Bible Study Sheep who become lost.

[civilwarbuff]

Dead to God refers to spirituality dead, since the prodigal son was not physically dead.




The way we have eternal life is by being in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are connected or joined to His Spirit, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, in which we are one spirit with Him.

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

When a person is severed or removed from Christ, they are no longer in Christ in which they are no longer joined to Him and His Spirit.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

If a person is no longer connected to the eternal life in Christ, how then can a person have eternal life?



JLB

So, are you saying that you don't believe in an indwelling Holy Spirit? If that is not what you believe then you did not answer the questions; please try again.

 

[JLB]

These 'believers' have no root in God and have only an emotional belief in the message and emotional belief soon cools and dies.
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 13. - They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. These represent natures at once impressionable and excitable; impulsive men and women who, charmed with the beauty, perhaps (to them) the novelty, of the gospel message, receive the Word, take up the Master's yoke with joy, but without thought. These hastily make a religious profession, but they forget altogether to count what the real cost of such a profession amounts to. Upon these superficial but kindly natures come trouble, perplexity, discouragement, perhaps persecution; then quickly the once-loved religion withers away like corn growing on rocky places beneath the burning summer sun. John Mark, the would-be missionary companion of Paul and Barnabas, was one of this impulsive but little-enduring class; and Demas, once the friend of Paul, but who loved too well the present world. Another instance would be the man who offered to follow Jesus "whithersoever thou goest," as he phrased it, till he found, by the Lord's grave answer, that the Master he offered to follow had neither home nor resting-place; then he seems quickly to have turned back.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/8-13.htm

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while

Jesus said they believe.

It may be years that they believed, but the point is, your claim is when they believe, they are saved.

That would by definition mean .they were saved for a while.

If Believe = Saved

Then believe for a while = Saved for awhile.

If this is not the case, then please explain what more a person needs to do besides “believe”.


JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while

Jesus said they believe.

It may be years that they believed, but the point is, your claim is when they believe, they are saved.

That would by definition mean .they were saved for a while.

If Believe = Saved

Then believe for a while = Saved for awhile.

If this is not the case, then please explain what more a person needs to do besides “believe”.


JLB

You seem to be ignoring this part:

and these have no root,

In other words, they believe only in their head and not in their heart. I am sure you have come across those....you could call them intellectual Christians.......

 

[JLB]

Would like for you to do the same.....

• The eternal preservation of our entire being, spirit, soul, and body, from all enemies, including death.

Which by default means everlasting life. Inheriting the kingdom of God.

• Being an eternal citizen in God’s kingdom, as family... sons of God.

This is an end result of our faith, and will take place when Jesus returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, when He destroys the wicked.


Scriptures -

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

• He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

again


8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

again


34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

• nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Can a sheep become lost?

If a sheep is a human who desires to follow Jesus, has faith, and that means if they lose this faith,
they then can be lost.

If a sheep is a human with an eternal spirit, which is born of heaven, which will never die, and merely
dwells in a flesh body, temporarily, it can never be lost.

I see such problems, are not just the question being asked but what one is describing as well.
It becomes pointless is a eternal spirit believer says no it cannot be lost, because all they are stating is
their definition of a believer already declares the impossibility of being unsaved.

I stand a little apart when this happens, because we are not talking about the same faith.
What is interesting is eternal spirit believers who then say they are the true church and all the traditional
evangelical church is lost and wrong. They have just declared what they are, a different faith.

Dig deeper, and you do not need to repent or confess sin, walk righteously or even know Gods will.
It is all about the mystical eternal spirit rebirth, and you are in.

As a follower of Jesus I have a problem though. Sheep do get lost, and hurt and discouraged, and we
are called to encourage, lift up, bring back to repentance those who have slipped away and walk in the
ways of Holy living.

14> Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Hebrews 12:14

7> For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

15> But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
16> for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15-16

Holiness is closer than you might think. It is about loving others.

So if people can choose in Christ to walk in Holiness they can also choose to walk in sin
and be defiled and lost. Quite simple really.

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus said that believe is what is required to be saved.


JLB

JLB,
Here's how I see the parable then explanation.. The parable is in black. The explanation by Jesus is in is in red.

PART 1
4 And when a great crowd was gathering and people from town after town came to him, he said in a parable,
5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it.

12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Path is the common denominator in both verses. These people were not saved.

PART 2
6 And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.

13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Rock is the common denominator in both verses. They may have confessed Jesus for a while then "fall away" indicating they never had saving faith. No root. We see this with alter calls where people joyfully come forward..accept Jesus....then 6 months later have returned to their old ways. Their responce was emotional and superficial. There was no regeneration.

PART 3
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it.

14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.

