who wish to discredit scripture will avidly point out those "glaring" contradictions for they have no motivation, no desire for reconciliation.

Great explanation, wish I had said that.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The Potter creates the vessel .. He does not pick one off the shelf...

So often forgotten.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All I would have to do is read that one person believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, afterwards regretted it and wanted to go to hell instead; our minds don't seem to function in that manner.

Jesus doesn't name any names of the soil in the parable of the sower soil #2. I'm not prepared to call Jesus a liar and deceiver for saying there are those types of soil out there when there really aren't any and never will be.

I have seen that Moses did not believe God, was told to not enter the promised land (Num 20:12), and go to mount Nebo and die as the result (Deut 32:49-50).

I see where Moses had a bad hair day in the faith, not where he abandoned the faith and made tracks back to Egypt. This is the difference that so many people fail to acknowledge in this subject. There is weakness and doubt within the faith. Then there is the decision to bail out of the faith altogether.

Will non-belief, lack of faith, or even sin not confessed do it.

Unconfessed sin? Only if you have not grown to the point of accountability concerning that sin.

Lack of faith? Good Lord, no. If it did, we'd all be lost.

Non-belief? Of course. Trusting in Christ is the very condition for being saved. You can't show up to collect the lotto winnings if you don't hold on to the winning ticket (and surely no one would argue that you really did once have that ticket in your possession).

Well, you end up in hell, complain to Jesus the very judge that died for, and purchased you with His blood poured out for you, and He says sorry, it's true you didn't do this or that, but you did that over there and I had to erase your name from the Book of Life huh?

The REASON you didn't do this or that, and did that over there is why, or why not, you may show up at the Judgment minus the winning lotto ticket you once possessed. You don't lose it for struggling with the growing pains of the faith. You lose it for foolishly exiting the faith altogether, either through careless indifference for the free gift (like the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18) or outright contempt for God's forgiveness.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Where is unbelief in this list that so many claim is there?

As iLove pointed out in scripture--the man who is living in a lifestyle of sin is not born again. Yet so many make the claim that you can live that lifestyle and still think you're born again and will be saved on the Day of Wrath no matter what (if I could just think of that acronym for that again...).