pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[reba]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

I believe He will return in the flesh and stand on an earth

He already did there in luke ... and John remember He told Mary not tot touch Him then later told Thomas to touch Him....

I think it is a gas at how hard we try to figure this out... God has one sense of humor

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

well you didn't read the words of Jesus Christ HE says HIS return and our gathering is AFTER the tribulation not before, so why don't you post the verse that gives you the right to claim Jesus Christ comes pre trib even though HE says post trib? love to see that magic invisible verse.....waiting

No, you have seen em all, just as I have. You just see them differently.

*How do you see Jesus Christ saying His parousia and our gathering is after the tribulation differently ?

Logic of my interpretation still stands.

*that's what scares me, paul never says Jesus Christ parousia is before the trib, in fact paul warns Jesus Day matt 24:29-31 is NOT "at hand" and shall NOT come except the falling away 1st and revealing of satan to be worshiped and repeats the Lord is him who's parousia is AFTER the "working of satan" with all power, signs and lying wonders in 2 thess 2:1-12. why would someone think Christ Jesus is coming before the tribulation when HE says AFTER the trib He returns and then we are gathered?


A pre trib believer will not fall for false Christs that have dialog with us. We have no time for dialog with a false Christ that comes before the rapture. The rapture is IMMEDIATE and Has no time for explanations or deception.

*no Jesus Christ warns believers to take heed lest we be deceived, many shall come in His name claiming they are Him. If it wasn't something not to worry with Jesus wouldn't have warned us in matt 24:4-5 21-31,mark 13:5-6,19-28,luke 21:8 luke 21:19-29 or paul in 2 thess 2 or John in rev 19 that satan gathers his tares before the wheat are harvested.

satan wan't people to not pay attention and just fly away, God says HE's against them who teach HIS people to fly to save their souls. no matter how much pre tribbers think they can cut in line and fly away early Jesus Christ says in matt 13 the tares will be gathered FIRST then the wheat. Jesus Christ says in matt 24:4-5,mark 13,luke 21 21-31 false Christs come claiming to be Him and AFTER their tribulation HE comes and sends HIS angels to gather the elect.

personally I don't want to get in that "1st one taken line" for they get thrown into the fire with gnashing of teeth.



Before the rapture happens however, Believers that have fallen for mid trib or post trib are open to someone who looks like light and says they are light.

and the one who taught it to us isTHE LIGHT:
Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

I believe He will return in the flesh and stand on an earth

He already did there in luke ... and John remember He told Mary not tot touch Him then later told Thomas to touch Him....

I think it is a gas at how hard we try to figure this out... God has one sense of humor

Oh man!! We already did this once! Yes He did!

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

=gr8grace;833511] Here is a great old post, Originally Posted by thisnumbersdisconnected
And again, in the context of the rest of the Bible it can be shown that He absolutely was not talking about the last day of history, but of the church age.


* Jesus Christ says the harvest is at the end of the world in matt 13 , that's it for grace now it trial by fire (II pet 3 heavens and earth on fire)for those who didn't make it to learn the hard way during the millennium being taught truth while satan is bound




I'm sure you know the answer to that question but, 1 Coritnhians 15:50-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-10, among others. Those are the main verses. There is support throughout Scripture.


* sure in I cor 15 paul tells us we rise in spiritual bodies in our own order as flesh and blood can't enter the kingdom and we all change when the Lord comes at the Last trump as Jesus teaches in matt 24 mark 13 and luke 21.

