Should I Tithe Or Pay My Bills?

[Edward]

Jets, mansions, art collections, a big glass Crystal Cathedral, television face time for some egomaniac. Oh yeah. God needs us to support all that...NOT. If I see Bob Tilton ONE more time on a television screen squinting, smiling and praying for money I think I'll puke. These people make me ill, they are so crooked, in the Name of Jesus, of course...

Uhh, it isn't any of our business if another of God's children abuse the finances and we can't be judgmental of them. We're there to worship & fellowship. If a pastor teaches mandatory tithing in pursuit of financial gain, that's very wrong, and where's his faith?! I (think) that the church is supposed to be being dependent upon God in faith, yes? Lol

Putting the congregation under the law for financial advantage is indeed wrong, and I know it happens so it would be advisable to be financially prudent and give ones offerings directly to the poor.

But I guess I was trying to say that it doesn't have to be about the law. If a believer knows in his heart that Jesus fulfilled the law and he's under grace, that he could give offerings based on 10% tithe protocol only.

...Giving generously to the poor is a present reward, and the only avenue of real legitimacy in giving, and not out of law, but of simply seeing the needs of others and helping. The reward for that is in the now for our own hearts. There will be no monetary payback guarantee...

Yes, not out of law, and it does make one feel good to help others. Perhaps there is no guarantee of a (blessing), but God will bless tithing (not under the law in the heart), and I know he will, because I've done it. Thank you, Jesus.

...You can put yourself under the law of tithing all you please. I'm just saying that there are other things to consider when it comes to LAW. We don't get to just take the parts we like and we certainly can't buy our way into favors with God, that much is certain. You know, slip Bob a few extra hundred so he can "mediate" a prayah of agreement to get our return on the investment...

Why are you stuck on this, and why get judgmental & snarky with me? I'm not trying to buy God's favor, nor claiming the law. If you'd like to consider other aspects of the law, how about charity? Matthew 22:36-39
Charity, as in, love, brother. There's some NT law for you, lol. IOW, you're letting this get to you. No need for that, we're just talking. No one is 'trying to win'. Lighten up.

...I like watching Scrooge movies in all their variations around Christmas time cause Scrooge figured out that it just FELT GOOD in his own heart to GIVE. That's pretty much the whole lesson ain't it? Present reward. It grows on ya.

Not really in my mind. I don't give to get a feel good rush, I give because they need it and because I'd want someone to help me if I needed it. We are our brother's keeper and should help. But yes, I do feel good when I help.

 

[reba]

For those who wish to pay tithe... believing tithe to SORTA be a NT law.. this is one to also keep in mind..

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

 

[iLOVE]

Proverbs 3:9-10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
9 Honor the Lord with your wealth
And with the first fruits of all your crops (income);
10 Then your barns will be abundantly filled
And your vats will overflow with new wine.

 

[reba]

And what if your not a fruit farmer.

 

[iLOVE]

Proverbs 3:9-10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
9 Honor the Lord with your wealth
And with the first fruits of all your crops (income);
10 Then your barns will be abundantly filled
And your vats will overflow with new wine.

This is why I used the Amplified Bible, to show the true meaning.

 

[smaller]

Uhh, it isn't any of our business if another of God's children abuse the finances and we can't be judgmental of them.

Really now? IF I were such a preacher you'd be my favorite type of sheep.

We're there to worship & fellowship. If a pastor teaches mandatory tithing in pursuit of financial gain, that's very wrong, and where's his faith?!

I might suggest such faith is in business principles masquerading as faith. I know many pastors who are very good at such masquerades. Some of the really good¿? ones make it on the teevee just to find people who are gullible enough to line their coffers. In the Name of Jesus, of course. Always that.

I (think) that the church is supposed to be being dependent upon God in faith, yes? Lol

Putting the congregation under the law for financial advantage is indeed wrong, and I know it happens so it would be advisable to be financially prudent and give ones offerings directly to the poor.

