Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[Chopper]

Check me on this, Brother Chopper.
We accept Christ, are born again. All of our sins are blotted out, and we stand unblemished. The next day we sin...are these sins already forgiven/blotted out, we go on our merry way without concern?
Or we repent, confess them, and ask forgiveness?

I'm reminded of King David. Kept sinning and yet is called a man after God's own heart. He would get back up and turn back to the Lord, is why.

Good point Edward. The main thrust of this thread will be essentially I sin, therefore I need forgiveness, therefore I confess and God forgives me, phewww, that's the end of that sin, it's gone. NO IT'S NOT!

 

[Chopper]

I sure like it here and generally learn from everyone. In this thread it appears two paths have been described to follow.
and in those two paths presented I find certain pieces in each I disagree with.

Hi there my new friend. This is going to be a long thread because there is a lot of ground to cover. Hopefully, any questions that you might have will be explained as we narrow down to the main thrust of the thread and that is consequences of sin. So important for the serious Christian, like yourself, to know, and fear sinning.

 

[Chopper]

Wow! Thank you all for your participation in OUR thread. I say ours because your input is going to help build this very important topic for Christians today. Especially me and you.

Lets look again at the Scripture that is the springboard for this thread.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Lets look at the Commandments of that Moses received from the our Heavenly Father, Jesus the Son of God and the blessed Holy Spirit. I mention all three because we will see a blending of these in Matthew Chapter 5 when Jesus once again gives us Commandments. Lets look at the famous 10 Commandments. I do not see anything to get all legalistic about. The Scribes and Pharisees of the Old Testament took these and made thousands of do and don't which legalism in the true sense of the word came about.

My main thrust of this thread is, these are the Commandments that we keep if we are truly born again because they are written in our hearts, we just need to adhere to them. Is there anything in these Commandments that you can't keep?

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
5.Honour thy father and thy mother
6.Thou shalt not kill
7.Thou shalt not commit adultery
8.Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
10.Thou shalt not covet

To be continued....

 

[JLB]

Perfect JLB.

Yes, I've said many times that we're to decide whom we will serve.
So when I said the person is walking in the WRONG direction, it meant toward the world, the evil one, then they repent, turn around and go toward God. There are only TWO choices.

So repenting is, by definition, for the unbeliever.
(although the word is used incorrectly many times).

Once you're a believer, you are sorry for your sins and confess them. You've already changed direction.

Wondering

After you have being born again, and have received the Holy Spirit, then the transformation can begin, which includes repenting of sins, and iniquities.

This is the process of becoming a son of God, in which we can be led by the Spirit, and eventually walk with God as Jesus did.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi Brother Mike,
Haven't seen you around. Nice to have you back.
Why isn't this a good thread? It's a very good thread. Here's why:
Some Christians think they could do whatever they want to and put it under the blood.
Some Christians think they're still living under the Law or Old Covenant - when God said to the Jews in the desert of Sinai " Do This and You Will Be My People." Exodus 19:5 So they feel that to please God they must do everything just right and not miss one dot or iota. Mathew 5:18

Both are wrong! We can't do whatever we want. Jesus gave specific instrucitions. He wouldn't have said we have to do so many things unless we have to really do them. In fact, Jesus made the Law MORE difficult, He said if you HATE your brother you have already MURDERED him. Heavy stuff. So He raised the bar. He said to love your enemies. The Jews hated the Romans. He wanted them to pray for the Romans? I'm thinking of the parable of the two sons. Mathew 21:28-31 Which son did the Father's will?
The one WHO WENT. Even though he had originally said he wouldn't.

So what's the difference? Jesus also said in Mathew 12:8 that He is the Lord of the Sabbath. He has authority, He commands, He decides. He's in charge of the New Covenant. If we accept the N.C., He will also give us the strength to follow the Law. Through love, not through force. And if we're failing in something, He has already filled that Law for us and we are already forgiven (when asked) for He died for all sins - past, present and future.

