Bible Study Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works #1

[Jim Parker]

Once we are "Saved" we live our lives serving God.
The two subjects are GETTING SAVED BY GRACE, and LIVING A CHRISTIAN LIFE. They are two different subjects.

Right. (IMO anyway)
Jesus saved mankind from eternal, physical death by His own death and resurrection. (1 Cor 15)
It is up to the individual to live a Christian life. (Not that the individual is alone, God sent the Holy Spirit to guide and empower believers.)
Our eternal condition does depend on living that "Christian life."
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Jim Parker]

• I know who the devil is, so why point out a typing error as you are some sort of authority over me.

As a courtesy, I just wanted to make you aware so that you wouldn't embarrass yourself in the future.
And you're welcome.

Your lack of understanding of James is appalling.

Your assumption that you have the ability to to assess my understanding or lack thereof is arrogant and offensive.
It is possible to disagree and still be polite.

James is referring to the works of the Holy Spirit through you, if that is not there, your faith is false and dead.

James made absolutely no reference to the Holy Spirit "being there." You have inserted into James something he never said.
James' statements in chapter 2 are quite clear.
- Faith without works is dead.
- One is justified by works and not by faith alone.
- Faith without works cannot save you.

God, in his Pauline Epistles, has already said it is not your works, unless you could boast![/QUOTE]
God, through Paul, also said, at Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV); "(God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
And Jesus (who id God) said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV), "… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
When you only pick the verses that support your personal opinion, you get a distortion of the scriptures.

You are "boasting" in yourself!

You appear to be confusing “boasting” with “obeying.”
Mat 7:21(RSV) Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Luk 6:46 (RSV) Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
It is not boasting to do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10 RSV); it is being obedient to the one you call "LORD."
If a person does not obey Jesus then Jesus is not his LORD.
It's that simple.

you have a nice day

iakov the fool

 

[Born Again 2004]

As a courtesy, I just wanted to make you aware so that you wouldn't embarrass yourself in the future.
And you're welcome.

The only embarrassment is in your mind!

Your assumption that you have the ability to to assess my understanding or lack thereof is arrogant and offensive.
It is possible to disagree and still be polite.

You have the Gaul to talk about being polite. Let's make sure my disagreement is well documented...we are saved by the free gift of grace alone and not personal works. If you lack the works of the Holy Spirit through you, then you have not received the gift.

James made absolutely no reference to the Holy Spirit "being there." You have inserted into James something he never said.
James' statements in chapter 2 are quite clear.
- Faith without works is dead.
- One is justified by works and not by faith alone.
- Faith without works cannot save you.

No, it is grace through faith by which you are saved , then comes works of the Spirit. Your statement of how James made no reference to the Holy Spirit just proves you lack knowledge....The Bible is all about Jesus...everything that James stated is Jesus breathed and is of the Holy Spirit!

 

[JLB]

-
Exactly.
God SAVED Us....that is our eternal state......"SAVED."
We dont keep ourselves saved.. = GOD Already did this for us as a GIFT...(The Gift Of Righteousness).
This is what the ETERNAL Blood Atonement accomplished for us. = SAVED.

Hebrews 9:12

How are we saved?

 

[Kidron]

How are we saved?

-
"FAITH comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God".
The person is "drawn by the Holy Spirt" , while hearing the GOSPEL, and they are convicted in their conscious.
In this "decision moment" they RECEIVE by faith, (Trust) Jesus The Christ.
He then becomes their SAVIOR who saves them and keeps them saved.
At that second, God has SAVED them, by applying the blood atonement to them, which is eternal = as the Blood of God is eternal.
They are now REDEEMED and born again, in that instant.....("you must be born again")
After that......"Jesus is the author and FINISHER of our faith"
"GOD who began a good work in you, (salvation) will be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT".
"we are sealed unto the day of redemption (by the Holy Spirit).

THEN, we get baptized in water and start trying to live a holy life., as that is our discipleship which is (daily) subsequent to our Salvation which has been already been COMPLETED.

 

[JLB]

"FAITH comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God".

Amen.

What is faith?

THEN, we get baptized in water and start trying to live a holy life., as that is our discipleship which is (daily) subsequent to our Salvation which has been already been COMPLETED.

Start trying to live a holy life?

Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with evidence that is seen or heard?



