pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Eugene]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Do any think there may be a future need of Jesus reigning?

Rev 20:6 The first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. What is Jesus with us reigning over?

The first resurrection began with the death of our Savior, and it will cease after the millennium.

In Revelation 2:27. He shall rule them with a rod of iron, As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Is this past and all will be at peace of the earth everlasting? No, things just begin to heat up as Jesus puts down all rule and authority of Gentile nations attempting to continue ruling in usurpation.

Having all authority and power does not say He has exercised it yet. Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

It is finished, “Teleo†I have won, I am victorious but does that end all wars He will fight? Do any realize that we too may rule as kings and priests over the earth? Rev 5:10 "Thou hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Or over) the earth"

When Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2 things are going to change, and the world is no longer going to spit into the face of my Savior as a Lamb, He will be seen as the Lion of Judah, King of kings and Lord of lords; a mighty warrior cleansing the vileness of unscrupulous mankind. He will be seated as Joseph was over Egypt and though our Father will not be subject to Him, He allows Him to reign as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Why? As the Son of God become man of no reputation He earned that right.

 

[reba]

Doesn't He already have all power in Heaven and earth ?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[TonkaTim]

All my life this has been basic fundamental Christian doctrine. Jesus is Lord, Christ is King.

When does he take His own throne? Rev 4:1 I will show you things (What things?) that must be hereafter (When?) . . Rev 4:2 A throne is set in heaven . . Rev 4:8 Who sat upon that throne? . . which was, and is, and is to come. Is this other than Jesus?

The Creator sits on the throne: Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The Creator, the Lord over all things.

 

[jasoncran]

he won. he won at the cross. what is our victory? even our FAITH. faith in whom? JESUS.

be of good cheer, the bible says. for I have overcome the world. how cant it be jesus has yet to overcome the world then?

Jesus did win at the cross. There's no doubt about that. When He resurrected, it certainly changed the whole ballgame and I don't think anyone is questioning that. But the fact remains that Satan is alive and well on planet earth and there is unfulfilled prophecy yet. They way I read it at least.

so you don't like that jesus reings NOW then.

even with the bounding of satan then in the millennium people will still rebel.you make jesus sound too weak. he is allowing mans evil will to be allowed for a season and when He returns mans evil will and satanic influence will be gone.

 

[Eugene]

All my life this has been basic fundamental Christian doctrine. Jesus is Lord, Christ is King.

When does he take His own throne? Rev 4:1 I will show you things (What things?) that must be hereafter (When?) . . Rev 4:2 A throne is set in heaven . . Rev 4:8 Who sat upon that throne? . . which was, and is, and is to come. Is this other than Jesus?

Hi Tonka Tim, I’m not sure of your doctrine, but it sounds as if you’re talking Preterism. The scripture I’m referring to is future to the Lord’s day. John said he was in spirit on the Lord’s Day in Rev 1:10.

The vision was backward, present and future according to Rev 1:19. He was then invited into heaven from that point in time of the Lord’s Day and told in Rev 4:1 that he would be shown things to occur hereafter again from the time of the Lord’s Day. “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.â€

What does John see? A throne being set for Jesus in Rev 4:2. Presently Jesus is at God’s right hand as our intercessor.

Rom 8:34 . . It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 

[TonkaTim]

All my life this has been basic fundamental Christian doctrine. Jesus is Lord, Christ is King.

When does he take His own throne? Rev 4:1 I will show you things (What things?) that must be hereafter (When?) . . Rev 4:2 A throne is set in heaven . . Rev 4:8 Who sat upon that throne? . . which was, and is, and is to come. Is this other than Jesus?

Hi Tonka Tim, I’m not sure of your doctrine, but it sounds as if you’re talking Preterism. The scripture I’m referring to is future to the Lord’s day. John said he was in spirit on the Lord’s Day in Rev 1:10.

The vision was backward, present and future according to Rev 1:19. He was then invited into heaven from that point in time of the Lord’s Day and told in Rev 4:1 that he would be shown things to occur hereafter again from the time of the Lord’s Day. “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.â€

What does John see? A throne being set for Jesus in Rev 4:2. Presently Jesus is at God’s right hand as our intercessor.

Rom 8:34 . . It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

No preterism from me friend. How could you come to that conclusion? Especially since this is my first reply in this thread answering a question Jason asked:

DO you, do you not believe in a seven year period for the nation of isreal per Daniel 9? most post tribbers do.

yet not one of the futurists have yet to tell me successfully why isreal must be in the land to count as a nation that is saved.

Jason,
I don't see any reason for the necessity. Salvation is through Christ & is individual. One soul at a time coming to the foot of the cross in repentance, realizing their desperate need for the only path for redemption, Christ.

We're waiting on a new heaven & a new earth for the fulfillment of the promises of inheritance: John 14: 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

This old earth will be destroyed:2 Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


I thought the necessity of earthly Israel was a pre-trib doctrine. The reasoning why the church must be removed.