I thess 4:13-14 paul explains the saved have hope for if we believe Christ rose (and we'd better) then even so do we rise and He'll bring us WITH HIM
(jude 1:14-15 the Lord comes with 10000s of His saints, TODAY you will be WITH Me in paradise, the graves opens and the bodies of the saints rose WITH HIM matt 27,rev 19 the armies in heaven follow Him.

we ALL who are alive and remain when Christ Jesus returns after the tribulation of false Christs will change (heavens & earth on fire,elements melt,2pt3,zech14)

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


who refused to worship satan will meet them in the AER=g109 breath g4151 spirit as in spiritual bodies as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

paul didn't use the word 3772g sky


II thess 2 paul's subject is the Lord's parousia and our gathering (the one he spoke of in I thess 4 quoting matt 24:30-31) paul warns us not to be shaken in mind as that Christ Jesus' parousia and our gathering is "at hand" for that day shall NOT come except the falling away first and satan be revealed to be worshiped and of course this would be as Jesus told us in matt 13 the tares (children of satan) would be gathered FIRST to be thrown into the fire with gnashing of teeth.

paul repeats in 8-9 the Lord is him who's parousia is after the working of satan and explains why many fall for the fly away 1st lie of satan.




Further,It amazes me that some folks continue to deny the event, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible

With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to "Catching Up Ready" to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things


* no I believe in the rapture/gathering/harvest I know Jesus Christ says :
a. nay to early harvest lest the wheat be uprooted with the tares
b.makes it clear the angels are the reapers
c.makes it clear the tares will be gathered first
d.tells us the harvest is at the end of the world
e. after the tribulation of false Christs claiming to be Him (called the working of satan by paul and pre trib rapture by others)


I don't believe in pre trib rapture as no verse in the bible documents such a claim


Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation." Jesus did say ...
Matthew 24 NASB

44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.


* Jesus DID tell believers we would be betrayed by family, beaten, delivered up to synagogues and death (the devil heb 2:14) and for us not to meditate what we will say for He through the Holy Spirit will give us what to say stumping even the gainsayers mark 13/luke 21.


* many are surprised when Jesus Christ comes after the tribulation because false Christs come claiming to be Him gathering them as whores of babylon in a great false delusion of fly away to heaven only to see the real Jesus Christ coming and they scream for the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the Son of God for they have been seduced into thinking Jesus had already come.

some seek death and can't find death because we ALL changed in a moment to spiritual bodies as the heavens and earth are on fire at this point and they realize we who refused to worship who they thought was God shine bright while they have no oil in their lamps (truth) they fornicated with satan and now the age of grace is over with and how many will cry Lord Lord didn't we cast out demons and lay hands on the sick and He says depart from me ye workers of iniquity I never knew thee. many blot themselves out of the book of life by satan worship



*no believers shouldn't refute the existence of what's called a pre trib rapture because Jesus Christ warns believers it's the coming of false Christs claiming to be Him

A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together. The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night.


* believers associate the Lord Jesus Christ's day as His return and our gathering after the false Christs /working of satan because post trib rapture is what Jesus teaches in matt 24:21-31. again Jesus says in matt 13 the tares are gathered 1st


*Do you believe articles are as important as the Lord's word's?

In 2 Peter 3:10-13, the "Day of the Lord" spoken of cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.


*peter said a Day with the Lord is as a 1000yrs

In Joel 2:11-20, the "Day of the Lord" includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezkiel 38 and 39 are more detailed parallels of the Joel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.


*how long will it take Jesus to speak and cut down all the armies of satan who gathered first around the mount to satan claiming to be God in a early event for tares

In John 12:48, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium -- yet another 1000 year gap.

* no same 1000yr Day of the Lord Jesus Christ

One of the best indications that most of the various "day" references are citing a general time period can be found here:
Hebrews 10NASB
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
There are myriad arguments against misunderstanding and denial of the prophesied Rapture, too numerous to go into detail here. But if one wants to understand how the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation, it is not hard to locate information on it. Rather than stamping feet and saying "It can't be," perhaps some should investigate beyond what their church is teaching them.[

* I wish someone would locate the verses of scripture and please post them that documents Jesus Christ parousia and our gathering is before the tribulation for Jesus Christ the Lord says in matt 24:21-31 HIS coming and our gathering is AFTER the tribulation of false Christs:


Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other




what makes one think how we believed Jesus was coming pre trib till we read the scriptures ourselves and realize paul never says Jesus comes before the tribulation as many claimed and how Jesus teaches a post trib rapture to Him returning to Jerusalem (zech14/rev14,acts 1). thanks for your post;)

