Bible Study "Pastor" Office or Gift?

[Cornelius]

G2099
εὐαγγελιστής
euaggelistēs
yoo-ang-ghel-is-tace'
From G2097; a preacher of the gospel: - evangelist.

Surely these are they that go forth and preach the gospel to those who have not heard about Jesus. They can be found all over the world. We all must do this, but obviously God has given this also as a specific office in the Five Fold Ministry.

 

[Cornelius]

G4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.

A pastor is a shepherd. He is the guy who serves the flock. He tends to their needs, listens to their problems, encourages them . He is their servant. He prays with them and sees that the flock is healthy spiritually.

 

[Cornelius]

G1320
διδάσκαλος
didaskalos
did-as'-kal-os
From G1321; an instructor (generally or specifically): - doctor, master, teacher.

This elder, is anointed in teaching. He is enabled by God to understand the deep truths of the Word and he is also able to bring that knowledge and present it to God's elect. He understands the Word and his job is to bring the Word to the people so that they might grow up in the truth of Christ.

 

[Cornelius]

None of these can be looked upon as a career choice. There is no such thing. God is the only One who calls the five fold ministry. Man cannot choose it.

They are all men, and they are all elders. Elders are appointed (but not all elders are part of the five fold ministry )

Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge;
Tit 1:6 if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children that believe, who are not accused of riot or unruly.
Tit 1:7 For the bishop must be blameless, as God's steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 but given to hospitality, a lover of good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled;
Tit 1:9 holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict the gainsayers.

If he meets these standards, he can be appointed by another elder, in this case an apostle. The apostles have an overseers ministry that covers the church.

We see that some of the five fold ministry elders do indeed share some other gifts too. An apostle can teach and do the work of an evangelist : Timothy was an apostle too and yet Paul told him to do the work of an evangelist as well : 2Ti 4:5 But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry.


Paul operated in most of the five fold ministry himself. But his Office was that of an apostle.

 

[pjt]

G652
ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostleâ€), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

So is it impossible for God to still be sending people? Have we run out of ambassadors of the Gospel ?

Cornelius, I found all you wrote to be both interesting and informative. Thank you for taking the time to write all this, but can you elaborate on what you feel the role and duties of an apostle is? I mean I`ve never heard in my entire 41 years anyone claim to be an apostle or even know someone who claims to be one. But now that you point this out, I think it is a shame. Nevertheless, because I`ve never seen or known someone specifically claiming this "office" as their gift, I have a hard time imagining exactly what an ambassador of the Gospel would do. Ambassadors in the political sense are sent to foreign nations to try and maintain good relations with the other country on behalf of their own. But what about ambassadors/apostles for Christ?

 

[Cornelius]

Cornelius, I found all you wrote to be both interesting and informative. Thank you for taking the time to write all this, but can you elaborate on what you feel the role and duties of an apostle is? I mean I`ve never heard in my entire 41 years anyone claim to be an apostle or even know someone who claims to be one. But now that you point this out, I think it is a shame. Nevertheless, because I`ve never seen or known someone specifically claiming this "office" as their gift, I have a hard time imagining exactly what an ambassador of the Gospel would do. Ambassadors in the political sense are sent to foreign nations to try and maintain good relations with the other country on behalf of their own. But what about ambassadors/apostles for Christ?

Hi

An apostle simply means "he who is sent"

First I must clarify that there are more than twelve apostles in the Bible. I think there maybe more than 20 mentioned Its the translators that throws us off, because they translated the same word in different ways.

I only know one and its somebody who has never called himself an apostle. He is a very humble person, not rich in worldly goods , but he is a walking Word of God. He is anointed and walk in miracles. Raised the dead and has been translated like Philip from the US to and East block country where he preached and then was transported back by the Spirit of God. He never asks for money when preaching the gospel. He has been to heaven twice and God called him to his ministry personally. Then confirmed the calling twice through prophets that came to him after God told them to do so. So he is not like many of the people we meet these days who have usurped the authority over God's people for personal gain.

The apostle's work can be seen in the book of Acts. They were the ones who walked in miracles, they were able to preach (evangelism) and teach (Teacher) plus they could prophesy. At this moment I cannot recall a case where they were the pastor ! but maybe I am wrong on that aspect.

