Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[Edward]

This actually takes us back to covenant theology. Jesus came as a servant. Then, I guess it was when Jesus got baptized, and the dove came and the voice from heaven spoke and said, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.../ So it was then that Jesus received sonship. He came into His inheritance. And we have the power to become sons of God...it says so. So, if so, then all oif that 4 part covenant has to be true. Now Him receiving sonship did not negate His being a servant and He still is, So why would the total church, everyone be the Bride of Christ? Not even all will attain sonship/

It doesn't actually say that everyone who will be saved is the Bride of Christ anywhere in scripture, does it?
So it's servant,friend, son, Bride. As our relationship with Him becomes closer. In OT it talks about it like, ankle deep, shin deep, waist deep, and swimming in Him over our head. Remember?

 

[Anto9us2]

Sounds like "levels of Christians"...

 

[Anto9us2]

"This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the Church."
Ephesians 5:32

Paul writes that after spending part of that 5th chapter writing directly about actual husbands and wives, and comparing husbands/wives with Christ as the head of the Church.

"Great Mystery" it may well be, but the idea of the entire church as Bride of Christ, that idea is not just "pulled out of the Air".

We have power to become Sons of God by BELIEVING, we join the Body of Christ by BELIEVING, we become the Bride of Christ by BELIEVING - else -what? Do we earn these things? Do WORKS determine sonship/brideship? Or does Grace?

Does our FAITH make us son/bride, or does something else?

In any case, this has led far from "normal eschatology", far from "is pre, mid, or post trib rapture correct?"

and into

"do we have to 'do' something different to qualify for sonship/brideship than believing in Christ to become a Christian in the first place?"

 

[Edward]

"This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the Church."
Ephesians 5:32

Paul writes that after spending part of that 5th chapter writing directly about actual husbands and wives, and comparing husbands/wives with Christ as the head of the Church.

"Great Mystery" it may well be, but the idea of the entire church as Bride of Christ, that idea is not just "pulled out of the Air".

We have power to become Sons of God by BELIEVING, we join the Body of Christ by BELIEVING, we become the Bride of Christ by BELIEVING - else -what? Do we earn these things? Do WORKS determine sonship/brideship? Or does Grace?

Does our FAITH make us son/bride, or does something else?

In any case, this has led far from "normal eschatology", far from "is pre, mid, or post trib rapture correct?"

and into

"do we have to 'do' something different to qualify for sonship/brideship than believing in Christ to become a Christian in the first place?"

Yes It does sort of to go that direction and it is not widely understood or agreed upon. we are saved by grace through faith and it is not a works based salvation lest any man should boast, and yet we also read....that faith without works is dead. But it seems to be leading my understanding to, the Lord does reward obedience and we must not be hearers of the word only.

The closer that we draw to our Lord, the closer that He will draw to us. So for me, it is not easy to just say, all I have to do is believe. and not press in to God. I think that it is clear that, there is rank in heaven and A persons servant has some rights within his masters home, right? Ok, and a friend of the Master would have even more rights and privligeges in the home, and sons of the master even more than the friend, and of course the mama, or Bride has even more than the sons & children do. Does that make sense to you?

If it does not, why not? And if it does, then how would one start as a servant and gain frienship? And how does one become (adopted) a son? and a bridegroom...Um...they do not marry everyone do they? It can't be I think.

If everyone who is saved and born again is the Bride of Christ....then who will it be knocking that scripture says, Lord let us in? And He says I never knew you. Which must mean I believe, I never knew you as a Bride...?? Only as a son or friend or servant

I suspect that those who believe only...are lukewarm perhaps and akin to the servant who was given 1 talent and He hid it in the ground instead of putting it to work and gaining more for the Lord. Even what he has will be taken. Right? How would you reconcile these things into a simple we don't have to do anything but believe view?

 

[Anto9us2]

"Then they said unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that he believe on him whom he hath sent."
John 6:28-29

It is far from "simple".

And FAITH
IS
a "work" in this sense.

As to "rank" in heaven, we have many METAPHORS in Scripture regarding the after world.

One could also see "rank in hell" in the "beaten with few stripes - beaten with many stripes" passage. Or what do these "beatings" mean? Are they for the damned, or are they "at the beama judgement seat of Christ" - for Christians?

 

[Anto9us2]

I have an uneasy feeling about any theology that proposes that the repentant thief on the cross is a "lower-ranking Christian" than other Christians.

I agree with tdidymus' s statement above that says no eschatology thus far proposed is adequate.