I think we're saying the same thing. 613 commandments - 10 commandments - 2 commandments.
If you keep those two, you keep all the 10. The others have REALLY been abolished! (civil and ceremonial laws).

I think understanding this concept - which I may not be able to explain properly - could really free us up in our devotion to God.

Wondering

I think I should have said I don't agree with the OP. It's wrong, it's worded Wrong. The Ordinances have been abolished for the punishment sake. Thou shalt not commit adultery is worthy of However, Love is a law unto itself and does not commit adultery. I have no commandment but to love another. Now as a new believer I put no such burden as it's written whom much is given, much is required. Our soul was not born again, it needs transformed so there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

"So you think you are saved" This is not the outward appearance of the acts of the flesh. You can't take laws to judge a person.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
(Isa 29:13 KJV)

Churches are filled with those who look great, but don't even know God. Their hearts are not with God, neither do they consider His path or His way.

The doctrine that God is mysterious is a Satanic poison. If you don't know God, then your left with a list to follow. If I am told to be somewhere and just get there late or not at all then it's time to repent. If I handle something OK, but not the best with all the Wisdom and power of the Holy Spirit available then it's time to repent. I have learned now not to move until I get direction.

Heb_8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You know God as a Father? Do you know God through the commandments and idea's of man?

Mike.

 

[reba]

Churches are filled with those who look great, but don't even know God. Their hearts are not with God, neither do they consider His path or His way.

As I understand it , this is what this thread is about...We as adults should be able to look past the e x a c t wording (semantics) and see the love and spirit behind/intertwined within...
This thread is timely, a great one for Bible study... Not a simple subject that can be squeezed into an OP or even a few posts...

 

[smaller]

Ten Commandments = 2 Commandments = 1 Commandment = LOVE.

WONDERFUL!

Romans 13:8-10 shows this as well. Perfectly imho, applying Love as the fulfillment of every command in the scriptures. Yes, all boiled down to one very simple premise that Jesus Himself has given us by His Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 

[for_his_glory]

deleted by me

 

[for_his_glory]

To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

There are laws that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws keep us in line with the will of God that we present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us as a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Matthew 22:
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

BTW, the ten commandments are not separate from the 613 Levtical laws as they are part of the laws, but man tries to separate them. From the very beginning it has always been about Gods commandment to love.

 

[smaller]

There are laws that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws keep us in line with the will of God that we present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us as a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Using that claim what ever are we to do with Matt. 4:4 or Luke 4:4 that says man, and I take that to be man in the universal sense of humanity/every person who has ever lived, is to live by every Word of God?

Or the writers of the N.T. who point the fact that the law contains shadows of both Christ and things to come? Heb. 10:1 for example? I had to put aside the notion that ANY Word of God was not meant for ME if I wanted to harmonize Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 and Hebrews 10:1, among other citings of similar intentions.

Paul also shows us that the law is spiritual in Romans 7 and has other uses such as providing the knowledge of sin, and even giving strength to sin. 1 Cor. 15:56 for example. As such I again find it problematic to eliminate any Word of God from the portfolio of Christians. Difficulties in harmony notwithstanding.

Those who eliminate the Word of God on any basis for any person will be a contrived position in my sight. I can't get there and maintain harmony by elimination of the Word of God. It can't be done legitimately imho.

We should be able to recognize the the bulk of the N.T. writings were based and founded on O.T. Words of God, meaning ALL of them.

 

[smaller]

Had you remembered that receiving Christ as Lord and Savior and repentance toward God are two sides of the same coin, the question of "the next day we sin" would not come up. Repentance means a turning away from sins and idols and that is essential for salvation -- "Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19).

And no, if a Christian does sin, he does not go on his merry way without concern. Far from it. Scripture makes it clear that we are to examine ourselves constantly, particularly before partaking of the Lord's Supper. And there are serious consequences for Christians who fail to repent or continue to practice sin.

