Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[Truthfrees]

Jesus being the one who holds back the son of perdition who is the last antichrist, 1 John 2:18, 19.

The Spirit of God holds him back

 

[for_his_glory]

the Holy Spirit holds him back not Jesus

the Holy spirit lives in believers

I believe in order to understand the "he" (which is not capitalized) in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 we have to understand who the beast out of the sea is who for now withholds giving its power to the beast out of the earth, Rev 13, that will be revealed in time. Even now this mystery of iniquity that Daniel spoke of in Daniel Chapter 7 already has been working in the world, but will be revealed when Christ returns and by the brightness of His coming will by His words alone cast both the beast and its false prophet (son of perdition) into the lake of fire.

When you put together all the verses that say what to watch for before Christ returns and plants His feet on the mount of Olives we read that it will be on the last day, Zechariah 14:1-4; Matthew 24:23-31; John 5:28, 28; John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Rev 19:11-21.

 

[for_his_glory]

He also said that the Antichrist is coming (future).

There lays the problem as many want to capitalize the word antichrist as if it is some separate inclusive being that will come on the scene in the last days. That is not what is written as it says "whereby we know it is the last time" meaning there will be no more antichrist after this last time as it will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, for the mystery of iniquity (antichrist) already works in the world, Daniel 7 explains this mystery, and will finally be revealed to everyone when Christ returns.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[for_his_glory]

Escape by the death of the body is how I read REV 3:10 just as the similar promise to King Josiah was fulfilled.
Rev 3:10
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
Rev 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

If you read from Rev 3:10 down to vs. 13 Jesus is speaking about those who keep His word and endure the temptations yet to come until the end. Those who are Christ own that are alive during God's wrath are sealed by the Holy Spirit so that God's wrath to come will not fall upon them as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption when Christ returns, Ephesians 4:30.

Rev 14:13 just means those who die in the Lord from that point on are blessed as they now rest from all their labor as their good works in the Lord will be rewarded just like all those before them.

 

[JLB]

There lays the problem as many want to capitalize the word antichrist as if it is some separate inclusive being that will come on the scene in the last days. That is not what is written as it says "whereby we know it is the last time" meaning there will be no more antichrist after this last time as it will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, for the mystery of iniquity (antichrist) already works in the world, Daniel 7 explains this mystery, and will finally be revealed to everyone when Christ returns.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

So you agree there will be the last antichrist alive on the last Day when Jesus returns and destroys him with the brightness of His coming?



JLB

 

[JLB]

There lays the problem as many want to capitalize the word antichrist as if it is some separate inclusive being that will come on the scene in the last days.

I didn’t capitalize it.

It’s capitalized in the Bible.


Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18




JLB

 

[Randy]

So you agree there will be the last antichrist alive on the last Day when Jesus returns and destroys him with the brightness of His coming?



JLB

The great battle of God almighty.
The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness.

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

[Randy]

If you read from Rev 3:10 down to vs. 13 Jesus is speaking about those who keep His word and endure the temptations yet to come until the end. Those who are Christ own that are alive during God's wrath are sealed by the Holy Spirit so that God's wrath to come will not fall upon them as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption when Christ returns, Ephesians 4:30.

Rev 14:13 just means those who die in the Lord from that point on are blessed as they now rest from all their labor as their good works in the Lord will be rewarded just like all those before them.

The key word in Rev 14:13, in regard to their deaths, was "blessed". Which was my purpose of stating that scripture.

While I respect your opinion and see your faith in the Lord I disagree.(Thank you for taking your time to give it)

In regard to Rev 3:10 their eyes will not see the disaster and judgments God is going to pour out into this world. They will be gathered to the Lord and buried in peace just as King Josiah was. It does not speak to me of a pre-tribulation rapture. Any escape will be through the death of the body.

 

[JLB]

The great battle of God almighty.
The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness.

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

I really couldn’t tell from your post, as to your position.


Do you agree or disagree, there will be the last antichrist alive on the last Day when Jesus returns and destroys him with the brightness of His coming?


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8




JLB

 

[Randy]

I really couldn’t tell from your post, as to your position.


Do you agree or disagree, there will be the last antichrist alive on the last Day when Jesus returns and destroys him with the brightness of His coming?