You asked a question I answered the question through scripture:

All my life this has been basic fundamental Christian doctrine. Jesus is Lord, Christ is King.

When does he take His own throne? Rev 4:1 I will show you things (What things?) that must be hereafter (When?) . . Rev 4:2 A throne is set in heaven . . Rev 4:8 Who sat upon that throne? . . which was, and is, and is to come. Is this other than Jesus?

The Creator sits on the throne: Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The Creator, the Lord over all things.

Are you not understanding my answer?

Do you not consider Christ the Creator?

 

[jasoncran]

well lets look at a COUPLE of verses here, first a digression on the visions of the father on throne by john and also moses whom saw jesus.

And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

exodus 24:10.

note and compare to johns' vision's

revalation 5

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

that is clearly Christ and yet moses never saw god per jesus statement. he saw the son.
rev 4

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

note the similarities, but I will also throne ole zeke visions.

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.
2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,
3 The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.
4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.
7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.
8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.
9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.
12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.
16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.
17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.
18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.
19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.
24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

note the similarities. all these were jesus or the YHWH. I usually believe the YHWH to be father but the word heshem is used by the jews when the words LORD GOD, therefore its just the YHWH. not going to much into the depths of that name, but you get the point.

albeit next post I will tie it in.

 

[Eugene]

Are you not understanding my answer?

Do you not consider Christ the Creator?

I think this is addressed to me so I'll just say yes, Jesus is the Creator. I'm not certain as to how that would change the fact that Jesus doesn't presently sit on His own throne until Rev 4:2.

 

[jasoncran]

ok. given the above and take into account this verse

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

is 66:1

I have already established that jesus is seen both as the lamb above in that vision and also whom is on the throne. yes confusing but that's the trinity for yah. and feel free to say the father is seen but the son always has same image as the father. so either way its the YHWH.that said. God said that he reigned from the throne of heaven over the earth., can you @Edward tell me when he did loose the throne of Lordship over his creation? he didn't. he merely allows and controls satan per job 1. I am not saying that it is PERFECT now just that god is king and is allowing evil for his purpose, but one day he will end the sin issue and satan for good.

 

[TonkaTim]

Are you not understanding my answer?

Do you not consider Christ the Creator?

I think this is addressed to me so I'll just say yes, Jesus is the Creator. I'm not certain as to how that would change the fact that Jesus doesn't presently sit on His own throne until Rev 4:2.

As the Creator Christ is God. Whose throne does Christ not occupy? David's? David's Thrones was Christ's before David was.

 

[Eugene]

As the Creator Christ is God. Whose throne does Christ not occupy? David's? David's Thrones was Christ's before David was.

Rev 5:1 “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.†Is this verse speaking of our Father on His throne, Jesus, or both?

Rev 5:2 . . Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Who is the Lion of the tribe of Juda; is it our Father, Jesus, or both?

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Also notice in Rev 4:2 that Jesus’ throne is in the midst of the elders and four Living ones shown in Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6.

Rev 5:7 And he (Our Father, Jesus, or both?) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Just a guess here, but to me it is Jesus taking the book out of the right hand of our Father sitting on His throne.

I’m not sure I can express this right to be understood, but note 1Cor 15:27 For he (Jesus) hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (Our Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Jesus).

An excerpt from a study of Revelation by Brother A.S. Copley - The distinct personalities of the Father and Son are here as everywhere maintained. “It is manifest that He (God the Father) is excepted†in the subjection mentioned. God is not subject to His Son; but He puts all things under His Son, who shall reign as God, for the thousand years. Then after His glorious reign of peace and holy conquest, the Son Himself shall be subject to the Father, “that God may be all in all.â€

 

[TonkaTim]

What did Moses & Jesus say about the relationship between the Father & the Son?

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

John 10: 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[Eugene]

What did Moses & Jesus say about the relationship between the Father & the Son?

Ya got me. unno​

 

[thethinker]

uhm so the jewish race died? really uhm im jewish., do tell.

How do you plan to show you are a Jew?

First, after Jerusalem was destroyed in ad70 all geneaological records were destroyed. The entire city and temple perished.

Second, it cannot be proven by DNA without DNA samples from the original twelve tribal heads.

I know that tests have confirmed that modern jews and all jews are related.

First, the word "Jew" today has reference to religion and not to race.

Second, tests have NOT confirmed that modern "Jews" are descendants of Abraham. There are tests which some claim prove that modern "Jews" are really of Gentile origin.

Third, Jesus said that their house would be "left DESOLATE." After the remnant of Paul's time were saved God judged them for rejecting their Messiah. When Jerusalem was seiged they were taken captive and scattered all over the world. They intermarried and lost their ethnic identity as Jesus predicted. Sorry.