The apostles ( even today ) are the foundation of the church. They have the pure doctrine on which we build.Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; (the prophets here, being the Old Testament writers) Our modern day apostles do not add anything new, nor can they. But they can open Scripture for us. Many think that we already know all there is to know, but that is not true. The Bible speaks of many mysteries and "hidden manna" in the Bible. Also a time is prophesied where the book will be opened that was locked.Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Admittedly the Teachers will also be able to unlock this when the time is here.

So the apostle is an interesting calling. God personally calls the apostle, and He is the one who sends the apostle. Paul is a good example. They are a good mix of the rest of the five fold ministry. I also think that they have the hardest time.

We cannot become an apostle unless we are called and sent.

 

[Nathan]

I agree it is a gift and each gift should be honored and respected by the body because the gift comes from God and is to be used for the glory of God and for the good of God`s people. Therefore, each member is valuable and should be regarded as valuable.

However, my question to you is you said you feel the pastor`s role is a protector and watcher but not necessarily a teacher, so I`m wondering what exactly do you think a pastor is supposed to do and how?

To answer your question, I do believe that the pastor has a 'teaching' role associated with it.

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,

In context we see that shepherds and teachers are linked. The "the" before each of the descriptions indicate they are specific.

The idea behind a pastor, better translated shepherd, is really self explanatory. Think about what a shepherd does for/with sheep. The teaching role is there, but not like what we see within the 'modern' church today. In fact, Peter is very detailed about how a shepherd, and elders in general, use their gift.

1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

1Pe 5:3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

Shepherds lead by example. They just simply go, and the sheep follow. But what we all to often see is the shepherd 'yelling' at the sheep to follow and trying to round them up like cattle. lol.

When a sheep gets 'lost', the shepherd goes after them. There is probably more said about the gifting of the shepherd than any other gift, yet it is the most abused.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, I agree that the Apostle is probably the most misunderstood gift there is.

I do believe some can be apostles today. But the confusion that surrounds the gift is what complicates it. Most people I hear say that the apostle is someone who was with Christ. And the reason why Paul could be classified is because he spent some time with Christ.

 

[Jake]

Yes, I agree that the Apostle is probably the most misunderstood gift there is.

I do believe some can be apostles today. But the confusion that surrounds the gift is what complicates it. Most people I hear say that the apostle is someone who was with Christ. And the reason why Paul could be classified is because he spent some time with Christ.

They are all misunderstood, that is why we see Pastors doing everything and supposively having all the gifts. Instead of seeking out people who have the other gifts, we just add more pastors.

 

[Nathan]

They are all misunderstood, that is why we see Pastors doing everything and supposively having all the gifts. Instead of seeking out people who have the other gifts, we just add more pastors.

Yes, this is what happens most of the time. I cannot say that it is not without merit though. I battle sometimes between wrong and right feelings about this subject.

I understand why the pastor has taken on so much responsibility. The shepherd would do the same if needed. The shepherd should not say, "its not my job, I am not going to do it". But at the same time the role of the pastor should be to watch over the sheep as they mature.

What we find is the sheep never maturing. I would think that if a pastor was taking care of a group of sheep for a long period of time, eventually he would wonder why they are not maturing and adjust his leading accordingly. But sometimes the 'over protection' of the shepherd is what causes the spiritual immaturity.

I see it in modern day life with kids and their parents. 30 something year olds still living at home. There is a 20 something year old guy I work with who's mother still packs his lunch. It almost seems like a joke, but its sad to me.

Maturity needs to happen. The writer of Hebrews was sickened at the fact that the readers were not maturing yet. Making the statement that they should be teachers themselves.

I think the role of pastor should be a goal to see a tangible difference in the life of each individual person within the group. The larger the group, the more shepherds are needed. The shepherd should have direct contact with his sheep. Instead, we see the hierarchic system in place that puts the shepherd up at the very top taking care of some sheep, then those sheep take care of a few more sheep, and then on down the line it goes.

Its kind of like the whole system we see set up with Moses when he led them out of Egypt. Except we are already out of Egypt when we are in Christ.

I just cannot find anyway around the fact that it is about power and control. Even though most pastors will argue till their blue in the face about that. But its true, because its evident in the manifestation of fruit that comes from their lives.

I actually have a great sympathy for a lot of pastors. They have been mislead tremendously in their role. But at the same time I believe if they would simply look to the Chief Shepherd, they would understand what they should be doing. But because of the flesh we tend to hold onto tradition.