 

[Anto9us2]

We have all these METAPHORS, and I am not sure we even ought to try to reconcile them.

We have Jesus saying people in the resurrection are not given in marriage, period, but are like the angels in that regard. So "Bride of Christ" is a METAPHOR, as is "to become the sons of God". Only Christ is actual Son of God, without human father.

So I perceive in this thread that someone's eschatology may be influenced by some deeper, elaborate theology that drives interpretation of things purely eschatological.

 

[Anto9us2]

"Least in the kingdom - great in the kingdom" - another METAPHOR which could be viewed to support RANK IN HEAVEN.

But METAPHORS are direct comparisons of one thing to another, it's understood they are not really the same thing.

Btw, earlier I had a typo in John 6:29, it should be "ye" - not "he"

 

[Edward]

That's perfectly ok for you to believe any thing you want to. I'm not being dogmatic here, just stating what I personally believe. Is build up your treasures in heaven a metaphor? (I think) that all of us would want to have an anointing from God. So does God just go pick people randomly to give an anointing to? I think that Peter could not have walked on water unless he...got out of the boat.

In the long run, if I am wrong, then so be it. But I would rather err in faith than not.

I do know that there are metaphors used in scripture. I also know that I began understanding more of it when I began reading it from my spirit instead of from my carnal intellect. Bless you Brother.

 

[JLB]

I believe there's going to be two harvests actually. One for His Bride and raptures who...and few there be that find it...
it will be that many Christians who will be saved, but they are not ready yet, and after being left behind they get serious and cleaan up their act but will go through the tribulation period. He comes for His Bride, and she will be unblemished and without spot. I dont have my notes right in front of me about all this but I went through all of this and remember my conclusions. The Lord's bride will suffer but will not go through the trib or at least all of it. And multitudes will be turning to Christ after some people are gone and they were left behind. Which will make a huge last day harvest for Him!

And...I don't feel spotless. I am not ready! I do not want to miss the marriage supper of the lamb! Not everyone gets in it says. You have to have a fine linen white robe to get in. It's in scripture. And the Lord taking a very few as His bride and not making Her suffer the worst of it...is how the Lord rolls. He has too much love for His Bride to make her suffer the worst. That makes so much sense to me.

Please consider that the rapture and resurrection occur at His coming, in which all His people are gathered together, who are in heaven (dead in Christ), as well as those who alive and remain on earth.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



All His people will be gathered together, to be with Him,
at His coming.


Paul emphasizes this point in both letters to the Thessalonians.

• concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4





JLB

 

[Anto9us2]

Bless you too, Edward - or is it Edward - to be correct?

Yeah, Peter had to get out and start walking.

 

[Anto9us2]

Isaiah 40:5

Could be in with those verses, JLB.

 

[Edward]

Please consider that the rapture and resurrection occur at His coming, in which all His people are gathered together, who are in heaven (dead in Christ), as well as those who alive and remain on earth.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



All His people will be gathered together, to be with Him,
at His coming.


Paul emphasizes this point in both letters to the Thessalonians.

• concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4





JLB

Well, this part

All His people will be gathered together, to be with Him,
at His coming.

Is it possible that He is speaking about the final harvest (Which would be after the rapture)? and those will not precede those who have fallen asleep is a reference to the transformation. The Bride may be able to attend the Marriage Supper in spirit still, not having been transformed.

Everything has to agree with the entirety of scripture, right? Or perhaps some believe that the Marriage Supper will be here on earth? So we would meet Him in the clouds and then come right back down to earth? That doesn't exactly jive to me.

So I think from how you lay out these scriptures and your view, that essentially, there will not be a rapturing out of any portion of the Lord's people? That, the day of the Lord, is it and His only coming in our future?

And that made me think, So what are the instances of rapture in scripture telling us then? I can think of 3 off of the top of my head. Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. So are any of those metaphors? Enoch can not precede us so really was not raptured up? Or what am I missing?

You see? Therein is the difficulty in rapture views, pre, mid, or post. A good case can be made for any of them. But I keep reminding myself that, any of the views must agree with the entirety of scripture. and to me, pre trib absolutely does not so this is a great thread, and it seems that post trib may not either.

 

[Edward]

Bless you too, Edward - or is it Edward - to be correct?

Yeah, Peter had to get out and start walking.

Edward is correct. (I am not sure of the difference in what you wrote! Edward? or Edward? It's Edward, lol!)