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8




JLB

How could you not tell? You have the angel of the abyss who comes up and overpowers the 2 witnesses. (The beast) You have a false prophet who sets up the image of that beast and forces people to worship that false God. Note the 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem. So at that point the lawlessness one is in Jerusalem and has been revealed to the whole world. The bowl judgments are those that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. They are defeated in the end but the sudden appearing of Jesus. Rev 16:15 The great battle. As is in Zech 14 and 2thess 2. Those armies, visible and invisible, are defeated by Jesus and the armies of heaven that follow Him.

So yes (Smile)
I am premil and post trib.

 

[for_his_glory]

So you agree there will be the last antichrist alive on the last Day when Jesus returns and destroys him with the brightness of His coming?



JLB

Of course I agree there will be the last antichrist that will once and for all be revealed to everyone who is alive at that time of Christ return. Even now it is working its iniquity in the word and has been since the days of the Babylonian Empire.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn’t capitalize it.

It’s capitalized in the Bible.


Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18




JLB

I guess it all depends on what version of the Bible one uses as in the KJV, which I prefer, it's not capitalized, but even though it is a rival of God that will be exposed and destroyed when Christ returns as there will be no more mystery.

 

[for_his_glory]

The key word in Rev 14:13, in regard to their deaths, was "blessed". Which was my purpose of stating that scripture.

While I respect your opinion and see your faith in the Lord I disagree.(Thank you for taking your time to give it)

In regard to Rev 3:10 their eyes will not see the disaster and judgments God is going to pour out into this world. They will be gathered to the Lord and buried in peace just as King Josiah was. It does not speak to me of a pre-tribulation rapture. Any escape will be through the death of the body.

Yes, I agree the keyword there was "blessed" as those who have died before the return of Christ are at rest from all their labors done for the Lord.

If you read further down in Rev 14:14-20 this is the time of God's harvest as He sends His angels out to separates the wheat from the tares right before He begins the seven vial judgements poured out on those who have rejected Christ.

You are absolutly right this says nothing about any pretrib rapture as at that time of the harvest and vial judgements Jesus has not yet returned.

 

[for_his_glory]

thanks for sharing your pov on this

because the original greek manuscripts had no punctuation or caps or even spaces between words and sentences i am not reliant on what english translators did with paragraphs sentences caps etc - it is their opinion when they insert all of these things into their translation

I totally agree with all the punctuation as it can change the whole meaning of a sentence. I read scripture without chapter, verse and punctuation as I try to read them like the letters they are translated from. I only use chapter and verse to show what I share with others that is found in the scriptures.

 

[Truthfrees]

I totally agree with all the punctuation as it can change the whole meaning of a sentence. I read scripture without chapter, verse and punctuation as I try to read them like the letters they are translated from. I only use chapter and verse to show what I share with others that is found in the scriptures.

amen - i do also

 

[tdidymas]

I also used to be pre-trib until I started studying Rev for myself. It's my current opinion that no eschatology constructed thusfar fits all scriptural contexts. There are 4 basic views, and each one has valid points, a large part of them agree to some extent, but each one also takes scripture out of context in order to justify their construct. There is much straining and jumping through interpretive hoops in order to claim that scripture isn't contrary to their construct. My point is, I am suspicious of all eschatological constructs presented to date.

I don't want to debate on this subject, as I certainly am not an expert on it. But I would like to say something about why I departed from dispensationalism. Such requires that the old covenant is still in effect, or at least will be resurrected some day with a 3rd temple. I think this is contrary to what Hebrews says about it. According to dispensational teaching, the church is a sidebar (parenthesis) to God's original plan, instead of being the main plan. Along with this, there is an assumption that God has 2 separate people (Israel and the church) that He deals with differently and separately. I disagree based on what Paul says in Eph about the unity of the Jews with the gentiles in the church. These are two major issues I have with it, although there are others.

Finally, the difference in the views is about what one assumes about the time frames. All of them assume a chronology that isn't stated, and appears to piece together what is assumed as a puzzle that is apart in Rev, which their particular chronology supposedly glues it together properly. I am very suspicious about any construct that assumes a chronology that may not be correct, but is justified by forcing that chronology on the scripture. Each one of them uses a twist of favorite proof texts to support their position.
TD

 

[for_his_glory]

I also used to be pre-trib until I started studying Rev for myself. It's my current opinion that no eschatology constructed thusfar fits all scriptural contexts. There are 4 basic views, and each one has valid points, a large part of them agree to some extent, but each one also takes scripture out of context in order to justify their construct. There is much straining and jumping through interpretive hoops in order to claim that scripture isn't contrary to their construct. My point is, I am suspicious of all eschatological constructs presented to date.

