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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Question: Did Jesus Christ Have Two Natures?
- Thread starter Chopper
- Start date
ezrider
Member
As I have been reading through this thread, I have seen a lot of discussion of the "human nature" of Jesus has focused on the flesh nature as through Adam and Eve. Now someone may have mentioned it one of their post's and I did not see it, but when it comes to the Man Jesus; I have not seen any discussion begin with WHO his FATHER was. Jesus was conceived of by the Spirit of the Lord. Jesus was conceived with the WORD already sown in his heart.
So when we look at the human nature of Jesus, we must see him with a heart of flesh. He was not born with a heart of stone like all the rest of mankind. So His human nature was different than the human nature of the stony heart.
A few things to consider:
Jesus was the firstfruit of a new creation. Let that sink in a little. Jesus was the firstfruit of a NEW CREATION.
Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 36:26-27
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Who was this NEW Spirit?
John 14:15-21
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
So when we look at the human nature of Jesus, we must see him with a heart of flesh. He was not born with a heart of stone like all the rest of mankind. So His human nature was different than the human nature of the stony heart.
A few things to consider:
Jesus was the firstfruit of a new creation. Let that sink in a little. Jesus was the firstfruit of a NEW CREATION.
Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 36:26-27
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Who was this NEW Spirit?
John 14:15-21
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Are you suggesting that the "Spirit of truth" is Jesus?
Douglas Summers
Member
I'm surprised at your post on that Scripture that it is humorous. His purpose was to ask of" what things they were talking about so that He could answer what they were discussing (their specific questions) of which He does (Luke 24:25-27)
Deborah13
Member
Not deriding Adam, that is just silly. Adam was not a begotten son of God, was he. He was however created in the image of God without sin. Until....he willingly disobeyed God.
Do you agree with Federal Headship in the family? That the father is responsible for the condition of his family. Paul explains it when he sites what an elder in the church should be.
Adam blow it and sin entered the world through him, not through Eve. Righteousness entered the world through the Christ as the Second Adam and He overcame, He won the victory over sin and death.
This is what we do know for sure......
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Eve was in transgression first but that did not bring sin into the world.
Heb 7:9 and so to speak, through Abraham even Levi who is receiving tithes, hath paid tithes,
Heb 7:10 for he was yet in the loins of the father when Melchisedek met him.
Not in the loins of his mother.
Jesus was not begotten by an earthly father and was born without the original sin.
When you listed all of the line of Mary, each one of the men in the line were begotten by an earthly father and was born with the original sin.
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Shhhh... it's a secret: 'Diety' is in you too, sir.
Verily, your friend Sparrow says to you, "We are joined into Him in a way so profound in its implication that it simply can not enter into our minds *yet*." And although we don't quite know what we shall be, we shall be like HIM! We shall know even as we are known.
So, do ya feel like dancing? **Sparrow flies over, perches on your shoulder as you read and says, "Chirp." Which, translated, means: Take flight. Let your wings flutter and dance in the heavens. Dance before your God like David who donned Priestly garments and was shunned for it.
He sees all things.
Jim Parker
Member
FYI
Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized IN two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
That's what the unified Church decided.
The Syrians and the Copts wanted a slightly different wording. (indicated by color red)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized FROM two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
The difference is subtle but the Copts and Syrians believed their wording avoided Christ being two people and making the Trinity a foursome.
Either way, they agreed that, in Christ, the characteristics of each nature were preserved.
I don't think we are able to do a better job than they did. (At least, I'm sure that I am not able to do so.)
iakov the fool
Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized IN two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
That's what the unified Church decided.
The Syrians and the Copts wanted a slightly different wording. (indicated by color red)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized FROM two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
The difference is subtle but the Copts and Syrians believed their wording avoided Christ being two people and making the Trinity a foursome.
Either way, they agreed that, in Christ, the characteristics of each nature were preserved.
