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Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches

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Solo

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Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
Tuesday, July 10, 2007

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy  For the second time in a week, Pope Benedict XVI has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and saying other Christian communities were either defective or not true churches.

Benedict approved a document released Tuesday from his old office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which repeated church teaching on Catholic relations with other Christians.

While there was nothing doctrinally new in the document, it nevertheless prompted swift criticism from Protestants, Lutherans and other Christian denominations spawned by the 16th century reformation.

"It makes us question the seriousness with which the Roman Catholic Church takes its dialogues with the Reformed family and other families of the church," said the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, which groups 75 million Reformed Christians in 214 churches in 107 countries.

"It makes us question whether we are indeed praying together for Christian unity," the alliance said in a letter to the Vatican's key ecumenical official, Cardinal Walter Kasper, charging that the document took ecumenical dialogue back to the pre-Vatican II era.

One of the key developments from Vatican II, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church, was its ecumenical outreach.

Another key change was the development of the New Mass in the vernacular, which essentially replaced the old Latin Mass. On Saturday, Benedict revived the old Latin Mass, saying it was wrong for bishops to deny it to the faithful because it had never been abolished. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.

Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said it was issuing the new document on ecumenism because some contemporary theological interpretations of Vatican II's ecumenical intent had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.

The new document -- formulated as five questions and answers -- restates key sections of a 2000 text the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which riled Protestant, Lutheran and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one Church," said the document released as the pope vacations at a villa in Lorenzago di Cadore, in Italy's Dolomite mountains.

The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession -- the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles -- and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid, it said.

The Rev. Sara MacVane, of the Anglican Centre in Rome, said there was nothing new in the document.

"I don't know what motivated it at this time," she said. "But it's important always to point out that there's the official position and there's the huge amount of friendship and fellowship and worshipping together that goes on at all levels, certainly between Anglican and Catholics and all the other groups and Catholics."

The document said Orthodox churches were indeed "churches" because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed "many elements of sanctification and of truth." But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope -- a defect, or a "wound" that harmed them, it said.

"This is obviously not compatible with the doctrine of Primacy which, according to the Catholic faith, is an 'internal constitutive principle' of the very existence of a particular Church," said a commentary from the congregation which accompanied the text.

Despite the harsh tone of the documents, they stressed that Benedict remains committed to ecumenical dialogue.

"However, if such dialogue is to be truly constructive it must involve not just the mutual openness of the participants but also fidelity to the identity of the Catholic faith," the commentary said.

The top Protestant cleric in Benedict's homeland, Germany, complained that the Vatican apparently did not consider that "mutual respect for the church status" was required for any ecumenical progress.

In a statement headlined "Lost Chance," Lutheran Bishop Wolfgang Huber argued that "it would also be completely sufficient if it were to be said that the reforming churches are 'not churches in the sense required here' or that they are 'churches of another type' -- but none of these bridges is used in the 'answers."'

The document, signed by the congregation prefect, American Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Saints Peter and Paul -- a major ecumenical feast day.

There was no indication why the pope felt it necessary to release the document, particularly since his 2000 document summed up the same principles. Some analysts suggested it could be a question of internal church politics, or that the Congregation was sending a message to certain theologians it did not want to single out. Or, it could be an indication of Benedict using his office as pope to again stress key doctrinal issues from his time at the Congregation.

In fact, the only theologian cited by name in the document for having spawned erroneous interpretations of ecumenism was Leonardo Boff, the Brazilian who was a target of the former Cardinal Ratzinger's crackdown on liberation theology in the 1980s.

Retrieved from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288841,00.html
 
Oh, the offense of it all. After being called the whore of babylon and the woman the rides the beast all these years protestants grouse because we say they have some errant theology. Considering that they do not claim infalliblity and they have conflicting doctrines, you would think they would agree.

As for the Catholic Church haiving the fullness of the truth, a statement of fact is not arrogant.
 
I don't feel offended by the Pope restating something that was always a part of His denomination. I think it's probably more consistent with their teaching, and that they should probably hold their members to it.

A validation of my salvation through any denomination is not needed at all, but in some cases it would be hypocritical. I do not believe that the Catholic church is the only way, I believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and so by validating me they go against their own teaching.

Jesus is my head, and then my husband, not the Pope. In that day, if Christ says, "depart from me I never knew you..." only then will I feel dismissed, and grieved that I am not part of His church. The Pope doesn't have the power to make me feel that, or to make it true.

The Lord bless you.
 
thessalonian said:
Oh, the offense of it all. After being called the whore of babylon and the woman the rides the beast all these years protestants grouse because we say they have some errant theology. Considering that they do not claim infalliblity and they have conflicting doctrines, you would think they would agree.

As for the Catholic Church haiving the fullness of the truth, a statement of fact is not arrogant.

I am not at all offended. In fact I am happy at the statement. Way too may evangelly fish want to ignore distinctions between Romanist Catholic Theology and the gospel. PromiseKeepers have for years tried to blend the true gospel and the gospel of Rome. Maybe these evangelly fish will see that Romes Gospel is truely another gospel (Galatians 1:8-9).
 