I don't want to debate on this subject, as I certainly am not an expert on it. But I would like to say something about why I departed from dispensationalism. Such requires that the old covenant is still in effect, or at least will be resurrected some day with a 3rd temple. I think this is contrary to what Hebrews says about it. According to dispensational teaching, the church is a sidebar (parenthesis) to God's original plan, instead of being the main plan. Along with this, there is an assumption that God has 2 separate people (Israel and the church) that He deals with differently and separately. I disagree based on what Paul says in Eph about the unity of the Jews with the gentiles in the church. These are two major issues I have with it, although there are others.

Finally, the difference in the views is about what one assumes about the time frames. All of them assume a chronology that isn't stated, and appears to piece together what is assumed as a puzzle that is apart in Rev, which their particular chronology supposedly glues it together properly. I am very suspicious about any construct that assumes a chronology that may not be correct, but is justified by forcing that chronology on the scripture. Each one of them uses a twist of favorite proof texts to support their position.
TD

It's all about the full context written between Genesis through Revelation (the beginning and the end) as we part ourself from what man teaches and read and believe that for what has already been written.

 

[Edward]

I used to hard core pre-trib myself. But not any more. It has to be either mid-trib or post trib and I lean towards mid trib because I do not think that Jesus would be like, ok dear Bride, first I will beat the crap out of you and then we'll go to dinner...

So mid-trib, meaning the middle of the 7 year period, or right before it gets real bad. I believe the church at large will be on the earth and go through the tribulation. Only the Bride will be gone.

And the taking of a very few...will open up the hearts and eyes of many fence sitters and the lukewarm. They will know that they were left behind and so will get very serious. And then the harvest after that...will be plenteous and huge!

 

[for_his_glory]

I used to hard core pre-trib myself. But not any more. It has to be either mid-trib or post trib and I lean towards mid trib because I do not think that Jesus would be like, ok dear Bride, first I will beat the crap out of you and then we'll go to dinner...

So mid-trib, meaning the middle of the 7 year period, or right before it gets real bad. I believe the church at large will be on the earth and go through the tribulation. Only the Bride will be gone.

And the taking of a very few...will open up the hearts and eyes of many fence sitters and the lukewarm. They will know that they were left behind and so will get very serious. And then the harvest after that...will be plenteous and huge!

What makes you think God's true Church is not the Bride of Christ?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days are the future events of the seven trumpets for at the end of the last trumpet sounding then Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming as He sends His angels out to gather all, dead and alive that are His own.

There are many other scriptures, but this one really clarifies what Jesus said. How can one really refute those scriptures as this was Jesus speaking that which will come in the end of days. I know everyone has their own belief, but I can not see any pretrib or midtrib, but everything ending on the last day when Christ returns and we are then caught up to Him.

 

[Edward]

What makes you think God's true Church is not the Bride of Christ?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days are the future events of the seven trumpets for at the end of the last trumpet sounding then Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming as He sends His angels out to gather all, dead and alive that are His own.

There are many other scriptures, but this one really clarifies what Jesus said. How can one really refute those scriptures as this was Jesus speaking that which will come in the end of days. I know everyone has their own belief, but I can not see any pretrib or midtrib, but everything ending on the last day when Christ returns and we are then caught up to Him.

I believe there's going to be two harvests actually. One for His Bride and raptures who...and few there be that find it...
it will be that many Christians who will be saved, but they are not ready yet, and after being left behind they get serious and cleaan up their act but will go through the tribulation period. He comes for His Bride, and she will be unblemished and without spot. I dont have my notes right in front of me about all this but I went through all of this and remember my conclusions. The Lord's bride will suffer but will not go through the trib or at least all of it. And multitudes will be turning to Christ after some people are gone and they were left behind. Which will make a huge last day harvest for Him!

And...I don't feel spotless. I am not ready! I do not want to miss the marriage supper of the lamb! Not everyone gets in it says. You have to have a fine linen white robe to get in. It's in scripture. And the Lord taking a very few as His bride and not making Her suffer the worst of it...is how the Lord rolls. He has too much love for His Bride to make her suffer the worst. That makes so much sense to me.