Predestination

[Drew]

Dawn, all people are called by God to salvation. Those who accept that call are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son and to the adoption of sons.

But no one is predestined to accept God's call.

I agree. I know that this Romans 8 text is complex, but I do think it can be legitimately read the way you suggest. There is no incoherence in saying that God "pre-destines" or "decides in advance" that He (God) will indeed most certainly take who freely accept Christ and then conform them into the image of His Son.

God can "pre-destine" what will happen to those who freely accept Christ.

I concede, however, that this is a tricky passage and the concepts involved are perhaps even more tricky.

 

[Drew]

...God always knows exhaustively what the future can be, and he always knows what it will be insofar as it is completely determined by his will. Moreover, he always knows what his will will be no matter what other free agents finnaly decide and do. However, insofar as what he wills is alternatives for free creatures to choose between or among, God does not know which alternatives will come to pass. What he knows is what each agent must choose within the parameters set by its powers and circumstances....

Imagine God as a chess master playing a rookie....Being a chess master he knows all the possible move he can make as well as the rookie...The rookie can make his move freely...But God being as master is always many steps ahead in controlling the Game

I agree with this analysis. But you are certainly saying something beyond asserting that man has free will - you are denying that God knows the future exhaustively. I actually think you are right - I believe that God does not know everything about the future, but I think that, just as per your chess master, He is "in control of the important stuff". I think the chess master analogy is an exceedingly appropriate metaphor.

However, on a "technical" point: one could believe that God knows the future exhaustively and yet also assert that man has some free will - there is no contradiction here. For years, I thought there was, and I understand why people might think there is a problem with this. But I was convinced that I (and therefore probably many others) was making a very subtle error of logic.

This issue of whether an agent can exhaustively know the future without limiting the free will of others is not simply a "religious" matter - secular people think about this too. And you can find all kinds of scholarly material on this question - it is quite complex and subtle.

 

[lovely]

Why not?

I've been reading a book lately that talks a lot about that

Some major objections to Calvinsim are...

1. God's sovereignty vs. freewill.
2. Who actually are the 'elect'.
3. Calvinism would make a 'real' need to evangelize invalid.
4. God wouldn't choose only some, but would choose all. 'He desires that all...'
5. How can man be considered 'guilty', if he never had the option to choose God.
6. The atonement can not be limited, because that limit's Christ.

Obviously there are more objections, and one line doesn't do these arguments justice. I would say that if you are looking into Calvinism, these may be some of the areas you should study in the Word...not for argument's sake, but because they are valid questions. I suggest that you try to pull up the TULIP, before you accept it...be a Berean!

Freewill has been mentioned here, and I just want to give an overview of my opinion. I see God's sovereignty throughout Scripture. I think our culture struggles to think in corporate terms, and has a difficult time seeing ownership and submission as anything good. Our Creator owns everything, and we are His vessels to be used as He determines. A King is not King of a democracy. The divine love laws were not 'of the people', but rather God's sovereign decree for his people, a Jesus obeyed them, even to death on the cross. In this case, big government truly does know what's best for us, God loves us, and knows exactly what we need, more so than we do....I am pointing out the obvious.

Our will is not free in a libertarian sense. First, we are created beings, and our vantage point is from that of a created being...we just have limitations by nature. Secondly, we are post-Adam humans, fallen, and our free will is pressed upon by sin right from our birth. As we grow, we grow in sin. It deceives and hardens our hearts, which causes us to become even more pressed upon by sin...it's a cycle winding us deeper and deeper into the muck of sin and self-righteousness...we are slaves to it. God freed us from this slavery. Our will is never 'free' as we define the word, but one day it will be completely free in sense that we can serve God as we were created to do, which will be our highest fulfillment.

The Holy Spirit, Who regenerates, can give our dead souls life, quicken us, which makes us dead to sin. In this way we 'see' our fallen state...this brings the believer to a true place of repentence. Once our eyes are opened, we are then able to 'see' the Truth and grow in obedience to Christ, and 'in Christ', performing the good works God has prepared for us.