 

[Anto9us2]

I think we are supposed to put an @ before usernames - don't know why.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe there's going to be two harvests actually. One for His Bride and raptures who...and few there be that find it...
it will be that many Christians who will be saved, but they are not ready yet, and after being left behind they get serious and cleaan up their act but will go through the tribulation period. He comes for His Bride, and she will be unblemished and without spot. I dont have my notes right in front of me about all this but I went through all of this and remember my conclusions. The Lord's bride will suffer but will not go through the trib or at least all of it. And multitudes will be turning to Christ after some people are gone and they were left behind. Which will make a huge last day harvest for Him!

And...I don't feel spotless. I am not ready! I do not want to miss the marriage supper of the lamb! Not everyone gets in it says. You have to have a fine linen white robe to get in. It's in scripture. And the Lord taking a very few as His bride and not making Her suffer the worst of it...is how the Lord rolls. He has too much love for His Bride to make her suffer the worst. That makes so much sense to me.

There is only one harvest judgement and that is found in Matthew 13:24-30; Rev 14:14-20. In vs. 11 of Rev 14 this is an angel that sits on the white cloud that is likened to the Son of man. This angel represents the authority of Christ to command the other angels to thrust in their sickles as now the time of judgement has come as the wheat is being separated from the tares that took the mark of the beast right before the seven vial judgements begin.

These vial judgements will not fall on those who are of Christ own that have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. The wheat meaning those Christians that are truly of Christ and have His seal upon their foreheads (not Literally, but Spiritually) that have come out unscathed by the seven trumpets of God's great wrath as they did not fall to temptation as they are kept by Christ as He provides for them.

Matthew 24:29-31 makes it very clear Jesus only returns once and at that time after the tribulation of God's mighty wrath and after the seven vial judgements He sends His angels out to gather all who are His own, Rev 1:7; John 5:28, 29; John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. There is no second chance for anyone like all these Pastors like to teach as once Jesus comes back every eye will see Him coming in the clouds and at that time all who are alive at His coming that are His own will will be joined with those who are resurrected from their graves as then we will be with the Lord forever.

None of us will ever be spotless until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality as as a twinkling of an eye we will be changed when Chtist returns. We are to keep our self spotless from the world and sometimes we miss the mark on this, but do strive for that perfection as we become the image of Christ here on earth and let His light shine in us and through us.

 

[for_his_glory]

This actually takes us back to covenant theology. Jesus came as a servant. Then, I guess it was when Jesus got baptized, and the dove came and the voice from heaven spoke and said, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.../ So it was then that Jesus received sonship. He came into His inheritance. And we have the power to become sons of God...it says so. So, if so, then all oif that 4 part covenant has to be true. Now Him receiving sonship did not negate His being a servant and He still is, So why would the total church, everyone be the Bride of Christ? Not even all will attain sonship/

It doesn't actually say that everyone who will be saved is the Bride of Christ anywhere in scripture, does it?
So it's servant,friend, son, Bride. As our relationship with Him becomes closer. In OT it talks about it like, ankle deep, shin deep, waist deep, and swimming in Him over our head. Remember?

How do we inherit the kingdom of God and receive power to become the sons of God? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and John 1:12-14 teaches us how to do this.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Not all will attain sonship that go to church as many within the church only give lip service to the Lord and are none of His own as they have never been Spiritually born again from above or have the seal of God
set on them till the day of redemption, Matthew 7:21-29; Ephesians 4:30.

The Bride of Christ are those who have received Him in their hearts as Lord and Savior as they believe by faith that Jesus truly is the Son of God and have been Spiritually born again from above and have received eternal life with the Father. The Bride of Christ are those made righteous by that of God's righteousness that are sanctified and cleansed by the washing of water by the word, Ephesians 5:21-27. This is the Bride that the Bridegroom (Jesus) will return for as they will be with Him forever.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think that it is clear that, there is rank in heaven and A persons servant has some rights within his masters home, right?

There is no rank in the New Jerusalem nor a persons servant.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think we are supposed to put an @ before usernames - don't know why.

The reason for that is to let others know you are speaking about them in your replies either directly or indirectly as addressing them.

 

[JLB]

Is it possible that He is speaking about the final harvest (Which would be after the rapture)?

I can only comment on what I know to be for sure.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


To me this should be a solid foundation of understanding that we can build our end time theology on.


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

This is further emphasized again in 1 Corinthians-

• afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23


To me, the phrase “those who are Christ’s”, settles it.


The gathering of all His people, those who are His, will take place at His coming.




JLB