Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[JLB]

Of course you have to believe to be saved. But this is the man who falls away when he is tempted.

Did the man believe?


Yes, and was born again, as indicated by the plant spouting.




JLB

 

[JLB]

thinking this through but a seed sprouts - a little sprout grows out and keeps growing until it becomes a root

No sir.


A plant first has roots then it spouts.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I guess it's just God's plan to separate the wheat from the chaff. Jesus said temptation is necessary.

Were not discussing tares and wheat.

That’s a different parable.

Tares are the seed of the wicked one.


We are discussing the gospel message and the principle by which the seed planted by Jesus, not Satan, developes in those who believe.


Those who don’t believe are not saved.



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

No sir.


A plant first has roots then it spouts.

JLB

you are right - i was calling new roots "shoots" but i guess the plant coming out of the ground is the shoot/sprout - ooops

 

[JLB]

See, when Paul means the faith which is in Christ Jesus, He says so in his sentences.


You chopped off his sentence where he explained exactly what he means by “depart from the faith”.




I did. The underlined part in the rest of Paul’s sentence, which you chopped off again.

I quoted the complete verses with the context.


Please stop making up false things about me.


It’s up to you now, to define the biblical term, “the faith”.


Please explain to all of us, what the biblical term “the faith”, means.




Here’s mine from the definitions thread I started.

• The term “the faith” in the Bible refers to our common faith in Christ Jesus for salvation.

Scripture teaches we are in a common “household of faith” as family.


Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:10



Scripture texts -


Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude 1:3




Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
2 Corinthians 13:5



And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ. But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.” Galatians 1:22-23



till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, Ephesians 4:13-14



Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, To Timothy, a true son in the faith: 1 Timothy 1:1-2



This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:18-20



Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 1 Timothy 3:8-9



For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 3:13



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8



For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1 Timothy 6:10

• The Holy Spirit through the writers of the New Testament, urge us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, and earnestly contend for the faith, as well as keep the faith, so that we do not depart from the faith, or stray from the faith or even, as some, become shipwreck concerning the faith we have in Christ Jesus.

Specifically the Holy Spirit warns us of the last days whereby some will depart from the faith, because they listened and gave heed to doctrines of demons.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



https://christianforums.net/Fellows...tanding-biblical-words-and-terms.78426/page-3




JLB

 

[JLB]

"but speak the truth in love"

this truth is clear in Scripture, it is not talking about controversial doctrines

It’s totally referring to false doctrines.


The common doctrine, we are to adhere to, and obey, and teach is the doctrine of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


This is the doctrine His Apostles taught.


It is also referred to as the Apostles doctrine, and is what we call the New Testament.




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

Did the man believe?

Yes, and was born again, as indicated by the plant spouting.

JLB

if the parable of the sower was about believers falling away then it sounds like very few will be saved and most will fall away -and lose their salvation -

 

[JLB]

if the parable of the sower was about believers falling away then it sounds like very few will be saved and most will fall away -and lose their salvation -

Only one quarter of those who hear the Gospel will reproduce the seed.


As it is written -

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14




JLB

 

[JLB]

someone losing their salvation sounds very scary -

I don’t like to say the phrase “lose our salvation”.


Jesus is our salvation.


He isn’t ever going to be lost.


We on the other hand can indeed become lost, if we wander from the truth.


That’s why false teachers have a special place in hell, as they lead people away from the truth, and cause them to become lost, and depart from the faith.


But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
2 Peter 2:1-3



JLB

 

[chessman]

what did he say about the parable of the sower?

It’s 34 pages on this parable alone (not to mention his notes). I’ll post some of his points under some of yours. They correspond! But first, some overall points he makes about it:

1. ...other than Matthew’s parables of the Wheat and the Weeds and the Net, it’s the only parable given a detailed interpretation and Title.​

​

2. It is given pride of placement in all three synoptic Gospels​

​

3. It is THE parable of parables.​

In other words, getting this one understood ‘right’ is a lesson on getting His other parables understood ‘right’. Thus Jesus’s question to His disciples:

the parable of the sower talks about different soil

The parable and its interpretation are a midrash [i.e. Divinely inspired commentary in this case on Is 6] on Is 6:9-10.​