Scripture does tell us to 'choose' to 'walk worthy' etc. God uses our will, He works through it, in the same way He works through our prayers to accomplish His will. I do think there is mystery in all of this, and so I don't want to say that I absolutely have this all worked out...I don't. I keep revisiting my beliefs the same as every believer, and I try to continue to approach the Word with the hope that God will teach me. I guess, I'm not longer married to it, even though I still believe it. God is so amazing, and His thoughts so vastly higher, that He can, and will, work His plan in the midst of what we see as contradictions.

There's so much more that could be said, but we each have to work out our own salvation, and study for ourseves so that we can be approved by God, and also be used in the way He desires. The Lord bless you.

 

[Bubba]

Lovely wrote;
"There's so much more that could be said, but we each have to work out our own salvation, and study for ourselves so that we can be approved by God, and also be used in the way He desires. The Lord bless you."
I think it is interesting that the passage where we read "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" ends with "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." God is sovereign!
Bubba

 

[A New Dawn]

Dawn, all people are called by God to salvation. Those who accept that call are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son and to the adoption of sons.

But no one is predestined to accept God's call.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, however you see it), John 6 also speaks to the issue of God having chosen a set of people for salvation that Jesus says he will save, and will lose none of, and he goes on to say that nobody but the ones that God draws will come to him and be saved. I don't see how you can come to your conclusion when there are too many scriptures that speak the opposite.

 

[A New Dawn]

Some major objections to Calvinsim are...

1. God's sovereignty vs. freewill.
2. Who actually are the 'elect'.
3. Calvinism would make a 'real' need to evangelize invalid.
4. God wouldn't choose only some, but would choose all. 'He desires that all...'
5. How can man be considered 'guilty', if he never had the option to choose God.
6. The atonement can not be limited, because that limit's Christ.

Obviously there are more objections, and one line doesn't do these arguments justice. I would say that if you are looking into Calvinism, these may be some of the areas you should study in the Word...not for argument's sake, but because they are valid questions. I suggest that you try to pull up the TULIP, before you accept it...be a Berean!

Actually, many of the objections that most raise are objections to hyper-Calvinism, not Calvinism, as you have demonstrated in your list there. Most of those "objections" you listed, though, are really questions Calvinism answers, all of which are taken directly from the Bible. #5 is an extremely important question that bears answering. Too bad you are listing it as an "objection to Calvinism". Seems that people really should investigate these "objections" so that they 1. have an understanding of who our sovereign God is, and 2. know what they are talking about when they try to talk about Calvinism.

 

[A New Dawn]

Dawn, all people are called by God to salvation. Those who accept that call are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son and to the adoption of sons.

But no one is predestined to accept God's call.

If all people are called, why are not all saved? Is there a problem with Christ's redeeming will?

 

[Vince]

If all people are called, why are not all saved? Is there a problem with Christ's redeeming will?

Because they choose to reject that call.

For instance, Acts 17:30 tells us 30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,"

Now, does God make it possible for all men to repent? Acts 5:31 tells us "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." And Acts 11:18 tells us "When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." "

So God grants repentance to both Jews and Gentiles. Can they reject this repentance?

Romans 2:4 tells us that they can. "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?"

 

[A New Dawn]

Because they choose to reject that call.

For instance, Acts 17:30 tells us 30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,"

Now, does God make it possible for all men to repent? Acts 5:31 tells us "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." And Acts 11:18 tells us "When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." "

So God grants repentance to both Jews and Gentiles. Can they reject this repentance?

Romans 2:4 tells us that they can. "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?"