JLB

 

[smaller]

The truthful disciple of Christ will understand the shoes they stand in:

Luke 17:
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Any takers?

It gets even more difficult when we see what happens to 'unprofitable servants.'

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But wait!!! Didn't Jesus just tell us to say we are unprofitable servants?!

When you harmonize these scriptures, and apply them to yourSELF, you are a disciple of Christ.

 

[JLB]

But wait!!! Didn't Jesus just tell us to say we are unprofitable servants?!

Nope. Jesus didn't say we are unprofitable servants.

6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’” Luke 17:6-10

Jesus said to obey what we are told to do.

When we have obeyed what we have been commanded to do, we are to say, We have done what was our duty to do.

Taking the position that we did what we were told to do, not that we ourselves originated this work, but rather we, in and of ourselves are unprofitable servants, we only did what we were commanded to do, which is the definition of faith.

Unprofitable servants who do not do [disobedience] what they are told or entrusted to do is an entirely different position.

Jesus didn't call the ones who did what He commanded them to do: Unprofitable servants.

He told them to say this about themselves, AFTER, they had obeyed and done what they were commanded to do.

This is the way He wanted His Apostles to represent Him, and His Kingdom. HUMILITY. FAITHFULNESS. HONOR

• We have done what was our duty to do... - "we are unprofitable servants" = Humility

Verses -

• Not doing what they were told to do... - then making excuses - unprofitable servant = Rebellion

Matthew 25 -

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

These were called unprofitable servants by Jesus.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Nope. Jesus didn't say we are unprofitable servants.

It's a really odd thing with you and I on reading things. I can see from Luke 17:9-10 QUITE clearly what Jesus said we should say. Yet you say it's not even there to see. I really don't know what to say about that phenomena, but it is a real phenomena, ain't it?

Luke 17:
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

You say it ain't there and I say it's pretty clearly there. Jesus COMMANDED us to make that statement.

 

[JLB]

It's a really odd thing with you and I on reading things. I can see from Luke 17:9-10 QUITE clearly what Jesus said we should say. Yet you say it's not even there to see. I really don't know what to say about that phenomena, but it is a real phenomena, ain't it?

Luke 17:
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

You say it ain't there and I say it's pretty clearly there. Jesus COMMANDED us to make that statement.

Jesus told us to say we are unprofitable servants... After we have done what we are commanded to do.

You attempted to say that the unprofitable servants of Matthew 25, is the same example or position, which it is not.

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But wait!!! Didn't Jesus just tell us to say we are unprofitable servants?!

When you harmonize these scriptures, and apply them to yourSELF, you are a disciple of Christ.

The difference:

One is what we are to say, AFTER, we have done what we are commanded.

The other is what Jesus Himself calls those [unprofitable servants] after they have not done what the were commanded, or entrusted to do.


Two complete different scenarios, with different outcomes that you have tried to blend together as the same.

One is walking in Faith.
The other is walking is disobedience.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Jesus told us to say we are unprofitable servants... After we have done what we are commanded to do.

You attempted to say that the unprofitable servants of Matthew 25, is the same example or position, which it is not.

I made no attempt other than to cite Jesus' Own Words on the matters.

Will the "unprofitable servants" be cast out? Yes. And not just "some" of them, but ALL of them.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Jesus saved mankind from eternal, physical death by His own death and resurrection. (1 Cor 15)

You must be mistaken about something. Jesus does not save us from physical death for we all die one physical death but , for sure, because of him some of us do not die a eternal spiritual death!
Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
They face judgement....those who have Jesus in them, live spiritually for all eternity...those who do not have Jesus in them die spiritually!

 

[Jim Parker]

You must be mistaken about something. Jesus does not save us from physical death for we all die one physical death

That's true. But no one stays physically dead.
Everyone will be physically raised from the grave immortal and incorruptible.
In that way, Jesus saved all of mankind from physical death.

because of him some of us do not die a eternal spiritual death!

That is also true.
Because Jesus reconciled man to God, man (mankind) is able to have eternal life in Christ.
Those who reject the gift experience the "second death"

 

[Jim Parker]

The only embarrassment is in your mind!

I'm sorry to have offended you. It was not my intention.

Let's make sure my disagreement is well documented...we are saved by the free gift of grace alone and not personal works.

