Bible Study Rapture

[Douglas Summers]

I’m with Him, now.

However, it’s all relative to what sense we are referring to.


JLB

Hi JLB, If I go to Him before He comes for His Church, My Spirit will be with Him. When He comes for "His" Church (That will be when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in Rom. 11:24-25) Before He attends to Israel (Acts 15:13-18) I will receive my new body along with those still upon the Earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thes. 4:17) before the judgment (wrath of God) on the disobedient. (1 Thes. 5:8-10). BTW, What did you think of Trumps religious council?

 

[for_his_glory]

These pre-trib theories started with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first told others of a vision she had in 1830. She admitted the vision seemed evil and dark, but many preachers of that time ran with it and eventually their teachings were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something as it sounds logical, but yet not scriptural.

The seven trumpets beginning in Revelation 8:6 and ending on the last day when Christ returns are all about Gods wrath being poured out upon all nations and has everything to do with Gods Salvation. Many during this time will repent and turn back to God as they will finally have ears to hear the gospel being preached to them by all those who are still alive at this time and have Gods anointing to preach the Gospel. There are no separate trumpets for the saints and sinners as there are only seven that are sounded by the angels as God sends each one out as the soundings brings in all of Gods wrath upon those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him. God said that He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9. Even though God's longsuffering and patience will come to an end as everyone will have an opportunity to repent as the Gospels will have been preached to everyone, but it is only those who will accept Gods free gift of grace, Ephesians 2:8, by faith will be saved. All Christians including those who at this time of the end have finally accepted Jesus will have eternal life with the Father.

There are three woes in Revelations as each one is worse than the other. The first one starts with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8:1 through Rev 9:12 that include the first five trumpets. The second woe starts in Rev 9:13 with the sixth trumpet and ends in Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 ending in Rev 20:15.

It's during the sounding of the seventh trumpet as being the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that during this last trumpet mystery Babylon being the mother of harlots will be revealed as the the son of perdition will be exposed, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This is the false prophet as he forces all to bow down to him and take the mark of the beast or face persecution even to death as many saints of God at this time will die a martyr's death for their witness and testimony of Christ. Many who are weak in faith will fall away from Christ as they accept this mark as they fear for their own lives as this is the falling away the scriptures speak of in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and Hebrews 6:4-6 as many will be deceived as even now by all the false doctrines that are being taught by man.

It's not until after the seven vial judgements, Rev 16, that mystery Babylon the great is exposed, Rev 17, and then destroyed, Rev 18, as Christ returns in the air with His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21, being only the heavenly host (angels) as no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven, John 3:13. At this time on the last day, John 6:40, Christ will destroy the beast and the false prophet, being the son of perdition, casting them into the lake of fire and slaying the remnant, possibly being the leaders of every nation that the beast out of the sea in Rev 13 controls and gives power to as they rule over the nations.

I do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ when He binds Satan, but it being figurative in its numbering as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8. I believe at this time of Satan being bound the events of John 5:28, 29, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 will occur quickly as there is only one resurrection, but two separate judgements. all who are in their graves will hear the voice of Christ to rise as we who are of Christ., alive and in the grave, will be caught up and gathered to Him and will then be judged and given our rewards, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 11. Those of the second death, Revelation 2:11, 20:6, who have rejected Christ will be judged at the Great White Throne judgment as their names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life. They are cast into the lake of fire where Satan and his army that he gathered from all nations to battle against the camp of the saints, but have been consumed by the fire sent down from heaven and Satan cast into the lake of fire. God then proceeds to renew the heaven and earth and ushers down the New Jerusalem where we will be with the Lord for all eternity, Revelation Chapter 21.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB, If I go to Him before He comes for His Church, My Spirit will be with Him.

Agreed.

When He comes for "His" Church (That will be when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in Rom. 11:24-25)

24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:24-25

No context or mention of the coming of the Lord here.

At the coming of the Lord, all His Church will be gathered together, both those in heaven and those on earth, at the resurrection and rapture.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The resurrection and rapture are one event that happens at His coming.

This is where Jesus comes with His Church in heaven and for His Church on earth, whereby both are caught up together in the air. All His Church together with Him in the clouds above the earth.

Can we agree on this?



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Agreed.




24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:24-25

No context or mention of the coming of the Lord here. You missed the point. The Church body will be completed when the fullness of the Gentile has come in. Once the body is complete, He will call us out. The Church is not going through the tribulation.

