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Salvation by faith alone/only?
- Thread starter Frodo
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Bob Carabbio
Member
DEAD faith will not do it!
TRUE!! dead faith isn't "Faith at all", of course. and since it's FAITH that saves, - obviously "No faith" doesn't.
Simple as that.
TRUE!! dead faith isn't "Faith at all", of course. and since it's FAITH that saves, - obviously "No faith" doesn't.
Simple as that.
Bob Carabbio
Member
"Obedient faith"??
"Obedient faith" is a redundant statement. There's no such thing as "Disobedient Faith". As a matter of fact IF one DOES NOT move according to, and as a result of the FAITH that he has, then it's simply a conclusive demonstration that there really WAS NO "Faith" at all - which is what James is all about.
It's totally clear that James is saying that if WHAT YOU CALL "Faith" produces NOTHING in terms of resultant action, then it's not faith at all - just "hot air".
Some CofC hardliners have invented something they call "Dead Faith" which is nothing but a contradiction of terms, and non-existent.
Biblical FAITH according to Heb 11:1 is defined as being a SUBSTANCE - a unquestionable REALITY of the thing that you're HOPING for (i.e. it isn't there yet, but you KNOW that you already have it), and Faith is an EVIDENCE of what you can't see - it ESTABLISHES the REALITY of the thing - even though it's not there - yet.
98% of what the church CALLS "Faith" - really isn't "Faith at all" - since there's no REALITY/SUBSTANCE to it.
Abraham is presented early on as an EXAMPLE of faith. God says "kill your son" - and Abe set out to do just that - but tells the folks with him that "WE WILL return to you".
Abe's "Righteousness" is the direct result of his FAITH in God. Same as ours. Abe's faith CAUSED HIM to do certain things as a result. But the THINGS he did didn't "Save" him - his FAITH did.
Simple as that.
"Obedient faith" is a redundant statement. There's no such thing as "Disobedient Faith". As a matter of fact IF one DOES NOT move according to, and as a result of the FAITH that he has, then it's simply a conclusive demonstration that there really WAS NO "Faith" at all - which is what James is all about.
It's totally clear that James is saying that if WHAT YOU CALL "Faith" produces NOTHING in terms of resultant action, then it's not faith at all - just "hot air".
Some CofC hardliners have invented something they call "Dead Faith" which is nothing but a contradiction of terms, and non-existent.
Biblical FAITH according to Heb 11:1 is defined as being a SUBSTANCE - a unquestionable REALITY of the thing that you're HOPING for (i.e. it isn't there yet, but you KNOW that you already have it), and Faith is an EVIDENCE of what you can't see - it ESTABLISHES the REALITY of the thing - even though it's not there - yet.
98% of what the church CALLS "Faith" - really isn't "Faith at all" - since there's no REALITY/SUBSTANCE to it.
Abraham is presented early on as an EXAMPLE of faith. God says "kill your son" - and Abe set out to do just that - but tells the folks with him that "WE WILL return to you".
Abe's "Righteousness" is the direct result of his FAITH in God. Same as ours. Abe's faith CAUSED HIM to do certain things as a result. But the THINGS he did didn't "Save" him - his FAITH did.
Simple as that.
Re: "Obedient faith"??
Way to cut through the semantics of this conversation. Either a person trusts God or they don't, and if He says all men are liars and fools we best consider it and humble ourselves.
francisdesales
Member
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Not according to James 2. Even the devil believes that God exists. That is faith, according to James. And that faith doesn't save. Obviously, faith without something does not save, that is very clear in James
Regards
Not according to James 2. Even the devil believes that God exists. That is faith, according to James. And that faith doesn't save. Obviously, faith without something does not save, that is very clear in James
Regards
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Respectfully, you've equated trust with believing in the existence of God. Satan does not trust God nor does he regard any high power as scripture says.
francisdesales
Member
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Larry, just read James, he does, as well.
He says the devil believes - and Christians do well to do the same. As if such faith is not enough. Belief is another way of saying "faith", according to the writer of Hebrews.
Now, granted, one COULD protract the definition of "faith" to include MANY things - even our entire walk. The Bible does this sometimes, probably confusing some people. However, the context of James doesn't allow it, because the concept of "works" is something independent from "faith", and by works, we are made just - according to James. Of course, this means that we are not justified by faith (belief in God) alone OR works alone...