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

1 Corinthians 15:43-44,50-55

King James Version (KJV)

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


we who are alive and remain change when the Lord returns into spiritual bodies joining them in the spirit g109 breath g4151 spirit paul didn't use the word g3772 sky. we believers will be gathered to Jesus in Jerusalem after the tribulation by His angels not flying up up and away before the trib but to Him after the trib matt 24:29-31, acts 1 rev 14, jude 1:14-15,rev 1:7,rev 19,mark 13,luke 21,2thess2, zech 14



50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


paul NEVER says this is pre trib but at the last trump which is the same timing Jesus teaches in matt 24:29-31 and fulfilled in rev 19:



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


*we all change because heaven and earth is on fire and the fowls of the earth eat ALL the flesh of men:see rev 19 below




53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


*flesh changes to spirit and our mortal souls become immortal by Jesus Christ



54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


when Jesus Christ returns not all will be immortal, many immortal spirits will still be in danger of the 2nd death if they gather to satan the last and final time rev 20
to eternal death/blot by fire and then is death defeated finally.






Revelation 19:17-21

King James Version (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.




19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] , is there a scripture that says Jesus will actually be physically on this earth again? I can't find one. Help please.

Acts 1:10-12King James Version (KJV)

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.


Zechariah 14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. *rev 19

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.








Revelation 14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Thanks, I will reread these scriptures. Thanks for taking the time, Watchmen. Blessings

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Thanks, I will reread these scriptures. Thanks for taking the time, Watchmen. Blessings

 

[turnorburn]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Doctrines of man doctrines of demons have one thing in common they contradict what God has said I'd much rather have what Jesus wants for us than empty promises that corrupt and destroy...

Jesus said: John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

If we were taken out nobody could or would be saved..

tob

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Doctrines of man doctrines of demons have one thing in common they contradict what God has said I'd much rather have what Jesus wants for us than empty promises that corrupt and destroy...





Jesus said: John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

If we were taken out nobody could or would be saved..

tob

Believers aren't not taken out , were gathered to Him returning to the mount zech 14 acts 1 after the tribulation like HE says in matt 24:21-31

 

[n2thelight]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Timing is critical which is why Jesus Christs warns believers to take heed least we be deceived

paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is "pre trib" , as men claim he does. men lie and claim paul says that leading many to fall away as tares to the false Christs claiming to be Jesus

Just curious,

What are the specific ramifications for Christians for believing the Pre trib?

Because Jesus Christ told us His parousia is after the tribulation so why would a real believer think different?

ramifications:

false Christs comes claiming to be Jesus with signs and lying wonders to seduce away from HIS wedding and to satan claiming to be God.

sadly many will follow them thinking it's really Jesus come to fly them away when Jesus Christ warned us believers to take HEED and not be deceived.

Jesus Christ said the tares would be gathered first and that's just what the false Christs will be doing, harvesting tares away from the Lord's wheat

Yeah, so you didn't read my post. Pre trib believers wont fall for that. no one has a chance to try to convince us that "they are here for us" we are just GONE. No one has a chance to explain things. Its in the twinkle of an eye.

Mid trib or post trib people have a chance at that deception though, before the rapture happens.

You will fall for it because of one simple fact...God will allow it...

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [signs] which he had power [it was given him] to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"! Satan is going to make an image of this "one world system" [religious beast] and breath life into system. Their will be something symbolic created within the system that will cause the whole world to bow. This reminds me of the "image" created in Babylon's "one world government" under king Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 3. At that time there were only three that would not bow to the image.

II Thessalonians 2:9 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Sa'-tan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

"Even him" also includes Satan's religious beast system. Satan's religious system will be present with Satan. The religious beast is discussed in Revelation 13, and this the religious role that gives support and authority to Satan. If you believe in the Rapture theory, you will take part in that role. Many Christians will assume Satan to be Christ when they visible witness the supernatural powers he possess, and the deceptions that will take place, all except God's elect.

