Soul Sleep

[n2thelight]

Many teach that at death we sleep until Christ returns,I don't believe from scripture this to be the case....

I offer these verses from Mark as my evidence


Mark 12:26 "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' "

Jesus is saying here, "now lets talk about the dead for a moment." Jesus is reminding these Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead, yet God has said, I am the God of these men, and if God were the God of these men at Moses time, than each of these three men would still have to be alive. To be a God over anybody they would have to be alive to have a God over them. The meaning to this is that nobody is dead yet...


Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you inEcclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.
II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Excerpt taken from the below

http://www.theseason.org/mark/mark12.htm

Any thoughts???

 

[JLB]

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16

• Jesus died and rose again...

Paul defines the Christian experience by Christs' experience. The way it happened with Jesus is the way it will happen with us.

• even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

those who "sleep" in Jesus, that is to say those who have died are with Him. They return with Christ when He returns, so that those who have died will receive their new body as Christ received His. Those who have died are with Him where He is, not is "soul sleeping" in the grave.

for it is written -

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The fact that the entire Church will receive their New bodies at the same time is evident here.


for it is written -


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23




JLB

 

[Grappler]

Many teach that at death we sleep until Christ returns,I don't believe from scripture this to be the case....

I offer these verses from Mark as my evidence


Mark 12:26 "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' "

Jesus is saying here, "now lets talk about the dead for a moment." Jesus is reminding these Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead, yet God has said, I am the God of these men, and if God were the God of these men at Moses time, than each of these three men would still have to be alive. To be a God over anybody they would have to be alive to have a God over them. The meaning to this is that nobody is dead yet...


Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you inEcclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.
II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Excerpt taken from the below

http://www.theseason.org/mark/mark12.htm

Any thoughts???

I am going to attempt to change your mind. You said 'many' teach soul sleep. Actually there is many more that do not teach it....and i think they should. I once believed like you in the traditional mainstream church view that the dead go to heaven or hell at death but on a closer study of scripture i have decided that soul sleep is the truth, though i will admit this is one of those "gray" areas that we so often come across in scripture. Let us start with this...John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." Why would Jesus tell his disciples that he would come back one day and get them if they were with him in heaven when they died? Ofcourse if you label yourself a preterists then i suppose in your mind Jesus has already returned but i am pretty sure that you don't believe that nonsense.

 

[Grappler]

Many teach that at death we sleep until Christ returns,I don't believe from scripture this to be the case....

I offer these verses from Mark as my evidence


Mark 12:26 "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' "

Jesus is saying here, "now lets talk about the dead for a moment." Jesus is reminding these Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead, yet God has said, I am the God of these men, and if God were the God of these men at Moses time, than each of these three men would still have to be alive. To be a God over anybody they would have to be alive to have a God over them. The meaning to this is that nobody is dead yet...


Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you inEcclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.
II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Excerpt taken from the below

http://www.theseason.org/mark/mark12.htm

Any thoughts???

Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:7,8 is your opinion. Those who use this scripture to argue against soul sleep always conveniently leave out the word "rather". Paul did NOT say that when our body dies that we go to be with Jesus...he said the he would RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord....what child of God wouldn't rather be with Jesus? Considering all the other verses that Paul plainly says the dead are asleep this in no way means that Paul is saying that when our bodies die we go straight to heaven.

 

[John 8:32]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Plainly says that those who die, are dead and not made alive until the return of Christ.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These scriptures do not say that the body is resurrected, they say the person is made alive again.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I had a dream last night.
I was in the presence of God looking at him.
He lowered his hand over my face and I went to sleep.
Then he raised his hand over my face and I woke up.

I realized that God puts us to sleep everyday to give us rest and we don't wake up until he wakes us up.
We have no control over it. He does.

And I realized that it's the same in heaven.
He puts us to sleep and wakes us up whenever he wants.
He's in control, not us.

So if we soul sleep or not, it doesn't matter.
God is in control.

 

[John 8:32]

The problem people have in understanding this is the persistent false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. When one finally comes to the understanding that...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And that...

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

It is not too difficult to understand that we die, remain asleep until the resurrection and then are made alive again at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Many teach that at death we sleep until Christ returns,I don't believe from scripture this to be the case....

I offer these verses from Mark as my evidence


Mark 12:26 "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' "

Jesus is saying here, "now lets talk about the dead for a moment." Jesus is reminding these Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead, yet God has said, I am the God of these men, and if God were the God of these men at Moses time, than each of these three men would still have to be alive. To be a God over anybody they would have to be alive to have a God over them. The meaning to this is that nobody is dead yet...


Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

I will begin by stating that I actually am on the fence in regards to issues related to this, but I am by no means ignorant of the texts presented from both sides.. What I continue to see though is the same proof-texts offered that are ripped out of their context and misused. This passage in particular.