"Obedience" and "faith" do NOT necessarily follow. Anyone who thinks that faith always produces good works misses the point of James 2 and for some reason cannot see that James is chastizing Chrisitans for that very same mindset!!! The REASON for writing James 2 was to DENY that concept! Christians were not obeying the royal law, even though they had faith!!!
Their faith was dead, not salvific - good in that it believed in God, but not good enough to save without doing something.
Regards
Larry, just read James, he does, as well.
He says the devil believes - and Christians do well to do the same. As if such faith is not enough. Belief is another way of saying "faith", according to the writer of Hebrews.
Now, granted, one COULD protract the definition of "faith" to include MANY things - even our entire walk. The Bible does this sometimes, probably confusing some people. However, the context of James doesn't allow it, because the concept of "works" is something independent from "faith", and by works, we are made just - according to James. Of course, this means that we are not justified by faith (belief in God) alone OR works alone...
"Obedience" and "faith" do NOT necessarily follow. Anyone who thinks that faith always produces good works misses the point of James 2 and for some reason cannot see that James is chastizing Chrisitans for that very same mindset!!! The REASON for writing James 2 was to DENY that concept! Christians were not obeying the royal law, even though they had faith!!!
Their faith was dead, not salvific - good in that it believed in God, but not good enough to save without doing something.
Regards
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Your statement that James is saying faith and obedience do not necessarily follow is the exact opposite of what I get when I read it. Moreover he says that a man must ask in faith without wavering to receive anything from God. Faith precedes obedience or it is simply patronizing, for who asks for wisdom in faith unless they believe only God can give it to them? And once having received wisdom by asking in faith, who then is so unwise so as to consider disobedience to God? I do believe we would all agree if it were not for the inherent semantics of words.
If Satan trusts God, why did he bet against Gods' evaluation of Job? Why does he rebel against that which he trusts? You speak of works as does James and this in the context that we must be doing Godly acts if indeed God is in us. Given that this is his point, it is understandable that he would say believing in God is not enough although he is intentionally downplaying the statement "I believe" as insincere if one has no good works. This is arguing semantics therefore, for who sincerely trusts Love but does not act out of it?
Your statement that James is saying faith and obedience do not necessarily follow is the exact opposite of what I get when I read it. Moreover he says that a man must ask in faith without wavering to receive anything from God. Faith precedes obedience or it is simply patronizing, for who asks for wisdom in faith unless they believe only God can give it to them? And once having received wisdom by asking in faith, who then is so unwise so as to consider disobedience to God? I do believe we would all agree if it were not for the inherent semantics of words.
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Nick
Member
Nice.
I wanted to put the Abraham/Isaac example in my post, but ti was late at night and it just wasn't coming out well.
By the New Covenant, we are saved by faith alone. That is, we are saved by faith alone in accordance to the New Covenant. However, we also need to fulfill the covenant by delivering the correct kind of faith as required by God and is specified in the Covenant. Just as said in the Book of James, even the devil believe God's existence but that's not the correct kind of faith as required by the Covenant for one to be saved.
Now the key is how will humans identify such a "correct kind of faith". God doesn't have such a problem. That's why when He sits in the Judgment Throne, He just easily points out who shall be saved and who's not. Not all those with "O Lord O Lord" in their mouth will be saved. Because God judges hearts and knows who is who with ease. But men can't judge heart to say that "he's saved" or "she's saved". We can't know how to judge others as well as ourselves. That's why we are told not to judge.
But still we humans need a close reference to identify or to estimate what a "correct kind of faith" should be. We approach to identify this through one's WORK. Say, if you are a totally paralysed person incapable of doing any WORK. Then perhaps no human can remotely make a guess whether you posses the correct kind of faith to be saved. In this case, only God knows if you are a second born and saved person.
As for normal persons in majority, we can roughly tell by one's current (or pass) performance in WORK to say "this guy seems to be a second born Christian". That is without WORK and as a normal person, perhaps your faith is not the kind of faith as specified by the Covenant and required by God for you to be saved. Only with good work you and others can bear good witnessing to say that you are truly a second born Christian. It is thus said that faith without work is death.
One can be saved by faith alone. WORK, as an indicator, however tells if one possesses the correct kind of faith to be saved. If you can't be with good work, most likely your faith doesn't qualify. You could be in the category of those saying "O Lord, O Lord" but might not be saved.
Now the key is how will humans identify such a "correct kind of faith". God doesn't have such a problem. That's why when He sits in the Judgment Throne, He just easily points out who shall be saved and who's not. Not all those with "O Lord O Lord" in their mouth will be saved. Because God judges hearts and knows who is who with ease. But men can't judge heart to say that "he's saved" or "she's saved". We can't know how to judge others as well as ourselves. That's why we are told not to judge.