Thought you were going to leave behind the derogatory terms.

My hope is that in dialoguing about this statement many protestants will come to an understanding of the fullness of the truth, which is the Catholic faith. Those who are hard toward it like you will remain so.
 
lovely said:
A validation of my salvation through any denomination is not needed at all, but in some cases it would be hypocritical. I do not believe that the Catholic church is the only way, I believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and so by validating me they go against their own teaching.

Fist of all if you read the statement in it's entirity and understand it, it does not make a statement about the salvation of non-catholics. Second of all, there is only one way and that is Jesus. The statement is not contrary to this as the Church which is the pillar and support of the truth cannot be contrary to Christ. Truth is what sets men free and the document does say there is truth and sanctification in protestant communities. But error is not without consequence either and all protestant communities have some. Of that there can be no doudt.

Jesus is my head, and then my husband, not the Pope. In that day, if Christ says, "depart from me I never knew you..." only then will I feel dismissed, and grieved that I am not part of His church. The Pope doesn't have the power to make me feel that, or to make it true.

More dichotomies. It's Jesus or... Don't you understand that God works through his Church that he set up. Christ is the light of the world but so are Christians. Prophets and apostles are the foundation as well as Christ. Peter can be the rock and Christ. There can be a visible head whom Christ works through and this is not contrary to Christ being the head. Christ is the groom. We do not deny this but he said he would build one church. Not many.
 
Solo said:
Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
Tuesday, July 10, 2007

Solo,

This is a matter of ecclesialogy, not of restricting Christians of different denominations from entering the Kingdom. As we have discussed, and the pope has not overturned, the Catholic Church does not exclude the "ecclesiastically separated but united in Christ" Christian.

The Pope's statement merely is in realm of ecclesiology, the visible Church, not about restricting Protestants of good faith from entering heaven.

Regards
 
thessalonian said:
My hope is that in dialoguing about this statement many protestants will come to an understanding of the fullness of the truth, which is the Catholic faith. Those who are hard toward it like you will remain so.

Dialogue is always fine. Although inquisitions make me a little nervous. Hopefully in dialogue those involved in the faith of Rome will see the error of their doctrines. Of course those who are hardened in such errors such as you, will surely remain so.
 
The popes statement will be meaningless in the scope of history. Rome always finds wiggle room in all its statements. Future eccumentical generations will undoubtable say that the popes statement is not "ex cathedra" and therefore it is not infallible.

It is interesting how Rome often levels charges against protestants for disunity, but even within the Vatican, and also among all those who bow to Rome there are differences of opinion over this proclaimation. Is this what Rome calls "unity?" I suspect there will be a lot more sophistry coming from Rome over these statements.
 
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
Tuesday, July 10, 2007

Solo,

This is a matter of ecclesialogy, not of restricting Christians of different denominations from entering the Kingdom. As we have discussed, and the pope has not overturned, the Catholic Church does not exclude the "ecclesiastically separated but united in Christ" Christian.

The Pope's statement merely is in realm of ecclesiology, the visible Church, not about restricting Protestants of good faith from entering heaven.

Regards

And here I thought that it was God who decided who entered into Heaven!

[/sarcasm]
 
Thess,

Thanks for your correction on the matter of salvation. You are correct, I understand it to be that the Pope is saying that since I am not part of the Only Church, then I am not saved. The Orthodox are wounded, but I am somehow outside the Church...the seems like he is saying that I am not saved, because I am not part of the same foundational line in his opinion. Maybe you can elaborate more to help me understand better, but at this point this is my understanding. Maybe the misunderstanding lies in how we define the True Church. In my mind, one who is outside the Church is in a state of unbelief.

I do believe that God works through His Church, and I believe that all believers are a light, not just Catholics. This is why I am able to obey Christ and share the Gospel. I do not believe the Catholic denomination is the only light, and I do not believe their denomination to be the only way to the Way. Jesus is the gate, and I have not climbed in by some other means. I believe that the true church of God exists outside of the framework of a denomination, or a building. It's made up of all True believers, and it's body is headed by Christ. Do Catholics believe this at all?

I know that we will not very much agreement on this matter, but I really would like you to explain the position on salvation more clearly...I leave you to do that if you would, and to have the last word on any other points you desire to address concerning this matter. The Lord bless you.
 
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy  For the second time in a week, Pope Benedict XVI has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and saying other Christian communities were either defective or not true churches.
Cardinal Walter Kasper, charging that the document took ecumenical dialogue back to the pre-Vatican II era.
It appears we have two separate views on what happened at Vatican 2. The pope says Vatican 2 changed nothing, but Cardinal Walter Kasper seems to be suggesting that it changed the status of eccumenticalism. Above are two distinct views of Vatican 2, one by the pope and one by a cardinal. Rome has declared the ministerium infallible, but who is the infallible interpreter of the ministerium? Even thought Rome declares its own ministerium infallible it does not seem to solve the problem of infallibility.
 
And here I thought that it was God who decided who entered into Heaven!

That's exactly what the Church teaches, this is why she never proclaims that someone is in hell. We can never know someone's conscience and state of grace at the moment of death, only God does.