And we might add to the difficulties of these matters when we recognize that exactly zero believers by any means or actions can claim "truthfully" they are not sinners regardless.

So, yeah. Judgment is the most difficult scriptural gig to harmonize, period.

 

[smaller]

What do you mean?

You repent once. You're walking in the wrong direction, you repent, you change your direction and walk towards God. Okay.

After that you're SORRY for your sins.
Is this what you mean?

Wondering

We can be as sorry as we want. It still doesn't make us non-sinners or sinless.

 

[GodsGrace]

We can be as sorry as we want. It still doesn't make us non-sinners or sinless.

Didn't say it does Smaller. We still need to be sorry for our sins. If we're not sorry, how are we forgiven? Are you not sorry when you sin?

We were talking about repentance. You repent once, when you decide to serve God. You make a conscious decision to serve Him one time - after that you go ahead and serve Him. That doesn't mean you'll never sin, but it does mean you'll be sorry.
1 John 2:1

Wondering

 

[for_his_glory]

Using that claim what ever are we to do with Matt. 4:4 or Luke 4:4 that says man, and I take that to be man in the universal sense of humanity/every person who has ever lived, is to live by every Word of God?

Or the writers of the N.T. who point the fact that the law contains shadows of both Christ and things to come? Heb. 10:1 for example? I had to put aside the notion that ANY Word of God was not meant for ME if I wanted to harmonize Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 and Hebrews 10:1, among other citings of similar intentions.

Paul also shows us that the law is spiritual in Romans 7 and has other uses such as providing the knowledge of sin, and even giving strength to sin. 1 Cor. 15:56 for example. As such I again find it problematic to eliminate any Word of God from the portfolio of Christians. Difficulties in harmony notwithstanding.

Those who eliminate the Word of God on any basis for any person will be a contrived position in my sight. I can't get there and maintain harmony by elimination of the Word of God. It can't be done legitimately imho.

We should be able to recognize the the bulk of the N.T. writings were based and founded on O.T. Words of God, meaning ALL of them.

Are you a Hebrew who lives under the law waiting for Messiah to come? Do you practice the rituals of the Temple? Do you make blood sacrifices for sin? Do you participate in all the festivals, study the Torah? Are you a Kohanim, King or Nazarite? If you are than I would expect you to keep all 613 laws as they carry a curse if not all are followed.

Jesus fulfilled the laws of the sacrifice and the rituals of the Temple as when that vail of the Temple was torn from top to bottom we now are to only keep those of the moral laws God gave in the OT until the time of Christ return then all will be fulfilled as what we are to keep that is written on our heart is the law of love which all the moral laws that I listed.

 

[smaller]

Are you a Hebrew who lives under the law waiting for Messiah to come?

I live by the dictates of Jesus in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 which says every Word of God is applicable to man and that includes ME. That's why I brought it up. Trying to toss away Gods Words on the basis of "who" they were delivered to doesn't and will not compute.

Do you practice the rituals of the Temple? Do you make blood sacrifices for sin? Do you participate in all the festivals, study the Torah? Are you a Kohanim, King or Nazarite? If you are than I would expect you to keep all 613 laws as they carry a curse if not all are followed.

And your claim, which is not true btw, is that is ALL those Words of God mean and are intended for. I reject that claim on the basis I delineated prior. The Apostles never threw away Gods Words of the O.T. Not one single Word of God was eliminated by them.

Do temple writings of the O.T. shadow temple matters in the new? ABSOLUTELY.

 

[smaller]

Didn't say it does Smaller. We still need to be sorry for our sins. If we're not sorry, how are we forgiven? Are you not sorry when you sin?

Being sorry doesn't make us sinless. If we think it DOES then we are merely made into liars in thinking it does. So, yeah, there is a bit of a trap there in being sorry if we think that makes us sinless or non-sinners. I refuse being turned into a liar by any form of ritual or "sorriness." That is a deception of sin. We can cry and whine and repent all the day long and through every bit of exercises we were and remain sinners regardless.