What we need to discern is what Jesus meant by this statement, did he use this argument to prove the soul is immortal and lives on? If so, that doesn't disprove soul-sleep as people who believe in soul sleep still believe the soul is alive and not dead, just in a sleep-like state until the resurrection. Let's examine the context.

And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, Mark 12:18(ESV)

You see, the issue being presented here from the start is the RESURRECTION, not the intermediate state. This is further demonstrated as we go along.

“Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the mane must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.” Mark 12:19-23(ESV)

The Sadducees here tried to ask Jesus a trick question in an attempt to disprove the Resurrection, why? Because they didn't BELIEVE in the Resurrection of the dead!

Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. Mark 12:24-25(ESV)

Jesus here answers the question, saying that the reason they are wrong is because they neither know the Scriptures (referring to the OT Scriptures which teach the Resurrection of the dead) nor the power of God, which will not only raise mankind on the last day, but will also raise Christ from the dead.

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.” Mark 12:26-27(ESV)

Here is the greatest problem with this proof-text, Jesus isn't saying, "Let's talk about the dead for a minute," he is talking about the dead being RAISED, the Resurrection... NOT the intermediate state.

That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

This denies the bodily resurrection, this is a great heresy and comes from Gnosticism.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19(ESV)

Look at Paul's reasoning here, if the dead are not raised.. if there is no resurrection.. then CHRIST has not been raised from the dead, and we are still in our sins and have been misrepresenting God and indeed will perish and are of all people most to be pitied. The bodily Resurrection of the dead is our greatest hope! To deny this is perhaps a heresy too great to even be called a Christian.

I hope you don't support this rubbish...

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you inEcclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.

This is another failed proof-text used from this website.. I would not support this website as it supports Gnostic heresies.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7(KJV)

Compare with this:

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life's breath returns to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7(NET)

This is an allusion back to the creation of Adam, not an affirmation that some kind of "spirit" goes back to God who gave it, the dead went to Sheol when they died.

then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Genesis 2:7

Notice here, the word for breath in Genesis 2:7 is the same word for "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 12:7, indeed what this is saying is that the God who originally breathed into our nostrils to give us life and formed us from the dirt... will one day withdraw that breath and to dust we shall return (the grave).

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.
II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Excerpt taken from the below

http://www.theseason.org/mark/mark12.htm

This proof-text also fails to look at the context..

Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:2-4

Notice, he clarifies that it's not that he would want to be unclothed, here is referring to his physical mortal body, but be FURTHER clothed. That which is mortal.. this physical body will be swallowed up in life, this is referring to our future glorified bodies in the eternal state.

Any thoughts???

Honestly, I don't think people who soul-sleep are an issue, as they put a great emphasis on the true hope of the Christian, which is the bodily resurrection. This website is utter rubbish and supports some of the earliest and most dangerous heresies there are, which are thoroughly refuted all throughout Scripture.

I certainly hope you deny these statements...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I will begin by stating that I actually am on the fence in regards to issues related to this, but I am by no means ignorant of the texts presented from both sides.. What I continue to see though is the same proof-texts offered that are ripped out of their context and misused. This passage in particular.

What we need to discern is what Jesus meant by this statement, did he use this argument to prove the soul is immortal and lives on? If so, that doesn't disprove soul-sleep as people who believe in soul sleep still believe the soul is alive and not dead, just in a sleep-like state until the resurrection. Let's examine the context.

And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, Mark 12:18(ESV)

You see, the issue being presented here from the start is the RESURRECTION, not the intermediate state. This is further demonstrated as we go along.

“Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the mane must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.” Mark 12:19-23(ESV)

The Sadducees here tried to ask Jesus a trick question in an attempt to disprove the Resurrection, why? Because they didn't BELIEVE in the Resurrection of the dead!

Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. Mark 12:24-25(ESV)

Jesus here answers the question, saying that the reason they are wrong is because they neither know the Scriptures (referring to the OT Scriptures which teach the Resurrection of the dead) nor the power of God, which will not only raise mankind on the last day, but will also raise Christ from the dead.

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.” Mark 12:26-27(ESV)

Here is the greatest problem with this proof-text, Jesus isn't saying, "Let's talk about the dead for a minute," he is talking about the dead being RAISED, the Resurrection... NOT the intermediate state.

This denies the bodily resurrection, this is a great heresy and comes from Gnosticism.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19(ESV)

Look at Paul's reasoning here, if the dead are not raised.. if there is no resurrection.. then CHRIST has not been raised from the dead, and we are still in our sins and have been misrepresenting God and indeed will perish and are of all people most to be pitied. The bodily Resurrection of the dead is our greatest hope! To deny this is perhaps a heresy too great to even be called a Christian.