 

[cyberjosh]

To answer your question, I do believe that the pastor has a 'teaching' role associated with it.

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,

In context we see that shepherds and teachers are linked. The "the" before each of the descriptions indicate they are specific.

Hi Nathan,

I'd just like to give a little bit of my input here, as I believe that this is also relevant to me in some degree (as I'll explain). The gift of preaching and teaching are two seperate gifts. However this does not preclude the possibility that one has both gifts. For example I firmly believe that God has given me the gift of teaching but not the gift of preaching. I have stood up and "preached" a few sermons before but it was only as one presenting a teaching and message impressed upon my heart to share. I however have not been given that calling and gift to fill the office of a preacher. I have consciously recognized several times when I hear a pastor give an excellent sermon that only a giftedness to present the message in the manner that they did enabled them to preach as they did and that it is a specific gift from God (one which I sometimes wish I had). And while I may be able to teach on the same subject I could not proclaim it in the same pastoral way that the preacher did (for which he had a unique giftedness to carry out that role).

I would say that one of the primary enablements of the gift of preaching is one of evangelism and of proclaiming the Gospel in word and in power. Of course we all are to evangelize in a way by drawing others to Christ and spreading the message of the Gospel to them, but pastors/preachers are specifically called as leaders in this regard to guide the flock. And also, of course, to some degree all pastors must teach the word (as we also should do), and proclaim its truths, but that is not the same as the gift of teaching. I have seen some pastors which only particularly have this gift of preaching (which is a God blessed gift). However where I have most often been profoundly impacted by one's ministry and greatly impressed is where a pastor also has the gift of teaching and it is often those pastors that can blow you away with the truth of God and proclaim it like no other. Charles Stanley (who was/is[?] president of the Southern Baptist Convention) has both gifts, I believe, as well as possibly John Piper. And aside from those more well-known pastors two of the three Churches that I have attended in the last five years (which mostly depends on which city I'm in on the weekends) have preacher-teachers, as I will call them. My dad and I always enjoy going to my grandparents' church when we go to visit them (I attended that church for 3 years until recently) because the preacher there is an awesome man of God and not only preaches to evangelize but also has a great ability to teach and lay out the doctrines of Scripture with clarity. He has done many deep-diving sermon series in both the OT and NT which clearly demonstrate that he has the gift of teaching the body of Christ. And his heart as a gracious pastor to present all teachings with love only deepens the profundity and applications of the teachings.

So anyway, I said all that to say that teaching and preaching are two seperate gifts. Some have only preaching, some have only teaching (myself), and some (who have been amazingly blessed) have both.

So that's my (not quite) two-words-in on the matter.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

Thanks for your thoughts Josh.

Please do not take this the wrong way, ( Never sounds good when you start off that way huh?) the way you describe most 'pastors' is really the norm as far as what we have been conditioned to believe the gift of the pastor is.

However, when I look at the NT I simply do not find it that way. I cannot seem to pinpoint the function of a pastor down to the way we have now days. I am NOT saying that it cannot be so, but what does that say about the 'body' if one part is fulfilling so many roles? Shouldn't it be a signal to the other parts of the body that they need to start functioning?

 

[handy]

Nathan, you had said once before that you see the pastor as the shepherd and protector of the flock...how do you see that working out in real life and not in symbolic terms.

What does it mean, in 21st century language that the pastor is the shepherd and protector?

And, how does he accomplish this task without teaching and preaching?

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks for your thoughts Josh.

Please do not take this the wrong way, ( Never sounds good when you start off that way huh?) the way you describe most 'pastors' is really the norm as far as what we have been conditioned to believe the gift of the pastor is.

However, when I look at the NT I simply do not find it that way. I cannot seem to pinpoint the function of a pastor down to the way we have now days. I am NOT saying that it cannot be so, but what does that say about the 'body' if one part is fulfilling so many roles? Shouldn't it be a signal to the other parts of the body that they need to start functioning?

Anyone can claim to be a pastor, and I'm sure some fill the position without having the gift of preaching (which means they missed God's calling at some point - and shouldn't be in the pulpit). Also though, we must also recognize that a missionary that travels abroad can also have the gift of preaching. Our Church has missionaries in Moldova. They may not occupy a pulpit, but some may have the gift of preaching to share the gospel abroad as a missionary in Moldova and elsewhere. Paul in a sense was a missionary. And though his 'office' was Apostle he certainly had the gift of preaching.