At the coming of the Lord, all His Church will be gathered together, both those in heaven and those on earth, at the resurrection and rapture.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The resurrection and rapture are one event that happens at His coming.

This is where Jesus comes with His Church in heaven and for His Church on earth, whereby both are caught up together in the air. All His Church together with Him in the clouds above the earth.

Can we agree on this?



JLB

 

[ezra]

This is where Jesus comes with His Church in heaven and for His Church on earth, whereby both are caught up together in the air. All His Church together with Him in the clouds above the earth.

Can we agree on this?

best post yet-----------------

 

[JLB]

Douglas Summers, post:
You missed the point. The Church body will be completed when the fullness of the Gentile has come in. Once the body is complete, He will call us out. The Church is not going through the tribulation.

please show me where all that is mentioned here in Romans 11:24-25


24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:24-25

I just don’t find what all you said mentioned here in Romans 11:24-25


I’m quoting from “the rapture” section of the Bible and to be honest, it seems like you we can’t even agree on the very things mentioned surrounding the events of the rapture.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The resurrection and rapture are one event that happens at His coming.

This is where Jesus comes with His Church in heaven and for His Church on earth, whereby both are caught up together in the air. All His Church together with Him in the clouds above the earth.

Can we agree on this?



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

best post yet-----------------

Hi Ezra, I believe this too, but where I and JBL differ is that (as or if I understand JLB), He says this rapture of Christ for His Church is at the time of His second coming to destroy the beast and false prophet (or antichrist) which would be after the 7 year tribulation. I believe Christ comes for His church (The meeting in the air) (before or at the beginning of the Tribulation) and return WITH Christ at His second coming. Christ said He would keep us from the trials that will come upon the whole world to test them. Rev. 3:10. (todays visible church is placid and lazy.) and rely upon their self willed knowledge with no works of the Holy Spirit (Epistle of James).

 

[ezra]

Hi Ezra, I believe this too, but where I and JBL differ is that (as or if I understand JLB), He says this rapture of Christ for His Church is at the time of His second coming to destroy the beast and false prophet (or antichrist) which would be after the 7 year tribulation. I believe Christ comes for His church (The meeting in the air) (before or at the beginning of the Tribulation) and return WITH Christ at His second coming. Christ said He would keep us from the trials that will come upon the whole world to test them. Rev. 3:10. (todays visible church is placid and lazy.) and rely upon their self willed knowledge with no works of the Holy Spirit (Epistle of James).

as i understand it Christ comes to take us out of this present world. then he will return to set up his kingdom on the new earth. in between that his wrath all hell will break lose . men wanting to die but they can not .the time line of events i am not sure of . we speak of a 7 year tribulation .is this 7 years as our time or is it in His timing . really dont discuss end time events other than Jesus is coming soon morning or night or noon many will meet there doom trumpets will sound . we have been in the last days since Jesus ascended .yes i believe in the events preceding his return . just not sure of the time line . some will say your taking a safe approach ..no i am just saying be ready for when all the chain events takes place... it will be hell on earth like no one has ever seen.. personally i dont see a Child of God going through his wrath . i have listened to many different teachings and read many different opinions . once again i want to be like the 5 wise virgins ready lamp ready to go with extra oil . iam sure this post will draw many remarks but this is where i stand...

 

[JLB]

Hi Ezra, I believe this too, but where I and JBL differ is that (as or if I understand JLB), He says this rapture of Christ for His Church is at the time of His second coming to destroy the beast and false prophet (or antichrist) which would be after the 7 year tribulation. I believe Christ comes for His church (The meeting in the air) (before or at the beginning of the Tribulation) and return WITH Christ at His second coming. Christ said He would keep us from the trials that will come upon the whole world to test them. Rev. 3:10. (todays visible church is placid and lazy.) and rely upon their self willed knowledge with no works of the Holy Spirit (Epistle of James).

If we take each point, line upon line, from Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, about the coming of the Lord and the resurrection and rapture, I believe you and I will arrive at a common understanding.

If we stay right here in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 to establish the first two foundational points of understanding, we will be well on our way. After all, this is the heart of the rapture doctrine, right here.