If God calls all to salvation, then all would be saved. Either the call goes to everyone and everyone responds, or it doesn't. There must be a reason why only some hear the call and repent. If everyone heard the same call, and it was effectual, then all would be saved. I believe that there are two calls. The general call that everyone hears, and the effectual call that only the elect (those who have been predestined) hear. Only those predestined to be conformed to the image of God's son can hear the effectual (inner) call.

 

[Vince]

"If God calls all to salvation, then all would be saved."

The Bible makes no such statement.


"I believe that there are two calls. The general call that everyone hears, and the effectual call that only the elect (those who have been predestined) hear."

The doctrine that God has two calls, His honest call and His hypocritical call, is not found in Scripture.



"Only those predestined to be conformed to the image of God's son can hear the effectual (inner) call."

There is no such teaching in Scripture.


Folks, Saint Augustine got unconditional election from the false prophet Mani. John Calvin got it from Saint Augustine. This doctrine is not taught in Scripture.

 

[A New Dawn]

"If God calls all to salvation, then all would be saved."

The Bible makes no such statement.

Sure it does. In John 6, Christ states that of all that the Father gives him, none will be lost. And in Romans 8 it states that all who are predestined will be called, all who are called will be justified, and all who are justified will be glorified.

So either all are predestined and called and saved, or the call doesn't go to everyone.

"I believe that there are two calls. The general call that everyone hears, and the effectual call that only the elect (those who have been predestined) hear."

The doctrine that God has two calls, His honest call and His hypocritical call, is not found in Scripture.



"Only those predestined to be conformed to the image of God's son can hear the effectual (inner) call."

There is no such teaching in Scripture.

There is! Let's see, how many times does it say in the Bible "He who hath ears to hear, let him hear", and "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me".

 

[Vince]

Dawn, John chapter 6 does indeed teach that Christians cannot lose their salvation, and it also teaches that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them. But it does not teach that God has an honest call and a hypocritical call.

 

[A New Dawn]

Dawn, John chapter 6 does indeed teach that Christians cannot lose their salvation, and it also teaches that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them. But it does not teach that God has an honest call and a hypocritical call.

Did you read the rest of my post?

 

[Vince]

While we're on the subject, Psalm 90:3 tells us


You turn man to destruction, And say, "Return, O children of men."

God does not blind or harden people in order to send them to Hell. After Pharaoh had hardened his own heart twice, God hardened Pharaoh's heart for PHYSICAL destruction, explaining that He was doing this in order to bring the Egyptians to Him.

 

[Drew]

God does not blind or harden people in order to send them to Hell. After Pharaoh had hardened his own heart twice, God hardened Pharaoh's heart for PHYSICAL destruction, explaining that He was doing this in order to bring the Egyptians to Him.

I agree with your first statement, but think your take on why Pharoah was hardened needs to be nuanced.

Here is what Paul says about the hardening of Pharoah:

I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

And what text is Paul quoting here? It is this text:

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18

Pharoah's "hardening" is not in relation to his eternal destiny - on this we agree - it is in relation to his resistance to the release of the Jews.

Now I agree that this might have had the side-effect of making some Egyptians realize that the God of Israel is the real god of the universe. But, I suggest that Pharaoh was really hardened to set the stage for the great act of deliverance we see in the exodus.

Yes, this might bring Egyptians to faith in the God of Israel. But I suggest that the more foundational point is that Pharoah has been hardened to set up a great act of deliverance for the true people of God. The fact that this might bring some Egyptians to faith is a second-order effect.

And one of the reasons this is so is because, in Romans 9, Paul is arguing that just like Pharoah, Israel itself has been hardened so that the entire world can be delivered from sin and death. Of course, that case needs to be made, but I have provided some posts on this already in a number of different threads.

 

[Vince]

Incidentally, God accomplished His goal in hardening Pharaoh's heart. The story of how God delivered Israel really has been proclaimed throughout the entire earth. Did Pharaoh himself turn to the Lord before he drowned? The Bible doesn't say, but God's goal was to bring people to Himself.