My point though is that, regardless of how it appears to play out in our society, the gifts and offices of teacher and preacher are most certainly distinct in Scripture. I am sure of that. And as I said, I believe that I have the gift of teaching, but do not have the gift and calling of preaching. They are separate. But I grant the observation on your part of some appearance of overlap, which I tried to elaborate on in the last post.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

However, when I look at the NT I simply do not find it that way. I cannot seem to pinpoint the function of a pastor down to the way we have now days. I am NOT saying that it cannot be so, but what does that say about the 'body' if one part is fulfilling so many roles? Shouldn't it be a signal to the other parts of the body that they need to start functioning?

I sense, on a secondary note, that you may be thinking that the office of 'pastor' was invented? Or are you saying something else? Paul stayed with the Corinthians over a year and half and pastored them, but he always admonished them to perform good works of their own. And I guarantee that Paul wasn't there to tickle their ears. And to the Thessalonians he encouraged them to be studious and industrious in the work of their hands, and not to be idle, because (as he famously said) if a man does not work he shall not eat. The body of Christ can function even in non-"churchy" settings and deeds, such as in daily work/chores.

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, you had said once before that you see the pastor as the shepherd and protector of the flock...how do you see that working out in real life and not in symbolic terms.

What does it mean, in 21st century language that the pastor is the shepherd and protector?

And, how does he accomplish this task without teaching and preaching?

Ah, the million dollar question.

I would explain it in 21st century language like this;

The Pastor(shepherd) is a very specific gifting. There are two distinct faucets of manifestation of the gift. A corporate showing in the "flock", and an individual showing in the "sheep". But both are characterized by the intense desire for the wellbeing of each and everyone.

It shows itself in the life of each and EVERY individual person that he has been given to watch over. The Pastor knows each and everyone of his flock personally. When even one single individual seems to be 'falling' behind, he personally makes sure they are brought back to the group. Each one is cared for exactly like the rest, except in the arena of the individual personality.

Corporately, in the flock, it shows itself by making sure adequate nourishment is available to all. He looks out for the safety of the group. Protection is a priority for the pastor, understanding that sometimes the sheep will hurt each other, but more importantly looking out for the dangers that lurk beyond the flocks understanding.

The gift of Shepherding is distinguished from the gift of teaching in that the gift of teaching is about right and wrong above all else. But at the same time the gift of Pastor is inseparable from that of a teacher in the way that he leads the flock purely by example, neglecting his needs in care for theirs. The gift of teaching focuses on the instruction, the gift of pastor focuses on the one's being instructed.

 

[Nathan]

The gift of pastor has been taken to the level of filling quite a few other gifts within it. A person might think that it is absurd that the pastor takes care of EACH individual within his care. And it would be, if we held to the idea that only a few are called to be shepherds within a large flock.

But the simple truth is that the pastor should have many other pastors beside him when we are talking about large groups. He cannot be a true pastor by delegating his pastor roles out to people who do not have it. This is what happens most of the time.

What we see in modern culture is that the gift of pastoring may very well be given to an individual, but their strong suit is something else. So they 'naturally' do what God has gifted them to do, and the flock suffers because of it. Why? Because they are stuck on the 'title' of pastor. The pastor "runs" the show. He is the "head" guy. All the rest are simply "elders". But those "elders" have gifts also, some being pastor.

Its like I said. I actually feel burdened for the true men of God who have the gift of pastoring. Because they have this gift they know what they should be doing, and at the same time they have been 'taught'(not by people with the gift of teaching obviously), that they have many more responsibilities to fulfill inside their 'position'. Its our own human nature that pulls us into the mindset that 'someone' has to be 'in charge'. When all along God is calling out saying "let Me!". But just like Israel demanded a king, so we too demand people to rule over us.

Deep down inside I believe we all know our gifts. But it can be very confusing when 'tradition' teaches us they are something else. So then we are torn between doing what seems natural, and doing what we have always done, which also seems natural. I really think this is what we are seeing in the 'Church' today.

 

[Nathan]

Anyone can claim to be a pastor, and I'm sure some fill the position without having the gift of preaching (which means they missed God's calling at some point - and shouldn't be in the pulpit). Also though, we must also recognize that a missionary that travels abroad can also have the gift of preaching. Our Church has missionaries in Moldova. They may not occupy a pulpit, but some may have the gift of preaching to share the gospel abroad as a missionary in Moldova and elsewhere. Paul in a sense was a missionary. And though his 'office' was Apostle he certainly had the gift of preaching.