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth.

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.



My question to you is in the below verses

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Now,how is it you all get raptured,yet the Elect of God are still here?????

 

[n2thelight]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

How does Christ get out of Heaven to rapture you all anyway

Acts 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

We are talking about the second advent here, when that office of Savior will be filled, and God will send His Son again. But there is a very special time that must come first, when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels to the earth, for that five month period.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.
It is written that on the first day of the Millennium age, at Christ's return, every knee shall bow to Christ. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Jesus is quoting here from Isaiah 45:22, 23; "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [22] "I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." [23]

Again there are only two advents of Christ,in all of scripture,His first,and His second.........

 

[n2thelight]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

I must go back to Matt....In the 24th chapter Christ tells us everything that must and will happen before His return....Now rapturist teach that this is the 2nd coming,which they say is different from the rapture....

My question,why would Christ go through all the trouble telling us the signs to watch for,if we're not going to be here?

If this is not the case can one of you(rapturist)show me where the rapture is in that chapter?

 

[Deborah13]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Mid trib or post trib people have a chance at that deception though, before the rapture happens.

I had to edited twice, I think I misunderstood you!

 

[Destructus86]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

I agree with the title of this thread. There are far more scriptures to prove a post trib than there is a pre-trib and honestly...God never promised to take us out of troubles. He did however promise to perserve us THROUGH troubles.

The early church apparently was also post trib. There were only a handful of un-verified documents of people who were pre-trib but a majority of the church seemed to believe in post trib. I believe pre-trib is so big now because so many Christians don't want to go through any trials...that's not what our God does. It will be a dark time for Christians and will seperate the weak from the true.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

I must go back to Matt....In the 24th chapter Christ tells us everything that must and will happen before His return....Now rapturist teach that this is the 2nd coming,which they say is different from the rapture....

My question,why would Christ go through all the trouble telling us the signs to watch for,if we're not going to be here?

If this is not the case can one of you(rapturist)show me where the rapture is in that chapter?

You know I agree with you about the timing of the Lord's parousia and our gathering to Him ( the 2nd advent IS the rapture/harvest) and we both know the working of satan must happen before the Lord's return. aka the pre trib rapture=coming of false Christs


We agree with others that rapture means a catching up, plucking , which is what the reapers do to "the crop".

Jesus says (in matt 13) NAY to early harvest least the wheat be uprooted with the tares, Jesus says the reapers are the angels and the harvest is the end of the world and makes it very clear the tares will be harvested first NOT the church as some claim.

(purging of tares = false Christs claiming to be Jesus, satan claiming to be God).

You and I are prepared to stand for Jesus Christ NOT fly away. satan tries to confuse our "gathering together to Jesus Christ" with the coming of him and his false Christs by mistiming and adding pre trib to pauls words to create another coming of Jesus Christ which believers had better reject.


By satan creating a false "early rapture/harvest" as if to Jesus many will fall for satan's false Christs:
Matthew 24:21-31

this first gathering/harvest/rapture is for tares who fall away to pre trib rapture mistiming and think one of these false Christs is Jesus come to fly them away:






21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.






this is the gathering/harvest/rapture of wheat after the tribulation to Jesus Christ returning to the mount in Jerusalem, we don't fly away but endure betrayal beatings and deliverance to death allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through us:









29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



by making out that paul's quote of matt 24:30-31 is "pre trib" instead of post trib as Jesus Christ said many will fall away to satan's false Christs coming prior to the 2nd advent.


we who are alive and remain AFTER the tribulation will join them in the spirit
AER =g109 breath g4151 =spirit NOT up up and away as some lie and make out as if paul used the word g3772=sky by using the english meaning of air as if sky

paul NEVER says the church of believers is gathered before the tribulation!

paul does say we are sown a natural body and raise a spiritual body. I cor 15

zech 14,acts 1 says Jesus Christ returns to the mount and splits it , that's where we'll be gathered to as the saved dead return WITH Jesus not Jesus coming for them to fly anyone away as we know that's a lie added to scriptures to lead many astray.


good to talk to you as your one of few preparing to stand FOR Jesus not fly away with some false Christ.