I don't think we are able to do a better job than they did. (At least, I'm sure that I am not able to do so.)
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
Member
(1) Before the incarnation of the Logos, before He was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, there was no Jesus.
(2) Before His incarnation, the Logos was God. (John 1:1)
(3) After the incarnation, when the Logos became flesh, He was still God but was submitted to the Father to be born an infant human being, a creature, Who needed to be fed and have His diaper changed, who needed to grow through the stages of childhood into manhood, Who needed to eat and drink and sleep and work for a living. (None of which did he need to do before He was incarnate.) And, as the man Jesus of Nazareth, He could die.
Other than those types of human limitations, He was still fully God, of one essence with the Father.
iakov the fool
Chopper
Member
Thank you Papa Zoom. I happened, on Friday, to research a Greek scholar on this Scripture....Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross"....
And now my feeling is that you are right. Jesus, the Christ of God the Father had two natures. Fully God & fully man.
NOW, I do question this statement of yours....
Hmm. Jesus is fully human now? I don't know if I'm going to go that far my friend. I'll have to see what my favorite Forum Theologian smaller has to say.
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
I look forward to his comments as well. Bless you my friend.
Chopper
Member
Not only did I "like" but I liked very very much!!!!!!!
Chopper
Member
Hey, you're up late like me. O well, couldn't sleep so I thought I'd see what you were up to. See ya good old bearded friend.
smaller
Member
Adam was God's son, beyond any doubt. But I wouldn't go as far as making Adam sinless at any point.
The distinction of Jesus, as a man, is to have had His Body Fathered by God, through the Holy Ghost, not "formed" from dust as Adam was. God via His Spirit inserted or Fathered Himself into what He originally formed/created. It's an interesting set of contemplations to say the least.
Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
It's impossible to say Jesus was not a human being in every way but ONE, that being without sin. This also shows sin as a matter not necessarily human, which I touched on earlier. We should not presume that the human nature is the only nature involved with sin. It's not. Sin is a matter of adverse spiritual nature, which ALL have been made 'subject to.' I'm a minor expert on 'subject to' clauses as it is commonly used in the legal contracts I spent my working life being involved with.
God made man subject to the spirit of disobedience in the flesh. God did NOT make His Own Body "subject to" the spirit of disobedience.
Therein is the unique difference between Jesus as a human being and all other human beings.
If we pay attention to the details, God is NOT the Father of the spirit of disobedience. When various theological concepts come down the turnpike, such as "Federal Headship," they always tend to one sided non-encompassing sights. They make for great crowd sourcing of various ideas but theology is a tad bit more complicated.
IF we examine the construct of man, we should be seeing man and also the spirit of disobedience in the flesh of man. Therefore there are technically two separate parties involved. And God does have TWO entirely different relationships going on, SIMULTANEOUSLY.
For example, God is simultaneously for and in behalf of good, (the persons) and simultaneously against evil, (the spirit of disobedience.)
Both sights are fixed, immovable, in and by Gods Eyes.
The Federal Headship concept would do itself much better to recognize these distinctions. It becomes even more problematic when we get into the arena of theodicy. God's uses of evil in behalf of people (so that we would understand and partake in GRACE, MERCY and HOPE.) And again we'd have to have the two basic sights above still in mind. IN other words grace, mercy and hope are for humans, but NOT for the spirit of disobedience.
Everytime we make a theological posture, we have to have a full accounting for the opposite sights involved with the spirit of disobedience. Even though this seems rather simple/easy, it's really not.
In Christian theology concepts we are always dealing, simultaneously, with positive and negative aspects. The negative is too often overlooked and disregarded. And even further, if we understand "how" the negative aspects work, that's part of the very real working of the negative. It wants to and is compelled to deny both sides of the ledgers and only lean to one side, including itself, the spirit of disobedience, in the positive. That can't happen in truthful Christian theology.
We maybe should recognize that Eve was already "in Adam" from the moment they were created.