But still we humans need a close reference to identify or to estimate what a "correct kind of faith" should be. We approach to identify this through one's WORK. Say, if you are a totally paralysed person incapable of doing any WORK. Then perhaps no human can remotely make a guess whether you posses the correct kind of faith to be saved. In this case, only God knows if you are a second born and saved person.
As for normal persons in majority, we can roughly tell by one's current (or pass) performance in WORK to say "this guy seems to be a second born Christian". That is without WORK and as a normal person, perhaps your faith is not the kind of faith as specified by the Covenant and required by God for you to be saved. Only with good work you and others can bear good witnessing to say that you are truly a second born Christian. It is thus said that faith without work is death.
One can be saved by faith alone. WORK, as an indicator, however tells if one possesses the correct kind of faith to be saved. If you can't be with good work, most likely your faith doesn't qualify. You could be in the category of those saying "O Lord, O Lord" but might not be saved.
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francisdesales
Member
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Larry, I didn't say anything about "trust" and Satan... Please read what I wrote. I said that James defines faith differently than you do. He notes that satan has faith that God exists. Just as Christians do. James points out that this sort of faith does not save.
That's because you are reading your own ideas INTO the actual Scriptures. I fail to see how anyone could get that "faith" in James 2 INCLUDED faithful obedience to the Royal Law, for that is the entire reason for James writing his second chapter, to call OUT FROM CHRISTIANS obedience - works that show our faith.
That definition is not used in James 2. James is not speaking about trusting in God in James 2.
Regards
Larry, I didn't say anything about "trust" and Satan... Please read what I wrote. I said that James defines faith differently than you do. He notes that satan has faith that God exists. Just as Christians do. James points out that this sort of faith does not save.
That's because you are reading your own ideas INTO the actual Scriptures. I fail to see how anyone could get that "faith" in James 2 INCLUDED faithful obedience to the Royal Law, for that is the entire reason for James writing his second chapter, to call OUT FROM CHRISTIANS obedience - works that show our faith.
That definition is not used in James 2. James is not speaking about trusting in God in James 2.
Regards
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Yes I know you are not saying James is applying trust as a definition of Satan's faith in God. I really see no point in debating semantics. I am not advocating disobedience nor unbelief. I am not disagreeing with your intention to point out faith is dead without works nor is anyone else here as far as I am able to discern. We're all saying the same thing just in different ways.
My point about faith applied to trusting as in asking for wisdom and trusting He will give it to you is in James 1.
francisdesales
Member
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
So you agree that faith in God without obedience to Him is dead?
Regards
So you agree that faith in God without obedience to Him is dead?
Regards
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Yes I agree. Yet I would go further and say it was never faith at all if there were never obedience through such so called faith. The point being that true faith accomplishes all things. Either we believe in Holiness or we are in fact trusting in corruption. I am using a subjective view in that statement so I do not mean to imply trusting in corruption is faith. All terms are relative to an absolute in my view. Only faith pointed at God is therefore true faith.
Yes I agree. Yet I would go further and say it was never faith at all if there were never obedience through such so called faith. The point being that true faith accomplishes all things. Either we believe in Holiness or we are in fact trusting in corruption. I am using a subjective view in that statement so I do not mean to imply trusting in corruption is faith. All terms are relative to an absolute in my view. Only faith pointed at God is therefore true faith.
F
felix
Guest
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Jas 2:19-20 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (G4100 πιστεύω pisteuo) -- and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith (G4102 πίστις pistis) without works is dead?
Well, the issue really is something to do with a man's inner self that cannot be put in words or debated. When a man say he believes in God, only he and God knows how truly he believes.
Simply believing in Jesus Christ like the devil and many Hindus is not going to save anyone. I have many Hindu friends who believe that Jesus Christ is Son of God along with their other 1000 gods.
In the book James, it was clearly pointed out the fact that you cannot have a dead faith if you truly believe in Christ because the person will start showing the works and fruits of Holy Spirit.
We are justified by 'Faith in Jesus Christ'. But what is this? Does Scripture has a definition?
Faith in Jesus Christ = Righteousness + Self Control + Judgment
Scripture says, righteousness, self-control and guarding ourselves from the coming judgment is Faith in Jesus Christ. So, if anyone believes in Christ and yet no fruits are produced, he is like a chaff which goes to unquenchable fire (Luk 3:17) and the tree which is cut and thrown into fire (Luk 3:9).