Jesus disagreed with you when He specifically stated:
" … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29 (NKJV)

If you lack the works of the Holy Spirit through you, then you have not received the gift.

That is begging the question, also known as; circular reasoning.
Logical Fallacy: Begging the Question Also Known as: Circular Reasoning, Reasoning in a Circle, Petitio Principii.

Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.
1. Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).

2. Claim C (the conclusion) is true.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."

Examples of Begging the Question
1. Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."

2. "The belief in God is universal. After all, everyone believes in God."

it is grace through faith by which you are saved ,

Yes, it is by grace anyone is saved. God doesn't have to save anyone; nothing forces Him to do so, but, because He loves mankind, He saves all who will believe.
Those who believe can be identified by their actions.
"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mat 7:21 (RSV)
And Jesus will pronounce His eternal judgment based on the evidence of what each person did or did not do. (Mat 25:31-46)

then comes works of the Spirit.

There is no mention in the Bible of "works of the spirit."
Gal 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the spirit and there are gifts of the spirit listed in Romans and Corinthians.
But there are no "Works of the Spirit" mentioned in the NT.
Please explain what you mean by "works of the Spirit."
What scriptures teach about the "works of the Spirit"?

Your statement of how James made no reference to the Holy Spirit just proves you lack knowledge....

Please cite the reference to the Holy Spirit in the passage in which James stated that faith without works is dead and it cannot save anyone. (James Ch. 2)
The only use of the word "spirit" in that passage is at Jas 2:26, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (RSV) There is no way that usage could support your claim that James made reference to the Holy Spirit in that passage.
Please clarify.

Every human being has the ability to choose to obey or not to obey Jesus commands. (Love God, Love one another, love our neighbors, love our enemies) It doesn't just happen automatically because someone believed, was baptized and then received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Christian life involves constant warfare against the temptations which arise from the "lusts of the flesh" and the onslaught of the Devil. It is a life of repentance and striving for holiness.
We must daily, even minute by minute, make the choice to shun evil and serve the Lord.
That requires effort; it requires work on the part of the believer.
1Jo 1:8-10 (RSV) If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Paul shared his experience at Phl 3:8-15a (RSV)
Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Let those of us who are mature be thus minded;

have a nice day

 

[JLB]

I made no attempt other than to cite Jesus' Own Words on the matters.

Will the "unprofitable servants" be cast out? Yes. And not just "some" of them, but ALL of them.

Why would you insinuate that those who were obedient, and did what their Master told them to do, would be "cast out"?

Does Jesus say this about those who did what He told them to do?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Why would you insinuate that those who were obedient, and did what their Master told them to do, would be "cast out"?

Does Jesus say this about those who did what He told them to do?

JLB

Don't you find any interest in the observations of Jesus regarding Him telling us to say we are unprofitable servants? I find it exceptionally interesting, especially coupled with other statements of Jesus regarding unprofitable servants. These are not easy matters to harmonize without taking very hard looks at ourselves in the Light of His Words.

 

[Kidron]

What is faith?
Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with evidence that is seen or heard?

JLB

-
Faith is Trust.
Faith that MOVES God to SAVE you, is faith in a specific....= JESUS.

And the bible says that the Holy Spirit regenerates us <><> and then we become the temple of the indwelling Holy Spirit.("he that hath not the Spirit of God is NONE OF HIS"... (is not saved) (is not born again)
So, when a person is truly born again, some of them climb walls with joy, some shout, some feel goosebumps, some feel the weight of their guilty sin debt LIFT from their back, some feel nothing, as salvation is not a feeling, its a pardon and a adoption and a sanctification and a justification given to us based on the Blood Of Christ.
So, if you become born again, then you are baptized WITH the Holy Spirit.
And regarding the charismatic-pentecostal position that..... the "evidence of the infilling of the HS is to speak in a prayer language"....
Its a rabbit trail.
Dont waste your time there.
Study this instead...... Hebrews 13:9
As the people that worry about what you are asking me about forgot to notice that during the actual day of Pentecost when Peter preached to the 3000 that were added to the church....that not one of those 3000 had this "infilling evidence".
Go read Acts 2:38-45.
Also, most Charismatics-Pentecostals, dont understand the difference between the "gift of being able to speak a foreign language (gift of tongues) that Peter was doing that day @ Pentecost, .....as compared to a "heavenly prayer language", that is edifying to the individual, however is not the "gift of Tongues" (Earthly Foreign Languages).
The Charismatic -Pentecostal, thinks these 2 separate things are the SAME.
And they are not the same.