I hope you don't support this rubbish...

This is another failed proof-text used from this website.. I would not support this website as it supports Gnostic heresies.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7(KJV)

Compare with this:

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life's breath returns to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7(NET)

This is an allusion back to the creation of Adam, not an affirmation that some kind of "spirit" goes back to God who gave it, the dead went to Sheol when they died.

then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Genesis 2:7

Notice here, the word for breath in Genesis 2:7 is the same word for "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 12:7, indeed what this is saying is that the God who originally breathed into our nostrils to give us life and formed us from the dirt... will one day withdraw that breath and to dust we shall return (the grave).

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.
II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Excerpt taken from the below

http://www.theseason.org/mark/mark12.htm

This proof-text also fails to look at the context..

Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:2-4

Notice, he clarifies that it's not that he would want to be unclothed, here is referring to his physical mortal body, but be FURTHER clothed. That which is mortal.. this physical body will be swallowed up in life, this is referring to our future glorified bodies in the eternal state.

Any thoughts???

Honestly, I don't think people who soul-sleep are an issue, as they put a great emphasis on the true hope of the Christian, which is the bodily resurrection. This website is utter rubbish and supports some of the earliest and most dangerous heresies there are, which are thoroughly refuted all throughout Scripture.

I certainly hope you deny these statements...

I don't see by what authority you have to put down your fellow christians.

Maybe you need to take a good hard look at yourself instead of us.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't see by what authority you have to put down your fellow christians.

Maybe you need to take a good hard look at yourself instead of us.

I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! Galatians 5:12

Wow, Paul.. you wish for the circumcision party who is teaching that Christians are required to be circumcised still.. would just cut off the rest of it? Way to put down your fellow Christians Paul.... maybe you need to take a good hard look at yourself...

When Christianity is attacked at it's core, Christians being dead to the law to serve in the newness of the Spirit.. no one will be justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. Paul used very strong words, even calling them who teach this to emasculate themselves, heresy is not to be lightly dealt with in some cases.

In this instance, we find a VERY grievous heresy. It denies the bodily resurrection of the dead and therefore by implication the bodily resurrection of Jesus which is a denial of the gospel and thus will damn a person to hell if they believe it. It is one of the ESSENTIALS of the faith, and that is why I used very strong language to refute the article that this poster was quoting and vehemently warning them not to support it.

Also, I was calling that WEBSITE utter rubbish.. which it is for all those who love the gospel and place their hope on the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. I did not insult this poster personally, as it was unclear whether or not he supported these teachings.

Whoever wrote this however is NOT a Christian.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't see by what authority you have to put down your fellow christians.

Maybe you need to take a good hard look at yourself instead of us.

I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! Galatians 5:12

Wow, Paul.. you wish for the circumcision party who is teaching that Christians are required to be circumcised still.. would just cut off the rest of it? Way to put down your fellow Christians Paul.... maybe you need to take a good hard look at yourself...

When Christianity is attacked at it's core, Christians being dead to the law to serve in the newness of the Spirit.. no one will be justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. Paul used very strong words, even calling them who teach this to emasculate themselves, heresy is not to be lightly dealt with in some cases.

In this instance, we find a VERY grievous heresy. It denies the bodily resurrection of the dead and therefore by implication the bodily resurrection of Jesus which is a denial of the gospel and thus will damn a person to hell if they believe it. It is one of the ESSENTIALS of the faith, and that is why I used very strong language to refute the article that this poster was quoting and vehemently warning them not to support it.

Also, I was calling that WEBSITE utter rubbish.. which it is for all those who love the gospel and place their hope on the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. I did not insult this poster personally, as it was unclear whether or not he supported these teachings.

Whoever wrote this however is NOT a Christian.

Are you God?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Are you God?

Of course not, however we as Christians can stand by the truthfulness of GOD'S WORD as it is very clear on certain things, that those who preach a false gospel and destructive heresies ought to be rebuked. All Scripture is God-Breathed and is profitable for teaching, rebuking and training in righteousness. It's not all frolicking in fields and singing kumbaya, those who attack the gospel from within the Church need to be identified and rebuked sharply.

Or do we not have authority from the word of God to rebuke those who preach another gospel, or who live in sin, or who preach destructive heresies which can destroy those who believe it? Woe to the man who stands idly by while the wolves in sheeps clothing attack the sheep.. the people of God.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul lays out his gospel, that is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, and in the very next section he takes up an issue where some have been saying that there is no Resurrection.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not be resurrected either.. and indeed our gospel is a failed gospel since we were misrepresenting God. Indeed the whole gospel stands on bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, so that when those who preach that there is no resurrection.. they preach a different gospel and according to Galatians 1:8-9 they are considered anathema.. accursed. We are not to accept men as brothers who preach a clearly different gospel then the one delivered to us by Jesus and his apostles.