I gave up on walking away from the altar with a piece of bread in my mouth thinking I was "now sinless and clean" again because it was just a common lie and a religious game that people use to feel good about themselves.

Why not just be honest? It's much more refreshing. And more importantly, IT'S TRUE.

We were talking about repentance. You repent once, when you decide to serve God. You make a conscious decision to serve Him one time - after that you go ahead and serve Him. That doesn't mean you'll never sin, but it does mean you'll be sorry.
1 John 2:1
Wondering

We can attach any number of exercises to these matters. The conclusions won't change the fact of being sinners. More problems will come to liars about the fact of being one.

 

[GodsGrace]

To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

There are laws that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws keep us in line with the will of God that we present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us as a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Matthew 22:
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

BTW, the ten commandments are not separate from the 613 Levtical laws as they are part of the laws, but man tries to separate them. From the very beginning it has always been about Gods commandment to love.

I highlighted two sentences of yours.

I don't understand. You want someone to show you where it says that Jesus fulfilled all the Laws. Then you quote where He says it: Mathew 5:17
Doesn't Jesus say here that He came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it? I already spoke on this and will not repeat - what do you think fulfill means?

Then in the 2nd highlighted sentence you say that the decalogue cannot be separated from the Levitical Laws because they are part of the 613 Laws.

Are you saying you keep all the 613 Laws?
Plus, we have to separate them. Jesus took care of the civil and ceremonial law. We are left with the moral Law - the decalogue. But this has been fulfilled too - but Jesus said not one iota of the Law will be pass away till all is accomplished. Till what is accomplished? Jesus said from the cross, It Is Finished.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Being sorry doesn't make us sinless. If we think it DOES then we are merely made into liars in thinking it does. So, yeah, there is a bit of a trap there in being sorry if we think that makes us sinless or non-sinners. I refuse being turned into a liar by any form of ritual or "sorriness." That is a deception of sin. We can cry and whine and repent all the day long and through every bit of exercises we were and remain sinners regardless.

I gave up on walking away from the altar with a piece of bread in my mouth thinking I was "now sinless and clean" again because it was just a common lie and a religious game that people use to feel good about themselves.

Why not just be honest? It's much more refreshing. And more importantly, IT'S TRUE.

We can attach any number of exercises to these matters. The conclusions won't change the fact of being sinners. More problems will come to liars about the fact of being one.

I fail to see where I said that we're not sinners.
You could show me the sentence if you saw it.

I've always said this: The closer we are to God the MORE we feel like sinners. Because we see His perfection.

Wondering
P.S. Do you think people take communion to make themselves feel sinless and clean, or to remember the Lord's sacrifice as a community like He said to do? I should say "remembrance."

 

[smaller]

Does Jesus save sinners?

The answer is YES! 1 Tim. 1:15.

Now, why is it then that everyone goes about trying not to be one? That seems heading in the wrong direction. Is it so hard to come to the conclusion that we are sinners and that Jesus saves sinners?

No, that is the only obvious fact to land on for honest believers. No amount of "external performances" is going to change this. Nor is ANY form of accountability or responsibility going to prove us sinless or non-sinners. Paul claimed the exact OPPOSITE position. That of being the CHIEF of sinners, after salvation, employing the term "I am."

None of us, looking on the outside of Paul would have made that conclusion. We would have concluded the opposite. But Paul did not go there and he did not because he was NOT a lying hypocrite. He was telling the TRUTH.

 

[smaller]

I fail to see where I said that we're not sinners.
You could show me the sentence if you saw it.

I've always said this: The closer we are to God the MORE we feel like sinners. Because we see His perfection.

Wondering

Will note once more. Repenting or being sorry doesn't change the fact that we are sinners. Nor will responsibility or accountability change that fact either.

We might just have to come to the conclusion that we are sinners and that Jesus saves sinners.