Brilliant. It still wouldn't be a "tithe" done under law though. There were some rules that came with the whole tithe law. I've seen some delightful twists on the matters. Very creative.

But I guess I was trying to say that it doesn't have to be about the law. If a believer knows in his heart that Jesus fulfilled the law and he's under grace, that he could give offerings based on 10% tithe protocol only.

Ah, you just happen to like that part of the law #? For what reason? Because it's the "legally required amount?" Pardon me for setting you up. We all like a little bit of "law" don't we? The parts we like and think are "legally compliant."

Yes, not out of law, and it does make one feel good to help others. Perhaps there is no guarantee of a (blessing), but God will bless tithing (not under the law in the heart), and I know he will, because I've done it. Thank you, Jesus.

I'm not apt to engage in such circular logic. IF it could actually be proven that MONEY buys treasures in heaven wouldn't there be a bidding war? Wouldn't Warren Buffet, like, always win?

Ah, then we will hear about the widow's mite! How she gave not just 10%, but her ALL. Yes, some just love taking money from widows. All of it if they can get it. But she gave it to GOD! Amen, hallelujah!

Wake me up when the guy is done with his sales pitch wouldja?

Why are you stuck on this, and why get judgmental & snarky with me? I'm not trying to buy God's favor, nor claiming the law.

[insert wink. no, make that 2 winks]

If you'd like to consider other aspects of the law, how about charity? Matthew 22:36-39
Charity, as in, love, brother.

How much does that cost?

There's some NT law for you, lol. IOW, you're letting this get to you. No need for that, we're just talking. No one is 'trying to win'. Lighten up.

Of course I'm having great fun with you Edward. I've been pinched by the best of 'em so you're in good company.

Not really in my mind. I don't give to get a feel good rush, I give because they need it and because I'd want someone to help me if I needed it. We are our brother's keeper and should help. But yes, I do feel good when I help.

And that's GOOD. I absolutely give because it's good for my heart. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a "rush." And giving doesn't have to be with the moolah either.

 

[smaller]

And what if your not a fruit farmer.

I'm sure other arrangements will be acceptable to God sister. Trust me.

 

[smaller]

This is why I used the Amplified Bible, to show the true meaning.

Are you identifying your "first fruits" with a bar code for accuracy? Would that be like 40% of your first gross paycheck of the month? Or 47.5% since there are actually 4.3 weeks per month in 12 months?

 

[iLOVE]

Are you identifying your "first fruits" with a bar code for accuracy? Would that be like 40% of your first gross paycheck of the month? Or 47.5% since there are actually 4.3 weeks in 12 months.

I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

 

[smaller]

I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

You mean weaknesses for like, minor miscalculations of percentages or a first fruit tithe that might not show up as "paid in full" til the last paycheck?

 

[iLOVE]

You mean weaknesses for like, minor miscalculations of percentages or a first fruit tithe that might not show up as "paid in full" til the last paycheck?

Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!" Matthew 26:41 NLT
When the hedge comes down, the serpent will bite. Ecclesiastes 10:8, Ephesians 6:11

 

[smaller]

I still dont see why people think they can pick and choose Gods laws or rules. How can someone say to tithe but yet all the other laws or rules are 'invalid', like tithe but dont go 3 times a year like God said or whatever the custom was, its once a week now says man.

What about all the other things God commanded?, or is tithe the only main law one must obey?

Just give because you want to give,and God is happy. Look after the poor and widows with your offerings like the tithe is suppose to be for.

Here is a nice little short track on the LAW and "tithing by faith" when it's done under the dictates of the law.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:12
And the law is not of faith:

Looks like a bit of a problem there.

It takes exactly ZERO faith to pick up a calculator, figure out 10% of the monthly gross income and write a check out to the church/pastor. That simply is not faith. Might get a little sick to your stomach seeing the money fly out the door and then have FAITH that it will return though...