Thorns is the common denominator in both verses. These individuals are much like the rock....their response also is only superficial. In todays world they may stay with a "church" because of the church's program or the social life within the congregation...but eventually are chocked out by the thorns, the cares and riches and pleasures of life ... and leave...as there was no regeneration and change of heart

PART 4
8 And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold.” As he said these things, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

Good soil is the common denominator in both verses. This group of people had their hearts truly changed by God. They were regenerated...they heard God and beared fruit. In the parable they were the only group of people saved.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Can you give scriptures that references your beliefs from the epistles of Paul. The gospels were written about the time that Christ walked this earth in his incarnate form. Hebrews was written to prove the crucified savior was superior to law. Peter was written to the "twelve tribes scattered abroad". Peter wrote to the "strangers scattered abroad", which were Jews.
Paul was the apostle to the uncircumcised, which the Gentiles were part of, which God used to reveal the Church (the body of Christ). When we try to apply those things that were not written to the Church as doctrine for the Church, we get confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

In my opinion, your testimony for the risen savior would have more weight if you were to base your belief on scripture written by the apostle Paul.

 

[Traveling teacher]

we are saved by faith...in the blood of Jesus....... not by works
ephesians 2:8
But we are judged by our works..... because if we continue in sin their is no grace and we can lose our salvation.....
galations 6:1
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
1 Peter 2:21-22
a dog returns to its voment
thats why salvation is a lifelong relationship that we must work out with fear and trembling.....
not just a lightening bolt 1 time experience!!!!!!
philippians 2:12
he who endures to the end will be saved
Jesus

 

[PeterJens]

we are saved by faith...in the blood of Jesus....... not by works
ephesians 2:8
But we are judged by our works..... because if we continue in sin their is no grace and we can lose our salvation.....
galations 6:1
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
1 Peter 2:21-22
a dog returns to its voment
thats why salvation is a lifelong relationship that we must work out with fear and trembling.....
not just a lightening bolt 1 time experience!!!!!!
philippians 2:12
he who endures to the end will be saved
Jesus

I get pictures of ideas sometimes.
One is a molding press.
Some think of faith like a molding press that thumps down on the believer and out pops Jesus,
perfect, Holy and pure. Some then say this is camoflaged within the believer, no matter how grotty
they are, it will be revealed on the last day.

Another say the molding press has made them sinless, and they walk clean and perfect from day 1.

Oddly Jesus talks about seeds, plants, a walk and growth.
He gives warnings of failure, hardness of heart, rebellion and compromise.
If one has an open heart, a listening spirit, it becomes obvious this is a progression and a
living relationships with stages, events, and growth.

And along with this, getting lost is part of the whole story.

 

[JLB]

PART 2
6 And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.

13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Rock is the common denominator in both verses. They may have confessed Jesus for a while then "fall away" indicating they never had saving faith. No root. We see this with alter calls where people joyfully come forward..accept Jesus....then 6 months later have returned to their old ways. Their responce was emotional and superficial. There was no regeneration.

You seem to be ignoring this part:

In other words, they believe only in their head and not in their heart. I am sure you have come across those....you could call them intellectual Christians.......

Your making up things that are not in the scripture.

Jesus Christ our Lord said these "believed" for a while.

I thought you understood what was being said here, but now I see you don't.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


There is no question what so ever that these folks referred to in this passage believed.

Jesus is teaching about people who renounce Him under the threat of persecution and death, which is called departing from Him.

This is the meaning of "fall away" . It is used to describe the exact same scenario in the book of Hebrews.

Here it is from Matthew.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20

• For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word,

Matthew records the term "endures for a while" while Luke is "believe for a while".

• yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while.

Jesus said of this very thing in Matthew 24, concerning the great tribulation -

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


So this is the context in which Jesus says, who believe for a while in Luke 8:13.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


This is about departing from Him under persecution.


The reason these people were being persecuted was they believed.

• Why would unbelievers be persecuted?

These were Christians who were sharing the good news and unbelieving Jews persecuted them.

That is the context.

Jesus said these believed for a while.

The ones who didn't believe are mentioned in the previous example whereby the seed never made it into their heart.

In this example, these people believed, the seed did make it into their heart and did in fact sprout and grow.

The plant was indeed immature, but it was indeed a a growing plant, no more being a seed.


Again, if you think there is something more a person must do than believe, to be saved then please explain.



JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

and these have no root,

Your making up things that are not in the scripture.

Not making a thing up....go back and read the scripture.
Again, you are ignoring a significant statement in the verse. What do you think Jesus means by 'these have no root'? I mean, he is not talking about actual plants here......people can 'believe' in different ways.....superficially, intellectually, with their heart, etc.

I though you understood what was being said here, but now I see you don't.

Just because we don't agree does not automatically mean I am wrong.....your own interpretation could also be wrong. The commentary I posted certainly supports my position.

 

[JLB]

Not making a thing up....go back and read the scripture.

Yes you claimed these only have "head knowledge".

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

No such thing is mentioned.

It says they believed... for a while.

They endured for only a while.

Those who endure to the end will be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Just because we don't agree does not automatically mean I am wrong.....your own interpretation could also be wrong. The commentary I posted certainly supports my position.

The commentary does not support what the bible says, that these believed for a while.