Genesis 5:2
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
We have no record of "blessings" given directly to Eve, post separation or forming by God. She was blessed while "in Adam." Women are technically a picture of our respective "inner man." God created an outer man, a natural man, Adam, and simultaneously an inner man, Eve. This is partly why the "church" is termed a 'woman.'
Jesus is only interested in the "inner man." Not the natural or outer man.
And additionally, IF we pay attentions to the details, the WOMAN is taken out of the man after the deployment of THE LAW, do not eat. This is a reflection of Gods Order. A natural man is formed first. Then comes Gods Words. The natural man doesn't understand, is "asleep and in darkness" resulting from said Word. And an "inner man" is then formed. 1 Cor. 15:46.
And Jesus Himself complied to the same principle. He was first, as a human, a natural man who passed away in death. Just like we do.
The Victory was always and only to be had and held by God Himself, in Christ. There can only be One Truthful Victor. God Himself. Who would want it any other way anyway?
IF we can't trust Eternal Perfection who can we trust?
Sin is a direct result of the spirit of disobedience that is NOT man. See Mark 4:15 and 1 John 3:8 for example of the principle and the outcome that is involved with sin. Sin is a demonic matter, so we have to get the devil into the picture of fact. And the devil will resist that from happening, and will instead try to blame only Adam/Eve or humans only. That's how the devil rolls.
There are no humans who are not direct decedents of both Adam and Eve.
That's not entirely true, above. Yes, Jesus DID have earthly progenitors of His Body, fathers if you will, or the body of Mary would have not been there to give birth to Jesus. We can't remove "man" in the earth body fathers senses from the Body of Jesus, even though Jesus Himself was birthed by God, through the Holy Ghost.
See above about the "spirit of disobedience." No, Jesus did not have that issue. When we talk about "original sin" it is or at least should be a discussion of the devil, not of man.
Well of course there are many MEN in the lineage of Mary, which is directly reflected into the Body of Jesus. He Himself was "born of a woman," an inner man.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Yeah, I like that verse. It proves that Jesus had a sense of humor. He was kidding around with them, He wasn't being serious. I mean, of course He knew those things which had transpired. He was there.
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Soul man
Member
Deb I keep reading things that you are saying; such as Adam was not a son. Great understanding. He wasn't a birthed son, the scriptures are plain in telling us he was "created a living soul."
When I saw that nature comes from a father, Adam recieved wrong nature. There was nothing wrong with his creation, he was created in the image and likeness of God. His problem was having the wrong father, seed, Jesus dealt with the Adamic nature, on the cross.
Well because believers still sin they are tricked into thinking they still have a sin nature.
I'm saying this to say when the believer begins to understand nature, a birthing, an exchange on the cross, and so on, it is very keystone. Possibly the greatest key in our understanding to help unlock the scriptures, is the birthing. As we see in all of Christianity, the scriptures still seem to be very elusive to some, as though we have no absolutes, everyone with an idea that more times than not comes to confusion.
It works in religion to keep it going, but in Christ we have no excuse for a lack of knowledge.
We have the greatest teacher there is, the HolySpirit, but yielding to Him can be a hard decision, being fixed in what we believe and look at the scriptures with our doctrinal glasses, vicious cycle.
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Jim Parker
Member
Absolutely. HE was raised from the dead BODILY.
Luk 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.
And He ascended into heaven like that; He didn't leave His body behind.
iakov the fool
Chopper
Member
Hmm.
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
I agree
He's fully man and fully God even now and will always be that.
Deborah13
Member
I know what you are talking about and have the tendency to agree with you about the 'sin nature/or desire/propensity' to sin, but that would be broadening the subject of this thread.
Deborah13
Member
Yes, created in the image of God, before sin entered. Adam had not yet made his choice and their eyes had not been opened. Their eyes were both opened after Adam ate, not before. So it is said that sin enter the world through Adam's choice. Genesis 3:6-7