Jas 2:19-20 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (G4100 πιστεύω pisteuo) -- and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith (G4102 πίστις pistis) without works is dead?
Well, the issue really is something to do with a man's inner self that cannot be put in words or debated. When a man say he believes in God, only he and God knows how truly he believes.
Simply believing in Jesus Christ like the devil and many Hindus is not going to save anyone. I have many Hindu friends who believe that Jesus Christ is Son of God along with their other 1000 gods.
In the book James, it was clearly pointed out the fact that you cannot have a dead faith if you truly believe in Christ because the person will start showing the works and fruits of Holy Spirit.
We are justified by 'Faith in Jesus Christ'. But what is this? Does Scripture has a definition?
Faith in Jesus Christ = Righteousness + Self Control + Judgment
Scripture says, righteousness, self-control and guarding ourselves from the coming judgment is Faith in Jesus Christ. So, if anyone believes in Christ and yet no fruits are produced, he is like a chaff which goes to unquenchable fire (Luk 3:17) and the tree which is cut and thrown into fire (Luk 3:9).
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
I do not disagree with you. I do not however share your use of the phrase faith in Christ equated with righteousness, self control, and judgment. Do you believe Jesus is the true Image of God? For if you come to know Jesus you then know the Character of God. Since man was made in God's image we become whatever image of God we believe in. If you believe God is strict and authoritative you also become as such. Look at the Muslims. If you believe He is so kind and merciful that He forgives those who crucify him you become like Him. Having faith in Christ is knowing God in the person of Jesus.
F
felix
Guest
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
The fireman is asking you to run to the exit giving you directions inside a burning house but you don't see the exit.
The fireman is asking you to run to the exit giving you directions inside a burning house but you don't see the exit.
- Running towards the exit is faith in Jesus Christ.
- Walking slowly towards the exit is weak in faith.
- Standing at the same place yet believing in what the fireman said is dead faith
- Not believing the fireman is not faith at all.
francisdesales
Member
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Then you are not realizing that the definition of "faith" is not always the same in Scriptures. Rolling everything into one definition as a "life of faith" is different than the term "faith" - which does NOT equate with "obedience" when separated from a general walk. We must look at the context of Scriptures, and James 2 doesn't allow us to define faith as "our walk in Christ"...
When we analyze our walk in Christ, there are a variety of virtues and attitudes, faith being one of many. Love, hope, repentance, patience, etc. These are not all "faith" - which means, according to Hebrews 11:1:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith leads to obedience, but they are not the same thing.
And thus, James chides Christians who have faith, but not obedience. Paul says the same thing in 1 Cor 13. Larry, you be the judge if faith and obedience to God is the same thing here:
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1 Cor 13:2
Anyone reading that can clearly see that faith alone is NOTHING. Without charity, and with all the faith in the world, you are nothing - not saved... Thus, here, it is clear that faith is NOT equal to obedience in areas of Scripture. It would seem that charity is more important than faith, and it remains, while faith disappears once we see God face to face. Thus, charity is more important than faith. With love, I fulfill ALL the tenets of the Law, says Paul to the Romans... Paul never says this about "faith", does he.
There is no such term that I am aware of in Scriptures - true faith.
Faith is belief in God. How strong is that faith? Is it enough to die to self, to seek out God when it is not convenient? To turn to repentance and change our lives? If it doesn't, it is "dead faith" - which does NOT mean "no faith". Again, read James 2, who notes that Christians have faith. Big deal, even the devil believes that God exists. But I will show you my faith by my works/love (which the Christians James addresses were not, as seen by their mistreatment of the poor.
"True faith" doesn't accomplish anything. God is the impetus behind our accomplishment. In other words, "true faith" is not a chemical reaction that God catalyzes and walks away, watching your 'faith reaction' bubble up and turn into works like some inexorable and inevitable chemical reaction. Faith is among the many gifts God gives us that enables us, in Christ, to do good. But even WITH faith, we STILL require God to move our wills and desires to do good. Faith ALONE doesn't accomplish any good deeds without God. This is clear in the OT, where people SAW God's works and had faith in Him, but then promptly turned to sin, rather than good works. Where was the conveyor belt that self-generated those good works? And in James? They didn't happen there, either.