Thanks for your correction on the matter of salvation. You are correct, I understand it to be that the Pope is saying that since I am not part of the Only Church, then I am not saved. The Orthodox are wounded, but I am somehow outside the Church...the seems like he is saying that I am not saved, because I am not part of the same foundational line in his opinion. Maybe you can elaborate more to help me understand better, but at this point this is my understanding. Maybe the misunderstanding lies in how we define the True Church. In my mind, one who is outside the Church is in a state of unbelief.

I do believe that God works through His Church, and I believe that all believers are a light, not just Catholics. This is why I am able to obey Christ and share the Gospel. I do not believe the Catholic denomination is the only light, and I do not believe their denomination to be the only way to the Way. Jesus is the gate, and I have not climbed in by some other means. I believe that the true church of God exists outside of the framework of a denomination, or a building. It's made up of all True believers, and it's body is headed by Christ. Do Catholics believe this at all?

Lovely,

The Pope would never say that you are not saved. As Thess mentioned, all salvation flows through Christ Jesus. The Catholic Church considers itself to possess the "fullness of Truth". This means that the Catholic Church is the most complete and authentic expression of Christian revelation and the most visible sign of the Presence of Christ on earth. This also means that any Protestant denomination is lacking, in some area or another, the fullness of Truth. However, this does not mean that it does not possess truth in various shades or gradations.

All believers, regardless of denomination, are united in the comission to share the gospel and all act as a certain light for the salvation of the world. The Catholic Church would consider itself a kind of purer light within the bounds of which salvation is most surely secured.

Protestantism, it is taught, actively maintains a fracture in the Body of Christ, in the communion of the faithful. The deviance from the fullness of the faith brings in shades of ambiguity and uncertainty in matters of salvation. As for the salvation of any given individual Protestant, it is not in the authority of the Pope to declare one way or another. It only teaches that the Protestant would be on more certain ground if he or she returned to the faith of the Church.
 
lovely said:
Thess,

Thanks for your correction on the matter of salvation. You are correct, I understand it to be that the Pope is saying that since I am not part of the Only Church, then I am not saved. The Orthodox are wounded, but I am somehow outside the Church...the seems like he is saying that I am not saved, because I am not part of the same foundational line in his opinion. Maybe you can elaborate more to help me understand better, but at this point this is my understanding. Maybe the misunderstanding lies in how we define the True Church. In my mind, one who is outside the Church is in a state of unbelief.

I do believe that God works through His Church, and I believe that all believers are a light, not just Catholics. This is why I am able to obey Christ and share the Gospel. I do not believe the Catholic denomination is the only light, and I do not believe their denomination to be the only way to the Way. Jesus is the gate, and I have not climbed in by some other means. I believe that the true church of God exists outside of the framework of a denomination, or a building. It's made up of all True believers, and it's body is headed by Christ. Do Catholics believe this at all?

I know that we will not very much agreement on this matter, but I really would like you to explain the position on salvation more clearly...I leave you to do that if you would, and to have the last word on any other points you desire to address concerning this matter. The Lord bless you.


Actually in a funny sense the document could be viewed as somewhat in agreement with a statement you made above that your salvation is not tied to a denomination. (it is tied to the Catholic Church which really is not a denomination). The document is speaking about churches and ecclesiastical communites rather than individuals. Let me quote a key peice in this regard.

"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] "

Sanctification depends on truth. There would be no point in talking about sanctification if salvation were not possible in protestant churches because sanctification is not possible unless one is in grace. Down a bit more the document says:

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].

Once again he does say that they are instruments of salvation, all be it lacking in the great help of some of the sacraments such as the Eucharist. The inital post of this thread has clearly misrepresented the document. You can read it straight from the Vatican's mouth right here if you like.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... es_en.html
 
thessalonian said:
Actually in a funny sense the document could be viewed as somewhat in agreement with a statement you made above that your salvation is not tied to a denomination. (it is tied to the Catholic Church which really is not a denomination). The document is speaking about churches and ecclesiastical communites rather than individuals. Let me quote a key peice in this regard.

"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] "

Sanctification depends on truth. There would be no point in talking about sanctification if salvation were not possible in protestant churches because sanctification is not possible unless one is in grace. Down a bit more the document says:

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].

Once again he does say that they are instruments of salvation, all be it lacking in the great help of some of the sacraments such as the Eucharist. The inital post of this thread has clearly misrepresented the document. You can read it straight from the Vatican's mouth right here if you like.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... es_en.html

Ultimately - it really doesn't matter. My salvation, sancitification, justification, righteousness, is not dependant upon the Roman Catholic Church (a denomination) - it depends on the Work of Jesus Christ and God Almighty.

Not a fallable person dressed in 'fancy' clothes who will die!
 
AHIMSA and Thess,

Thanks to you both for explaining it more clearly, and for the link, Thess. I do understand it more clearly now, and I thank the two of you for that, but I still find myself in firm disagreement about the matter. I guess that's because I'm not part of the big 'C' Catholic Church, but rather the little 'c' catholic Church. :wink: The Lord bless you both.
 
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