 

[gr8grace]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

I must go back to Matt....In the 24th chapter Christ tells us everything that must and will happen before His return....Now rapturist teach that this is the 2nd coming,which they say is different from the rapture....

My question,why would Christ go through all the trouble telling us the signs to watch for,if we're not going to be here?

If this is not the case can one of you(rapturist)show me where the rapture is in that chapter?

You know I agree with you about the timing of the Lord's parousia and our gathering to Him ( the 2nd advent IS the rapture/harvest) and we both know the working of satan must happen before the Lord's return. aka the pre trib rapture=coming of false Christs


We agree with others that rapture means a catching up, plucking , which is what the reapers do to "the crop".

Jesus says (in matt 13) NAY to early harvest least the wheat be uprooted with the tares, Jesus says the reapers are the angels and the harvest is the end of the world and makes it very clear the tares will be harvested first NOT the church as some claim.

(purging of tares = false Christs claiming to be Jesus, satan claiming to be God).

You and I are prepared to stand for Jesus Christ NOT fly away. satan tries to confuse our "gathering together to Jesus Christ" with the coming of him and his false Christs by mistiming and adding pre trib to pauls words to create another coming of Jesus Christ which believers had better reject.


By satan creating a false "early rapture/harvest" as if to Jesus many will fall for satan's false Christs:
Matthew 24:21-31

this first gathering/harvest/rapture is for tares who fall away to pre trib rapture mistiming and think one of these false Christs is Jesus come to fly them away:






21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.






this is the gathering/harvest/rapture of wheat after the tribulation to Jesus Christ returning to the mount in Jerusalem, we don't fly away but endure betrayal beatings and deliverance to death allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through us:









29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



by making out that paul's quote of matt 24:30-31 is "pre trib" instead of post trib as Jesus Christ said many will fall away to satan's false Christs coming prior to the 2nd advent.


we who are alive and remain AFTER the tribulation will join them in the spirit
AER =g109 breath g4151 =spirit NOT up up and away as some lie and make out as if paul used the word g3772=sky by using the english meaning of air as if sky

paul NEVER says the church of believers is gathered before the tribulation!

paul does say we are sown a natural body and raise a spiritual body. I cor 15

zech 14,acts 1 says Jesus Christ returns to the mount and splits it , that's where we'll be gathered to as the saved dead return WITH Jesus not Jesus coming for them to fly anyone away as we know that's a lie added to scriptures to lead many astray.


good to talk to you as your one of few preparing to stand FOR Jesus not fly away with some false Christ.

A pre trib believer is not going to fall for a false Christ "coming to get them". There is no time to stand around and Guess or fall for a false Christ. We are just Gone. If someone or thing trys to convince us other wise, we KNOW that it is false.

The pre trib rapture is the ONLY sign before the tribulation, it ushers in the tribulation. Before the Rapture and I stress before the rapture, mid trib and post trib believers are open to deception because they do not believe in the pre trib rapture of the Church.

Mid trib and post trib believers have a chance at believing that the tribulation has started or may be started in a time when It has not. None of us will be around for the Tribulation, we are all gone before it starts no matter what we believe in the timing of the Rapture. But before the rapture happens we could possibly be making Tribulation decisions and actions when The actual tribulation isn't for the Church.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

I must go back to Matt....In the 24th chapter Christ tells us everything that must and will happen before His return....Now rapturist teach that this is the 2nd coming,which they say is different from the rapture....

My question,why would Christ go through all the trouble telling us the signs to watch for,if we're not going to be here?

If this is not the case can one of you(rapturist)show me where the rapture is in that chapter?

You know I agree with you about the timing of the Lord's parousia and our gathering to Him ( the 2nd advent IS the rapture/harvest) and we both know the working of satan must happen before the Lord's return. aka the pre trib rapture=coming of false


We agree with others that rapture means a catching up, plucking , which is what the reapers do to "the crop".