Fourth, before God judged them He gave them another chance through the preaching of the apostles. But they continued to reject their Christ. So Paul passed judgment upon them saying, "Seeing that you count yourselves unworthy of eternal life we turn to the Gentiles."

Now the Gentiles posses the promise of the resurrection along with the remnant of Jews in Paul's time. When the dead are raised and the living are changed Hosea's prophecy comes to pass regarding the destruction of death (1 Corinthians 15:50-55 with Hosea 13:14). This promise was originally given to Israel. But because of their disobedience only the chosen remnant of the Jews in Paul's time get it along with the Gentiles.

Reformation Study Bible note on Hosea 12:13:

[T]his verse is one of the great old testament affirmations of God's power over the last enemy, death (cf. 1 Cor. 15:55). Whereas the old Israel of Hosea's time did not avail itself of the divine power over death, the true spiritual Israel (Christ with His church) experiences it.

Reformation Study Bible note, page 1379

 

[thethinker]

Try telling the Lord that isn't Israel

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

tob

CONDITIONAL! See Zechariah 1:3. God said that He would return to Israel IF they returned to Him. Israel confessed that God was dealing with them CONDITIONALLY (vs. 6).

So the book of Zechariah BEGINS with God saying that He is dealing with them CONDITIONALLY and Israel acknowledges it. Zechariah is NOT about what will be but about what could have been for Israel.

Why is it that so many Christians want to ignore the contingency clauses in God's covenants with Israel?

 

[thethinker]

I read, I attempt to hear, and I see little in a positive light that leads to truth concerning Israel, its future, and God’s unfailing love determined to restore them. Though not visible in its present society, detractors might realize they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Remember Rom 11:25 . . lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What does God's unfailing love have to do with it? If God makes a conditional covenant with a people and they do not meet the contingencies and God repents of the good He promised, how has His love failed?

And what about the Jews of the last two thousand years who will not receive anything from God? Is it okay for God to fail all the generations up to the last generation?

 

[reba]

Sure Edward the same as it does for every one....

 

[thethinker]

SO does the grace of the Lord Jesus not extend to Jews today?

There are no ethnic Jews today. But the grace of the Lord extends to any man that calls upon His name.

 

[thethinker]

Sure Edward the same as it does for every one....

I also find it hard to believe that there is no Jewish race today that has Abrahams DNA.

It's is anthropologically inmcorrect to say that Abraham's physical seed exists today.

If God can preserve his Word, then God can (and did) preserve His people.

What is your proof that God wanted to preserve ethnic Israel? No one here wants to deal with Jesus prediction, "Your house shall be left unto you DESOLATE."

Modern Israel is not Biblical Israel.

 

[thethinker]

There are no ethnic Jews today.

Are you basing that on scripture somehow, or on man's writings? Source please, I'd like to get a grasp on this.

I have repeatedly given Jesus' word in which He said, "Your house shall be left unto you DESOLATE." Was Jesus a false prophet?

I have substantiated the fulfillment of this prediction from extra-biblical sources.

What needs to be understood is that modern Israel is not the Israel of scripture, they are not the descendants of Abraham. There is no race of Jews today! The Encyclopedia Britannica (Vol. 12, p. 1054) 1973 says, "The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race."Jewish author, Camille Honig, editor of The Jewish Voice, wrote (Nov, 1953),"It is sheer nonsense, as well as unscientific, to speak of a Jewish race. Jews do not belong to a single homogeneous group."

This is acknowledged by historians of all stripes who know that the Ashkenaz Jews of today were, in fact, Gentiles in origin. Ashkenaz Jews, who comprise the vast majority of those calling themselves Jews today, trace their lineage back to Gomer, who in turn was descended from Japheth, the son of Noah (Genesis 10:3; 1 Chronicles 1:4f). However, the lineage of Abraham came through Noah's son Shem, not Japheth. This is incredibly important, and yet, is being essentially ignored by most Bible students today.

Thus, for modern prophecy teachers to proclaim that Israel remains the chosen people of God, is a falsehood, for Biblical Israel does not exist today. There is no nation of Israel, descended from Abraham, today.

But, it is not only wrong from a purely ethnic/racialperspective, to speak of the restoration of Israel today, it is also wrong from a Biblical perspective. The nation of Israel was never intended to be God's ultimate "People." He had something else in mind, something which even the nation of Israel typified. Yet, programs like Wings of Eagles, by claiming that Israel remains the chosen people, whom the modern church must support at all costs, are tacitly guilty of rejecting what God had in mind as the actual goal of Israel's destiny.

The idea of a restored Israel is a modern myth, for Biblical Israel, physically descended from Abraham, simply does not exist. She ceased to exist in A.D. 70. The "Jews" in Israel today are Ashkenaz, and are Gentiles by race. Even Jewish anthropologists admit that there is no ethnic race of Israel to day.


http://endtimesmadness.com/Jews2.html