​

And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in them, the one saying [in Isa 6:9-10]: ‘ In hearing, you will hear and by no means understand. And while seeing, you will see and by no means perceive.​

Matthew 13:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:14&version=DLNT​

​

“The parable focuses on the responsibility of hearing, understanding and responding to Jesus’ message.”​

​

Thus He insured His disciples ‘heard’ it properly, understood (perceived) it properly AND responded to it properly as well (my $.02). After explaining why He spoke in parables to the crowd, He gave His disciples its interpretation in private:

“You therefore, hear the parable of the one having sown: Anyone hearing the word of the kingdom and not understanding it— the evil one comes and snatches-away the thing having been sown in his heart. This person is the one having been sown the seed along the road.​

Matthew 13:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:18-19&version=DLNT

​

Snodgrass (SG) means the soil’s response (i.e. people’s response including His disciples and the people of Israel) is THE focus of the parable! So, you and SG agree. Me too.

“... the importance of hearing that is not mere hearing but hearing that leads to action.”​

​

“To some degree interpretation of the parable is determined by whether one focuses on the sower, the soil, the seed, or the harvest. So many nuances have been suggested that sorting them out is akin to sorting hay in a haystack.”​

​

“This parable, as we will see, is about God sowing his people in the land in fulfillment of his promises, which directly tied to Isaiah 6 and its message about how people hear and respond to God’s message.”​

hard soil that was so hard the Word never entered into the soil

“The parable is a description of various responses to hearing God’s word and surely depicts the responses Jesus encountered in His own ministry.”​

and the last soil that was good ground that persevered and bore fruit

“...it [the parable] anticipates real and productive hearing. Real hearing is hearing that leads to obedience, and we should not forget that the Hebrew verb for hearing (sama) is often translated in English as “obey”.​

so i can see how the persevering soil was the good attentive understanding soil - SAVED

“Those who respond with real hearing receive added revelation. For those who respond with superficial hearing, even what they heard is of no effect”​

the other soils either fell away right away or somewhere later - they never understood and persevered

“Receiving the kingdom with joy is not enough-a message the modern church desperately needs to hear. Faith that is temporary and unproductive is not true faith.”​

“The only valid hearing is hearing that produces. Anything else falls under the indictment of Isa 6:9-10.”​

​

“Five times he uses the verb “synienai” (understand) in connection with the parable and then at the end of the parable’s (sic) discourse Jesus asks his disciples if they understand these things (Matt 23:51). Real hearing for Matthew means understanding in a way that transforms one’s identity and is evident in obedience.”​

 

[chessman]

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

Why does Peter start out this sentence with “but”?

 

[JLB]

Why does Peter start out this sentence with “but”?

Still waiting for your definition of the biblical term “the faith”.


Otherwise, it seems you just follow what I post to try and redefine what the scriptures say, by redefining the biblical words that are used in scripture.



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

It’s 34 pages on this parable alone (not to mention his notes). I’ll post some of his points under some of yours. They correspond! But first, some overall points he makes about it:

1. ...other than Matthew’s parables of the Wheat and the Weeds and the Net, it’s the only parable given a detailed interpretation and Title.​

​

2. It is given pride of placement in all three synoptic Gospels​

​

3. It is THE parable of parables.​

In other words, getting this one understood ‘right’ is a lesson on getting His other parables understood ‘right’. Thus Jesus’s question to His disciples:

The parable and its interpretation are a midrash [i.e. Divinely inspired commentary in this case on Is 6] on Is 6:9-10.​

​

And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in them, the one saying [in Isa 6:9-10]: ‘ In hearing, you will hear and by no means understand. And while seeing, you will see and by no means perceive.​

Matthew 13:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:14&version=DLNT​

​

“The parable focuses on the responsibility of hearing, understanding and responding to Jesus’ message.”​

​

Thus He insured His disciples ‘heard’ it properly, understood (perceived) it properly AND responded to it properly as well (my $.02). After explaining why He spoke in parables to the crowd, He gave His disciples its interpretation in private:

“You therefore, hear the parable of the one having sown: Anyone hearing the word of the kingdom and not understanding it— the evil one comes and snatches-away the thing having been sown in his heart. This person is the one having been sown the seed along the road.​

Matthew 13:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:18-19&version=DLNT

​

Snodgrass (SG) means the soil’s response (i.e. people’s response including His disciples and the people of Israel) is THE focus of the parable! So, you and SG agree. Me too.