Again, "having faith in" something, even God, does not in of itself generate good works on auto pilot. I can see why a person who doesn't believe in the will would say this. Love is an act of the will. One must desire -as moved by God - to do good. It doesn't happen while we just watch passively. Having a disposition that includes faith (it is not alone, hope is there, for example) makes us more open to God's promptings to do what we were created to do, good works. (Eph 2:10)
Regards
Then you are not realizing that the definition of "faith" is not always the same in Scriptures. Rolling everything into one definition as a "life of faith" is different than the term "faith" - which does NOT equate with "obedience" when separated from a general walk. We must look at the context of Scriptures, and James 2 doesn't allow us to define faith as "our walk in Christ"...
When we analyze our walk in Christ, there are a variety of virtues and attitudes, faith being one of many. Love, hope, repentance, patience, etc. These are not all "faith" - which means, according to Hebrews 11:1:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith leads to obedience, but they are not the same thing.
And thus, James chides Christians who have faith, but not obedience. Paul says the same thing in 1 Cor 13. Larry, you be the judge if faith and obedience to God is the same thing here:
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1 Cor 13:2
Anyone reading that can clearly see that faith alone is NOTHING. Without charity, and with all the faith in the world, you are nothing - not saved... Thus, here, it is clear that faith is NOT equal to obedience in areas of Scripture. It would seem that charity is more important than faith, and it remains, while faith disappears once we see God face to face. Thus, charity is more important than faith. With love, I fulfill ALL the tenets of the Law, says Paul to the Romans... Paul never says this about "faith", does he.
There is no such term that I am aware of in Scriptures - true faith.
Faith is belief in God. How strong is that faith? Is it enough to die to self, to seek out God when it is not convenient? To turn to repentance and change our lives? If it doesn't, it is "dead faith" - which does NOT mean "no faith". Again, read James 2, who notes that Christians have faith. Big deal, even the devil believes that God exists. But I will show you my faith by my works/love (which the Christians James addresses were not, as seen by their mistreatment of the poor.
"True faith" doesn't accomplish anything. God is the impetus behind our accomplishment. In other words, "true faith" is not a chemical reaction that God catalyzes and walks away, watching your 'faith reaction' bubble up and turn into works like some inexorable and inevitable chemical reaction. Faith is among the many gifts God gives us that enables us, in Christ, to do good. But even WITH faith, we STILL require God to move our wills and desires to do good. Faith ALONE doesn't accomplish any good deeds without God. This is clear in the OT, where people SAW God's works and had faith in Him, but then promptly turned to sin, rather than good works. Where was the conveyor belt that self-generated those good works? And in James? They didn't happen there, either.
Again, "having faith in" something, even God, does not in of itself generate good works on auto pilot. I can see why a person who doesn't believe in the will would say this. Love is an act of the will. One must desire -as moved by God - to do good. It doesn't happen while we just watch passively. Having a disposition that includes faith (it is not alone, hope is there, for example) makes us more open to God's promptings to do what we were created to do, good works. (Eph 2:10)
Regards
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Francis,
Your setting up a false dichotomy. The term "Faith alone" does not mean faith is absolutely without any works. "Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith is never alone." Until you understand what is being said in that quote, you will always be setting up a straw man.
James 2:18 makes the issue clear. There is a dichotomy in that text. The main who has faith alone is merely a man who "says he has faith." Verse 18 clearly establishes what James is talking about when he later uses the term "faith alone" is that of a person who merely "says he has faith." I would agree with you that context is very important, and if the context of verse 18 is included in the discussion of James 2, then your understanding of the term "faith alone" merely sets up a misrepresentation of the passage.
Your setting up a false dichotomy. The term "Faith alone" does not mean faith is absolutely without any works. "Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith is never alone." Until you understand what is being said in that quote, you will always be setting up a straw man.
James 2:18 makes the issue clear. There is a dichotomy in that text. The main who has faith alone is merely a man who "says he has faith." Verse 18 clearly establishes what James is talking about when he later uses the term "faith alone" is that of a person who merely "says he has faith." I would agree with you that context is very important, and if the context of verse 18 is included in the discussion of James 2, then your understanding of the term "faith alone" merely sets up a misrepresentation of the passage.
Re: DEAD faith will not do it!
Forgive me, but I fail l to understand if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. Certainly, your analogy is accurate, but I sense some disconnect since I cannot comprehend why you would tell me this. I have not advocated for disobeying Jesus or God. I am saying faith precedes obedience. Moreover I am defining the term and reason for Christ so as to make effective the cause of his being sent. Was he sent to tell us the world is on fire and head for the exit or is he Himself the exit?