 

[smaller]

Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!" Matthew 26:41 NLT
When the hedge comes down, the serpent will bite. Ecclesiastes 10:8, Ephesians 6:11

Well I am certainly willing to pay up to keep from getting bitten by snakes!!! That changes everything.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I should have kept a closer watch on this string, I knew it had to go into the false prophets of today and with my present attack, it arrived there and almost, it appears passed by without my notice.

I see some that is correct but at the same time, just, wrong. Tithing can be one of the most Spiritually enriching things any man and/or woman can do. I notice some in this world are incorrectly instructed however about our implied duty concerning this matter. Many, many, times I am assured by a lot of different souls that what the Jim Jones' and the Benni Hinns of this world do with our tithes is not our business and at the very, very least that is not correct, more to the point, it is most often an unintentional lie.

It becomes an unintentional lie because it was or is taught to someone by an intentional liar wanting to improperly profit from the Good Intentions of the Faithful Christian. Where the money of the LORD our God is spent is, indeed, the business of each and every Christian. In Titus 1:7-9 we find the reason I put this forward, it applies, both to the Pastor and to the giver.

I have long sought people that will remember my first rule of Bible understanding; No scripture or scriptures can ever be fully understood without the light of every scripture in the Bible shining on it/them. AS I said, people that do not study the scriptures to know God in a personal way, often, like to pump themselves up as super righteous and will not listen to what is being said but, rather, build a false wall between themselves and the truth of the scriptures.

I was a member of a Church Body where the licensed minister was misusing everything the Church had, including the ladies there. When I called his hand, in private, he made it his mission to preach me and my family out of the Church I and six other men called him to. When he, personally, attacked my four year old grandchild, I gave in and left there. His wife, a sweet Christian Lady soon caught him in the Pastor's office with two women on his desk. She saw to it he had his license to preach in Missionary Baptist Churches remove by reporting all of his sin.

I only had caught him on a Doctrinal Point and knew he would never be permanently injured and I did not report that nor the way he had attacked my baby girl. Instead I left the association I loved and was progressively busier with the business of and became a member of the southern Baptists and refused to ever be involved in Church business again.

But if I ever am seated under one of these men, it is my responsibility to confront him one on one and if that fails it is my responsibility to stand, in the middle of a sermon and call him publicly to task when he will not respond to me, not to me and one or two, maybe three others. That is the responsibility of every one of the men in any Church Family, bar none.

 

[WIP]

Uhh, it isn't any of our business if another of God's children abuse the finances and we can't be judgmental of them. We're there to worship & fellowship.

But we are also called to be good stewards.
"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."
2 Timothy 15 NKJV

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.
Ephesians 5:3-16 NKJV

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.
Ephesians 4:25-28 NKJV

Are we presenting ourselves approved if we knowingly support inappropriate behavior? Conversely, are we presenting ourselves approved if we are lumping all ministries under one umbrella and therefore refusing to support those that may be good stewards of the gifts we offer?

For example, I like to think that our little country church is doing rather well. This past Sunday we had our annual congregational meeting where we decide what to do with the funds available. With only 30 families counted as regular members of our church we still gave over $20,000.00 above our expenses toward outreach, ministries, food shelf, and other local needs. God has really blessed us. We probably could give more but also need to fix up some things around our church this year.

I can also assure you that our pastor is not getting rich by any means and in fact refuses to accept anything more than what is considered a starting salary for a new pastor according to the ELCA. He is an ELCA affiliated pastor (our congregation is independent) but only remains associated to continue to fight against corruption. In fact, we had to basically force him to allow us to give him a healthcare coverage benefit so he wouldn't pay for his own health insurance our of his pocket (he wouldn't accept it in the form of a salary increase). He also refuses to accept a retirement package from us but opts to set aside a portion of his own salary out of pocket. For the past few years we've been tossing around the idea of giving him a sabbatical but so far that too has been a tough uphill climb. He has served our church over 31 years as of this year and we think it is about time for him to take some time for himself but we have yet to convince him. He did recently take aobut three weeks off for a trip to Israel this past month but paid for it himself. He is probably the most humble, gentle, kind, compassionate person I have ever met.