“... the importance of hearing that is not mere hearing but hearing that leads to action.”​

​

“To some degree interpretation of the parable is determined by whether one focuses on the sower, the soil, the seed, or the harvest. So many nuances have been suggested that sorting them out is akin to sorting hay in a haystack.”​

​

“This parable, as we will see, is about God sowing his people in the land in fulfillment of his promises, which directly tied to Isaiah 6 and its message about how people hear and respond to God’s message.”​

“The parable is a description of various responses to hearing God’s word and surely depicts the responses Jesus encountered in His own ministry.”​

“...it [the parable] anticipates real and productive hearing. Real hearing is hearing that leads to obedience, and we should not forget that the Hebrew verb for hearing (sama) is often translated in English as “obey”.​

“Those who respond with real hearing receive added revelation. For those who respond with superficial hearing, even what they heard is of no effect”​

“Receiving the kingdom with joy is not enough-a message the modern church desperately needs to hear. Faith that is temporary and unproductive is not true faith.”​

“The only valid hearing is hearing that produces. Anything else falls under the indictment of Isa 6:9-10.”​

​

“Five times he uses the verb “synienai” (understand) in connection with the parable and then at the end of the parable’s (sic) discourse Jesus asks his disciples if they understand these things (Matt 23:51). Real hearing for Matthew means understanding in a way that transforms one’s identity and is evident in obedience.”​

yes - that is how i see that parable also

 

[chessman]

i'm not sure how we can find out for sure who is seeing/interpreting accurately and who is not

In the case of this particular parable, we HAVE it’s divine interpretation.

But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much , and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”​

Matthew 13:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:23&version=LEB

How many soils understood the word of God in this particular parable?

 

[Truthfrees]

In the case of this particular parable, we HAVE it’s divine interpretation.

But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much , and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”​

Matthew 13:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:23&version=LEB

How many soils understood the word of God in this particular parable?

great point - only one understood - the rest did not

 

[JLB]

Dear Father in Heaven - You are the One we all love honor obey - please work in all of us in this thread so we all can see from You what Jesus meant - please speak to all our hearts and minds and show us Your truth about this issue - please intervene in our human relationships so that we can discuss things in a more effective manner - we all love You and Your words - help us learn the truth as a family who hears from You and grows in wisdom and understanding by Your power - set each of us free from anything that is skewing our understanding of what You are saying in scripture - we want to grow and learn and be strong in You - in Jesus' wonderful name amen

Amen!





JLB

 

[JLB]

great point - only one understood - the rest did not

So with all that said, what is still the defining, foundational principle of being saved?

Believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


I don’t see where we need 50 pages of commentary, to understand this.




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

So with all that said, what is still the defining, foundational principle of being saved?

Believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

I don’t see where we need 50 pages of commentary, to understand this.

JLB

good point - the hard soil did not believe - so that kind of person was not saved

the other 2 rocky and thorny - if they did not understand could they believe? - what did they believe? - if you misunderstand what you heard can you be truly believe and be saved?

 

[chessman]

So with all that said, what is still the defining, foundational principle of being saved?

Believe.

Does the Biblical word for believe include obey?

 

[GodsGrace]

Parables, by definition, are not plain or clear. Even His disciples were confused by their meaning at times (thus His interpretation of a few for them). The Parable of the Sower being THE prime example of this principle.

Jesus spoke in parables for a few reasons.
None of them was so they could be unclear.
The Apostles wanted to make sure that they understood their rabbi....He was saying some pretty original stuff.

We don't need to be confused by Jesus' parables...they were told to teach a spiritual truth using physical objects...like wheat, trees, bread, water, slaves, kings, etc. All things they knew about at that time.

The parable of the sower could be expounded upon...books have been written on each gospel, for instance --- probably chapters could be written on one parable...that does not make it nonunderstandable.

The first two soils did not accept the word.
One accepted the word and then got lost.
One accepted the word and held on to it.