 

[Drew]

Incidentally, God accomplished His goal in hardening Pharaoh's heart. The story of how God delivered Israel really has been proclaimed throughout the entire earth. Did Pharaoh himself turn to the Lord before he drowned? The Bible doesn't say, but God's goal was to bring people to Himself.

I substantially agree with you. Even though we might have slightly different interpretations of this text, I suspect we are united in denying that the text deals with the "predestination of Pharoah to hell".

Hardly something that would publically display the power of God to the whole world. And in this respect you are quite correct to point out that the deliverance of Israel has indeed been proclaimed to the whole world.

 

[smaller]

If God calls all to salvation, then all would be saved. Either the call goes to everyone and everyone responds, or it doesn't. There must be a reason why only some hear the call and repent. If everyone heard the same call, and it was effectual, then all would be saved. I believe that there are two calls. The general call that everyone hears, and the effectual call that only the elect (those who have been predestined) hear. Only those predestined to be conformed to the image of God's son can hear the effectual (inner) call.

Predestination is quite easy to see once all the 'scriptural' parties to these matters come forth.

The display of 'why' any person does not believe is found in two primary ways.

FIRST, that ALL of us were blinded enemies of the Gospel prior to conversion. No one is born, born again. We all by various ways and means of Gods workings upon our hearts come to know Him in a theoretically personal and relevant way. No church or given set of rituals can instill personal familiarity with our Lord. HE introduces HIMSELF to each member in the multitude of ways we are all drawn. Not saying that church membership does NOT play a role in that as it certainly does, but that does not equate to that personal relationship

SECONDLY, when we ALL were blinded enemies, we were so blinded by the 'god of this world.'

In those who see, that 'god of this world' has been moved back from our minds in order for us to be able to hear or to see.

PREDESTINATION is NOT about believers or unbelievers. It is about Gods direct dealing with the 'god of this world' and those so blinded by same. These are the parties involved. The 'god of this world' was ALWAYS predestined to BLIND the MINDS of ALL unbelievers and we were once ALL unbelievers 'because of that working.'

I hope some reading this will find some understanding.

The 'god of this world' was raised up and shown OVER the mind and heart of Pharaoh. The 'god of this world' was raised up and shown OVER the mind and heart of Esau.

There is or at least should be a clear understanding of anyone trying to graps the concepts of predestination that without ANY DOUBT the 'god of this world,' that would be SATAN and his messengers are PREDESTINED to THE LAKE OF FIRE.

And those entities can do exactly ZERO about that fate. They are again and without any doubt VESSELS OF DISHONOUR who BLIND MINDS and STEAL WORDS of God.

Yet God allows that working to continue on in ANY MIND that is not 'elected to hear or to see.'

And those who CANNOT see this fact do in fact remain UNDER the covering of that working, instead blaming the BLINDED MINDS of unbelievers when CLEARLY there are causes in these matters that ARE NOT THEM, and God can REMOVE that blindness caused by the 'god of this world' ANY TIME HE SO PLEASES.

Understand these measures and IF God leads you to agree with these facts you will NEVER again blame a BLINDED unbeliever because YOU NOW KNOW what is really going on.

God can prevail over the ENTIRETY of the workings of the 'god of this world' and at the summation of mankind, THIS FACT will be PROVEN BY GOD in Jesus Christ.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

Predestination is a Gospel Doctrine eph 1:


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Vince]

"PREDESTINATION is... about Gods direct dealing with the 'god of this world' and those so blinded by same. The 'god of this world' was ALWAYS predestined to BLIND the MINDS of ALL unbelievers and we were once ALL unbelievers 'because of that working.'"


Uhm, no. Predestination refers to our being conformed to the image of His Son and to being adopted as sons. Period. There are no other predestinations.


"Predestination is a Gospel doctrine."

Uhm, no. The Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and was buried, and rose again from the dead according to the Scriptures. Predestination is not part of the Gospel.