So this brings us back to your claim that when someone believes, they are saved.

Now you are claiming they must believe and have a root system.

How long does it take for a seed to produce a root system.

From what I've seen, and plant can not spout up above the ground without roots.

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I believe, I believe, I believe skoda cars have got a lot better since vw took them over.
I believe, I believe, I believe in Jesus by going to church everyday, I will be safe.
I believe, I believe, I believe in Jesus by saying His name a lot of times.

I believe, I believe, I believe Jesus has made me bullet proof, the blood pouring out of me is an illusion.

Now if you say I believe and Jesus in the same sentence you have got eternal Life, and you
can never loose it.

Or if you pray the sinners prayer, or 100 other formula.

And the truth is, if you are written the Lambs book of life you are saved from the 2nd death.

So who actually has the authority to call sheep sheep, and not? Jesus.
What is the quality of a sheep who is Jesus's? They listen and follow Him, ie obey Him, show
love flowing from their hearts.

They have passed from death, to life, from this world to the Kingdom of heaven.

Simon the magician, who came to faith, what did Peter say to him,
18> When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money
19> and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
20> Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
21> You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22> Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
23> For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
Acts 8:18-23

Simon came to faith but went astray and was about to be judged.

Paul says this of the people in Corinth
27> Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28> A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
29> For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30> That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
31> But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.
32> When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
1 Corinthians 11:27-32

Paul is talking to believers who are coming under judgement and dying because they have gone astray.
The point is simple, we will be judged severly who know Christ yet dishonour Him.
How deep this goes, the Lord knows, but simply I do not want to go there and why should I?

 

[civilwarbuff]

and these have no root,

JLB, why do refuse to address this? I have pointed this out a couple of times and you have simply ignored it.

Yes you claimed these only have "head knowledge".

Never used those words JLB.....go back and check if you don't believe me.

The commentary does not support what the bible says, that these believed for a while.

No, it does not support what you say but that is not the same as being wrong.

Now you are claiming they must believe and have a root system.

Actually, Jesus said that, not me. I am simply bringing up the fact that you are ignoring a significant statement in that verse.

How long does it take for a seed to produce a root system.
From what I've seen, and plant can not spout up above the ground without roots.

I would take that to mean that the 'plant/belief' cannot exist without the being rooted in the soil/God.....intellectual belief fits that bill precisely......

 

[JLB]

JLB, why do refuse to address this? I have pointed this out a couple of times and you have simply ignored it.

I have addressed it.

I asked you to explain what more is required from a person, besides to "believe", since it is your claim that a person is saved when they believe.

If you are saying a person must have a root system, then please explain what that means, and how long does it take after the person believes, for this root system to grow.


Here are the three, renderings of this passage.

• yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:21

• But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. Mark 4:16-17

My claim, is that those who endure, or believe to the end, are saved.

So it's not up to me to explain the "root" or "no root", issue you have made of this passage.


Please be aware there is a metaphorical term for this word.

Strongs Strong's G4491 - rhiza

1. a root
   
   
2. that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot
   
   
3. metaph. offspring, progeny
   

JLB

 

[JLB]

Never used those words JLB.....go back and check if you don't believe me.

They may have confessed Jesus for a while then "fall away" indicating they never had saving faith.

Not even close to what is been taught here by Jesus.

Fall away, means to depart from Christ because of persecution.

• How in the world can an unbeliever be under persecution?
• How in the world can someone depart from Christ, if they were never joined to Him in relationship?

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing [Strongs 868] from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. [Strongs 868] Luke 8:13

• Jesus said those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

JLB

 

[JLB]

No, it does not support what you say but that is not the same as being wrong.

The commentary is just that, commentary.

Whenever someone refers to commentary rather than just studying what the actual scripture says, it means they don't understand what is being presented, which you have proven you don't.

It's about departing from Christ, renouncing christ, in order to save your life because you are being threatened with torture or death.


It's just that simple.

Jesus was teaching His disciples and preparing them for when unbelieving Jews would flog them and threaten them with death, and actual murder them, which all were except John who was banished to the Isle of Patmos.


This is exactly what Jesus is also teaching us today, who are living in the last days.


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually, Jesus said that, not me. I am simply bringing up the fact that you are ignoring a significant statement in that verse.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have shown that Jesus said these believed and explained the context.

If you believe that a person must have roots then explain what that is, and explain how long after the person believes for them to have these roots.

This alone proves there is more than just believing to be saved on the Day of Judgement.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Never used those words JLB.....go back and check if you don't believe me.

Here is what you have stated in post # 163.

In other words, they believe only in their head and not in their heart. I am sure you have come across those....you could call them intellectual Christians.......

• they believe only in their head and not in their heart
• you could call them intellectual Christians.

You are adding to verse things which are not there.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


No mention of head knowledge
No mention of believing with their head
No mention of being intellectual Christians


These are being persecuted for being Christians, and these Christians stop believing and turn away from Christ, because of persecution.


JLB