Jesus says (in matt 13) NAY to early harvest least the wheat be uprooted with the tares, Jesus says the reapers are the angels and the harvest is the end of the world and makes it very clear the tares will be harvested first NOT the church as some claim.

(purging of tares = false Christs claiming to be Jesus, satan claiming to be God).

You and I are prepared to stand for Jesus Christ NOT fly away. satan tries to confuse our "gathering together to Jesus
Christ" with the coming of him and his false Christs by mistiming and adding pre trib to pauls words to create another coming of Jesus Christ which believers had better reject.


By satan creating a false "early rapture/harvest" as if to Jesus many will fall for satan's false Christs:
Matthew 24:21-31

this first gathering/harvest/rapture is for tares who fall away to pre trib rapture mistiming and think one of these false
is Jesus come to fly them away:




21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.



this is the gathering/harvest/rapture of wheat after the tribulation to Jesus Christ returning to the mount in
Jerusalem, we don't fly away but endure betrayal beatings and deliverance to death allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through us:







29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


by making out that paul's quote of matt 24:30-31 is "pre trib" instead of post trib as Jesus Christ said many will fall away to satan's false Christs coming prior to the 2nd advent.


we who are alive and remain AFTER the tribulation will join them in the spirit
AER =g109 breath g4151 =spirit NOT up up and away as some lie and make out as if paul used the word g3772=sky by using the english meaning of air as if sky

paul NEVER says the church of believers is gathered before the tribulation!

paul does say we are sown a natural body and raise a spiritual body. I cor 15

zech 14,acts 1 says Jesus Christ returns to the mount and splits it , that's where we'll be gathered to as the saved dead return WITH Jesus not Jesus coming for them to fly anyone away as we know that's a lie added to scriptures to lead many astray.

good to talk to you as your one of few preparing to stand FOR Jesus not fly away with some false Christ.

A pre trib believer is not going to fall for a false Christ "coming to get them". There is no time to stand around and Guess
or fall for a false Christ. We are just Gone. If someone or thing trys to convince us other wise, we KNOW that it is false.

The pre trib rapture is the ONLY sign before the tribulation, it ushers in the tribulation. Before the Rapture and I stress before the rapture, mid trib and post trib believers are open to deception because they do not believe in the pre trib rapture of the Church.

Mid trib and post trib believers have a chance at believing that the tribulation has started or may be started in a time when It has not. None of us will be around for the Tribulation, we are all gone before it starts no matter what we believe in the timing of the Rapture. But before the rapture happens we could possibly be making Tribulation decisions and actions when
The actual tribulation isn't for the Church.

Hello brothers,
Excuse my ignorance on this terminology but what is actually meant by "post trib rapture"?
Is this still a "secret return of the Lord" for his church prior to his bodily return and the resurrection?
Or, is this "pretrib rapture" one and the same as the bodily return of the Lord to the earth at the resurrection?

Thanks, Hope of glory

 

[n2thelight]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Hello brothers,
Excuse my ignorance on this terminology but what is actually meant by "post trib rapture"?
Is this still a "secret return of the Lord" for his church prior to his bodily return and the resurrection?
Or, is this "pretrib rapture" one and the same as the bodily return of the Lord to the earth at the resurrection?

Thanks, Hope of glory

Hello Hope

I prefer to not use the term rapture,at all....I believe in the 2nd coming of Christ,and our gathering to Him,right here on earth.......

 

[n2thelight]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Now,how is it you all get raptured,yet the Elect of God are still here?????

How does Christ get out of Heaven to rapture you all anyway

Acts 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

We are talking about the second advent here, when that office of Savior will be filled, and God will send His Son again. But there is a very special time that must come first, when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels to the earth, for that five month period.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.
It is written that on the first day of the Millennium age, at Christ's return, every knee shall bow to Christ. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Jesus is quoting here from Isaiah 45:22, 23; "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [22] "I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." [23]