My point though is that, regardless of how it appears to play out in our society, the gifts and offices of teacher and preacher are most certainly distinct in Scripture. I am sure of that. And as I said, I believe that I have the gift of teaching, but do not have the gift and calling of preaching. They are separate. But I grant the observation on your part of some appearance of overlap, which I tried to elaborate on in the last post.

God Bless,

~Josh

I would have to respectfully disagree with you here. Pastoring and preaching are two separate gifts. Someone can have the gift of pastoring without being a resounding orator. Pastoring is manual labor, preaching is vocal labor.

 

[Nathan]

I sense, on a secondary note, that you may be thinking that the office of 'pastor' was invented? Or are you saying something else? Paul stayed with the Corinthians over a year and half and pastored them, but he always admonished them to perform good works of their own. And I guarantee that Paul wasn't there to tickle their ears. And to the Thessalonians he encouraged them to be studious and industrious in the work of their hands, and not to be idle, because (as he famously said) if a man does not work he shall not eat. The body of Christ can function even in non-"churchy" settings and deeds, such as in daily work/chores.

~Josh

I would have to study this some more in depth, but at first thought I would have to disagree that Paul "pastored" the Corinthians. Yes, I believe the "office" of Pastor was man made. But the gift of pastor is God made. What we see Paul doing is not pastoring. Teaching, yes. Evangelizing, sometimes. Apostleizing(I made up that word ), always!

 

[pjt]

Yes, this is what happens most of the time. I cannot say that it is not without merit though. I battle sometimes between wrong and right feelings about this subject.

I understand why the pastor has taken on so much responsibility. The shepherd would do the same if needed. The shepherd should not say, "its not my job, I am not going to do it". But at the same time the role of the pastor should be to watch over the sheep as they mature.

What we find is the sheep never maturing. I would think that if a pastor was taking care of a group of sheep for a long period of time, eventually he would wonder why they are not maturing and adjust his leading accordingly. But sometimes the 'over protection' of the shepherd is what causes the spiritual immaturity.

I see it in modern day life with kids and their parents. 30 something year olds still living at home. There is a 20 something year old guy I work with who's mother still packs his lunch. It almost seems like a joke, but its sad to me.

Maturity needs to happen. The writer of Hebrews was sickened at the fact that the readers were not maturing yet. Making the statement that they should be teachers themselves.

I think the role of pastor should be a goal to see a tangible difference in the life of each individual person within the group. The larger the group, the more shepherds are needed. The shepherd should have direct contact with his sheep. Instead, we see the hierarchic system in place that puts the shepherd up at the very top taking care of some sheep, then those sheep take care of a few more sheep, and then on down the line it goes.

Its kind of like the whole system we see set up with Moses when he led them out of Egypt. Except we are already out of Egypt when we are in Christ.

I just cannot find anyway around the fact that it is about power and control. Even though most pastors will argue till their blue in the face about that. But its true, because its evident in the manifestation of fruit that comes from their lives.

I actually have a great sympathy for a lot of pastors. They have been mislead tremendously in their role. But at the same time I believe if they would simply look to the Chief Shepherd, they would understand what they should be doing. But because of the flesh we tend to hold onto tradition.

I can agree there are cases where it is about power and control. I have a very good friend that was raised in a controlling, authoritarian home so all the churches she was drawn to happened to be ones with controlling pastors and she even ended up in one church that I would call a cult not because of the teachings. The teachings were Biblical but the pastor took literal control over everyone`s lives and reduced adult men and women to coloring in coloring books as their only form of entertainment. So I know from seeing the various churches she has been in, that there are a number of control freak pastors out there unfortunately.

However, I think more than it being an issue of power and control when the pastor wears all the hats, I think it is more an issue of salary and custom. If a pastor does not take on all these gifts plus being a business administrator to run a church, then no one would feel justified to providing him a salary because all the work would be evenly distributed throughout the body. Everyone would be contributing therefore it would be unfair for one person to be singled out and paid, but the way tradition and seminaries set it up, the pastor does all the work, therefore he gets the salary which is fair since he is doing the work. But of course one has to consider is this really they way God designed the church to be.