I challenge you Doug, and everyone reading this thread, to work with me through these two verses of scripture, to establish a common understanding of what Paul says, concerning the resurrection and rapture.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Here are the key points to consider, in these verses:

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
• the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul is teaching the Church, that at the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive and remain on earth, with be caught up together with them, in the clouds, to be with the Lord in the air.


Do you agree or disagree with my above statement about these two verses of scripture?





JLB

 

[ezra]

Do you agree or disagree with my above statement about these two verses of scripture?

speaking from my point it is silly to disagree on the above scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 if we know he is coming and like the old hymnal song i want to be ready to meet him .like the hide and seek game we played as kids ready or not here he comes . i want to be ready

 

[Douglas Summers]

If we take each point, line upon line, from Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, about the coming of the Lord and the resurrection and rapture, I believe you and I will arrive at a common understanding.

If we stay right here in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 to establish the first two foundational points of understanding, we will be well on our way. After all, this is the heart of the rapture doctrine, right here.

I challenge you Doug, and everyone reading this thread, to work with me through these two verses of scripture, to establish a common understanding of what Paul says, concerning the resurrection and rapture.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Here are the key points to consider, in these verses:

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
• the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul is teaching the Church, that at the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive and remain on earth, with be caught up together with them, in the clouds, to be with the Lord in the air.


Do you agree or disagree with my above statement about these two verses of scripture?





JLB

I agree with what the Scripture says, I disagree with the fact that you think the coming of the Lord (at that time) is His second advent, Everything Paul is saying is about the Church and it's body (those who are alive and those who have passed (the dead in Christ "Church") Christ return to earth is not meant here. It will be 7 years later. The whole reason for the Epistles were for those who were going through great persecution (2 Thes. 1:3-12) (thought the Church had been raptured) and they were left behind by letters and gossip (2 Thes. 2:1-17). All of this started with Paul's first Epistle to the Thessalonians, telling them that they were not appointed to wrath (1 Thes. 5:1-11)

 

[JLB]

I agree with what the Scripture says, I disagree with the fact that you think the coming of the Lord

Do you disagree that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming?


Those who are alive and remain until His coming, refer to those who are raptured.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Here are the key points to consider, in these verses:

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
• the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

JLB

 

[JLB]

All of this started with Paul's first Epistle to the Thessalonians, telling them that they were not appointed to wrath (1 Thes. 5:1-11)

Exactly, we are discussing Paul's first epistle to the Thessalonians, where he teaches us that the resurrection and rapture happen at His coming.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The Church will be caught up in the air, in the clouds with the Lord, then He will pour out His wrath upon the wicked, which includes the antichrist. The Church will be safely with Him high above the earth, when His wrath is poured out.









JLB

 

[New Day Coming]

Douglas Summers

I found this concept helpful in Bible interpretation...

That is the similarity of Bible interpretation to Sudoku (no really ;-)

The grid starts with certain fixed elements and from those you derive, using the law of non-contradiction, the remaining squares. You are not given every number, just a starting point. From that starting point, with time and effort, conclusions about the other numbers can be arrived at.

Sometimes people race ahead and identify a certainty where it was only a possibility, other times they fail to take account essential fixed numbers and try to fix the puzzle by ignoring the conflict.

Some squares could have a couple of possibilities and may not get resolved till later in the puzzle.

Just so you know, I am pre-trib (though I used to be post) but I rarely try to change anyone's view on it as post trib Christians will get raptured too (if I'm right) and get a pleasant surprise (even if they were preppers!).

 

[JLB]

Douglas Summers

I found this concept helpful in Bible interpretation...

That is the similarity of Bible interpretation to Sudoku (no really ;-)

The grid starts with certain fixed elements and from those you derive, using the law of non-contradiction, the remaining squares. You are not given every number, just a starting point. From that starting point, with time and effort, conclusions about the other numbers can be arrived at.

Sometimes people race ahead and identify a certainty where it was only a possibility, other times they fail to take account essential fixed numbers and try to fix the puzzle by ignoring the conflict.

Some squares could have a couple of possibilities and may not get resolved till later in the puzzle.

Just so you know, I am pre-trib (though I used to be post) but I rarely try to change anyone's view on it as post trib Christians will get raptured too (if I'm right) and get a pleasant surprise (even if they were preppers!).

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Based on this scripture from Paul, about the resurrection and rapture, do you see that he is teaching the resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord?


Paul says those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede, or be caught up, before the dead in Christ.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Douglas Summers

I found this concept helpful in Bible interpretation...