 

[smaller]

But we are also called to be good stewards.
"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."
2 Timothy 15 NKJV

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.
Ephesians 5:3-16 NKJV

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.
Ephesians 4:25-28 NKJV

Are we presenting ourselves approved if we knowingly support inappropriate behavior? Conversely, are we presenting ourselves approved if we are lumping all ministries under one umbrella and therefore refusing to support those that may be good stewards of the gifts we offer?

For example, I like to think that our little country church is doing rather well. This past Sunday we had our annual congregational meeting where we decide what to do with the funds available. With only 30 families counted as regular members of our church we still gave over $20,000.00 above our expenses toward outreach, ministries, food shelf, and other local needs. God has really blessed us. We probably could give more but also need to fix up some things around our church this year.

I can also assure you that our pastor is not getting rich by any means and in fact refuses to accept anything more than what is considered a starting salary for a new pastor according to the ELCA. He is an ELCA affiliated pastor (our congregation is independent) but only remains associated to continue to fight against corruption. In fact, we had to basically force him to allow us to give him a healthcare coverage benefit so he wouldn't pay for his own health insurance our of his pocket (he wouldn't accept it in the form of a salary increase). He also refuses to accept a retirement package from us but opts to set aside a portion of his own salary out of pocket. For the past few years we've been tossing around the idea of giving him a sabbatical but so far that too has been a tough uphill climb. He has served our church over 31 years as of this year and we think it is about time for him to take some time for himself but we have yet to convince him. He did recently take aobut three weeks off for a trip to Israel this past month but paid for it himself. He is probably the most humble, gentle, kind, compassionate person I have ever met.

There are a LOT of beautiful "country churches" that are in Minn. I was brought up in a similar manner. The believing people there are very much individually responsible folk, generally speaking, who bonded together as church communities out of real and genuine needs to work together as believing farmer rancher communities. Literally for their mutual survival. Harsh country makes people serious about their faith, and their work.

I still enjoy an occasional lutefisk pot luck here and there when I get the chance to partake. Fond memories for the most part.

View attachment 8293

 

[Deborah13]

Ah, then we will hear about the widow's mite! How she gave not just 10%, but her ALL. Yes, some just love taking money from widows. All of it if they can get it.

The last one I heard on TV was how to get the widow's personal property when she dies. They have a form to fill out or something and a copy goes with her will. Something like that. Promise what you own to the ministry rather than your children. Sounds like reverse 'Corbin' to me.

You mean weaknesses for like, minor miscalculations of percentages or a first fruit tithe that might not show up as "paid in full" til the last paycheck?

I always made it simple, just around up. Just to be sure I wasn't robbing God.

 

[smaller]

I always made it simple, just around up. Just to be sure I wasn't robbing God.

Yep, kind of like not paying the government except with a possible far worse outcome. Filed under expenses:

"costs to avoid eternal hellfire."

 

[WIP]

There are a LOT of beautiful "country churches" that are in Minn. I was brought up in a similar manner. The believing people there are very much individually responsible folk, generally speaking, who bonded together as church communities out of real and genuine needs to work together as believing farmer rancher communities. Literally for their mutual survival. Harsh country makes people serious about their faith, and their work.

I still enjoy an occasional lutefisk pot luck here and there when I get the chance to partake. Fond memories for the most part.

View attachment 8293

Wow, does that look like a photo of our church before we added the front entry.

 

[smaller]

Some subtle differences. But yeah, originally ALC. Congregation when I was a kid primarily Scandinavian immigrants, second generation. Most of the generational membership since was absorbed into the local Evangelical Free in town.