 

[JLB]

-
Faith is Trust.
Faith that MOVES God to SAVE you, is faith in a specific....= JESUS.

And the bible says that the Holy Spirit regenerates us <><> and then we become the temple of the indwelling Holy Spirit.("he that hath not the Spirit of God is NONE OF HIS"... (is not saved) (is not born again)
So, when a person is truly born again, some of them climb walls with joy, some shout, some feel goosebumps, some feel the weight of their guilty sin debt LIFT from their back, some feel nothing, as salvation is not a feeling, its a pardon and a adoption and a sanctification and a justification given to us based on the Blood Of Christ.
So, if you become born again, then you are baptized WITH the Holy Spirit.
And regarding the charismatic-pentecostal position that..... the "evidence of the infilling of the HS is to speak in a prayer language"....
Its a rabbit trail.
Dont waste your time there.
Study this instead...... Hebrews 13:9
As the people that worry about what you are asking me about forgot to notice that during the actual day of Pentecost when Peter preached to the 3000 that were added to the church....that not one of those 3000 had this "infilling evidence".
Go read Acts 2:38-45.
Also, most Charismatics-Pentecostals, dont understand the difference between the "gift of being able to speak a foreign language (gift of tongues) that Peter was doing that day @ Pentecost, .....as compared to a "heavenly prayer language", that is edifying to the individual, however is not the "gift of Tongues" (Earthly Foreign Languages).
The Charismatic -Pentecostal, thinks these 2 separate things are the SAME.
And they are not the same.

The bible provides us with the definition of what faith is, as well as how faith comes to us.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

I see where so much of your misunderstanding comes from.

You choose to define scripture from your own understanding, rather than acknowledging God and His word.

Do not lean on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.

That's why what you try to teach is from man and not from God.

Ask the Lord to Baptize you with the Holy Spirit, so that the Holy Spirit can renew your mind, and teach you the truth.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Don't you find any interest in the observations of Jesus regarding Him telling us to say we are unprofitable servants? I find it exceptionally interesting, especially coupled with other statements of Jesus regarding unprofitable servants. These are not easy matters to harmonize without taking very hard looks at ourselves in the Light of His Words.

It's a matter of rightly diving the word of truth.



Jesus told us to say we are unprofitable servants... After we have done what we are commanded to do.

You attempted to say that the unprofitable servants of Matthew 25, is the same example or position, which it is not.

One is what we are to say, AFTER, we have done what we are commanded.

The other is what Jesus Himself calls those [unprofitable servants] after they have not done what the were commanded, or entrusted to do.


Two complete different scenarios, with different outcomes that you have tried to blend together as the same.

One is a lesson in walking in faith: Doing what the master has said. The obedience of Faith.

Jesus teaching His disciples about faith, that when they began to walk in the supernatural faith, of miracles signs and wonders, then will remember to accredit their success to God, from whom the faith and power comes from, in order to point people to Jesus and salvation, rather than themselves.

Context:
5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

Their source is Jesus, not themselves; They didn't need to "increase their faith", they simply needed to go and do what they were shown to do, which is the example Jesus gave them.



The other is walking is disobedience. Not doing what the master has said.
Resulting in:
And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:30



You have attempted to blur the lines, so as to teach that we are all "unprofitable servants" and none will be held accountable for their choice to obey or disobey God.



JLB

 

[Born Again 2004]

That's true. But no one stays physically dead.
Everyone will be physically raised from the grave immortal and incorruptible.
In that way, Jesus saved all of mankind from physical death

You say true, true, true but still disagree. That is fine because none of us will never know the complete truth in this life. But, saying that, we are close but I don't I only see in a bit different: We all, just like Adam and Eve die our physical death. Some of us in the future will maybe not die exactly, at least there will be no pain, we will be changed in a blink of an eye! The dead, before those who are instantly changed will be raised first according to scripture but, beyond that we are all the same, immortal and incorruptible because be of a miracle combination of spiritual and a resurrected body. I feel that one should not make a mistake: we all die a physical death unless we are raptured instantly, those will not experience death, otherwise Jesus did not or has not saved all of mankind from physical death..."wide is the path but narrow is the gate"!