That is the similarity of Bible interpretation to Sudoku (no really ;-)

The grid starts with certain fixed elements and from those you derive, using the law of non-contradiction, the remaining squares. You are not given every number, just a starting point. From that starting point, with time and effort, conclusions about the other numbers can be arrived at.

Sometimes people race ahead and identify a certainty where it was only a possibility, other times they fail to take account essential fixed numbers and try to fix the puzzle by ignoring the conflict.

Some squares could have a couple of possibilities and may not get resolved till later in the puzzle.

Just so you know, I am pre-trib (though I used to be post) but I rarely try to change anyone's view on it as post trib Christians will get raptured too (if I'm right) and get a pleasant surprise (even if they were preppers!).

Greeting NDC, There are many false believers and prophets in Christendom. Men can error in doctrine, but IF they are seeking God's teachings (looking to God) and not on their own understanding, they will not stay in error. God speaks and teaches His own (God gives the increase) (1 Cor. 3:6-8) (1 John 2:27). And once we die to self and live unto Christ, we are no longer servants, but we have graduated to friends of Christ....for He has made known to us what is the work of the Father (John 15:15-16). Godly men can give us Scripture, but ONLY God gives us the TRUTH. And as we mature in Christ, we become brethren with Christ (John 20:17). This is what "adoption" of sons mean....not taking someone outside the family and adopting them into a family, but it means taking a Child and making Him an adult son (maturity) (Gal.4:1-7)

 

[JLB]

Greeting NDC, There are many false believers and prophets in Christendom. Men can error in doctrine, but IF they are seeking God's teachings (looking to God) and not on their own understanding, they will not stay in error. God speaks and teaches His own (God gives the increase) (1 Cor. 3:6-8) (1 John 2:27). And once we die to self and live unto Christ, we are no longer servants, but we have graduated to friends of Christ....for He has made known to us what is the work of the Father (John 15:15-16). Godly men can give us Scripture, but ONLY God gives us the TRUTH. And as we mature in Christ, we become brethren with Christ (John 20:17). This is what "adoption" of sons mean....not taking someone outside the family and adopting them into a family, but it means taking a Child and making Him an adult son (maturity) (Gal.4:1-7)

Do you disagree that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming?


Those who are alive and remain until His coming, refer to those who are raptured.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Glory, Sorry, I do not understand any of those Scripture as you have interpreted them...I'am looking for the Lord to take His Body out of harms way before the tribulation of Israel begins. (Jacobs trouble Jer. 30:1-12)

In post #4 All those scriptures I gave in Revelations teaches us that those who are alive and in Christ during the time of God's great wrath (seven trumpet tribulation period) and the seven vile judgements God will keep us from His wrath falling on us. During the time of the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the Earth being the son of perdition in Rev 13 many that are in Christ will die a martyr's death as they refuse to bow down to the beast and take his mark. It is not until we read in Rev 19 that Christ will return at that time with His army of angels and destroyes the beast and false prophet (son of perdition) and then we who are asleep in the grave and still alive at His coming will then be caught up to Christ after Satan is bound. Rev is very chronicle in the events that will take place before Christ returns.

 

[New Day Coming]

Greeting NDC, There are many false believers and prophets in Christendom. Men can error in doctrine, but IF they are seeking God's teachings (looking to God) and not on their own understanding, they will not stay in error. God speaks and teaches His own (God gives the increase) (1 Cor. 3:6-8) (1 John 2:27). And once we die to self and live unto Christ, we are no longer servants, but we have graduated to friends of Christ....for He has made known to us what is the work of the Father (John 15:15-16). Godly men can give us Scripture, but ONLY God gives us the TRUTH. And as we mature in Christ, we become brethren with Christ (John 20:17). This is what "adoption" of sons mean....not taking someone outside the family and adopting them into a family, but it means taking a Child and making Him an adult son (maturity) (Gal.4:1-7)

I always wondered how the post trib view could make sense of the idea that people will somehow be saying peace and safety, with life going on as normal at the conclusion of the "Day of the Lord". In addition, even I (who suck at maths) am able to calculate 7 years from the commencement of the Antichrists treaty so the thief in the night concept can't really hold at the end of the trib.

1 Thessalonians 5

"1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Do you disagree that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming?

I disagree with your doctrine of that Scripture.