Love does not delight in wrongdoing, but it delights in the TRUTH! Jesus came with grace AND TRUTH! So must we.

 

[WIP]

The Bible teaches that we are to treat each other with humility, respect, and love. Who among us is qualified to judge? Jesus said, "Judge not lest you be judged." Let's be careful how we treat each other.

 

[Guest]

My theory is this. For example, why would God send someone to hell that died in the year 1887 to be tormented longer than someone who just died now, closer to his coming..just because you were born earlier. If this is true then the pharisees have been burning in hell for 2,000 years, lol.

 

[n2thelight]

Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:7,8 is your opinion. Those who use this scripture to argue against soul sleep always conveniently leave out the word "rather". Paul did NOT say that when our body dies that we go to be with Jesus...he said the he would RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord....what child of God wouldn't rather be with Jesus? Considering all the other verses that Paul plainly says the dead are asleep this in no way means that Paul is saying that when our bodies die we go straight to heaven.

So what would you have me do with the below verses


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."
The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.
The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.
God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

Also did not Moses and Elijah appear with Christ on the mount,if soul sleep were true,those two should have been sleeping,and one more thing,how can Christ bring those who have died back with Him,if the are not already with Him

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

And one more

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Are not these people those who have died,if so ,which I believe them to be,why are they not asleep?

 

[n2thelight]

My theory is this. For example, why would God send someone to hell that died in the year 1887 to be tormented longer than someone who just died now, closer to his coming..just because you were born earlier. If this is true then the pharisees have been burning in hell for 2,000 years, lol.

Hello Urk

I don't feel no one goes to hell at death,I believe that happens after the Great White Throne Judgement,Im one who takes the parable of the begar and the rich man,literally,so I believe that there really is a gulf that seperates us at death,while we wait on the judgement....

 

[Guest]

I don't feel no one goes to hell at death,I believe that happens after the Great White Throne Judgement,Im one who takes the parable of the begar and the rich man,literally,so I believe that there really is a gulf that seperates us at death,while we wait on the judgement....

Hey there, I surely hope there is a paradise between death and judgment day. That would be awesome, wouldn't it. To know you're at peace with God after you die. We just won't know until we die, i guess. For now there's a job we must do while we're still alive.

p.s. do you have scripture about non soul sleep that agrees with you. blessings.

 

[Butch5]

Many teach that at death we sleep until Christ returns,I don't believe from scripture this to be the case....

I offer these verses from Mark as my evidence


Mark 12:26 "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' "

Jesus is saying here, "now lets talk about the dead for a moment." Jesus is reminding these Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead, yet God has said, I am the God of these men, and if God were the God of these men at Moses time, than each of these three men would still have to be alive. To be a God over anybody they would have to be alive to have a God over them. The meaning to this is that nobody is dead yet...


Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you inEcclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.
II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Excerpt taken from the below

http://www.theseason.org/mark/mark12.htm

Any thoughts???

Are you a Christian? I've not seen Christians deny the resurrection of the flesh.

 

[n2thelight]

Are you a Christian? I've not seen Christians deny the resurrection of the flesh.

I'll let Paul explain it for ya

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.
Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.
It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

II Corinthians 5:1 "We know that if your earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

We know that our flesh body that houses our soul in time is going to died. Upon death of the flesh body our soul moves into its spiritual body which is not like these flesh bodies but eternal. The "tabernacle" was the earliest form of the temple for it was a tent. It served as a temporary house of God until the beautiful structure would be built later. This is why your earthly flesh body is considered a "tabernacle", for God has never intended your soul to dwell in that flesh body but for the short period of time that you are here on earth in this second earth age. We know that our flesh body is very fragile, and when you don't take care of it, it develops all sorts of problems.

That inner body where our spirit dwells is eternal and not like the flesh bodies. When the flesh body goes to the grave, the inner body has already departed to be with the Father. For it was God that placed your soul in your embryo at the time of conception. There are no intermissions like some like to believe, but that inner man lives a continuous life from the day that it was created in that first earth age, throughout it's life in this age of the flesh, and right on into eternity with the Father. There is no soul sleep anywhere. Sometimes the flesh body has to sleep to regain its strength, but that is not so with your inner body. Your soul is unending from the time it was created way back in the eons of time.

http://www.theseason.org/2corin/2corin5.htm


As for me being a Christian,that I am !!!!!!

 

[Butch5]

Are you a Christian? I've not seen Christians deny the resurrection of the flesh.

I'll let Paul explain it for ya

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.
Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.
It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

II Corinthians 5:1 "We know that if your earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

We know that our flesh body that houses our soul in time is going to died. Upon death of the flesh body our soul moves into its spiritual body which is not like these flesh bodies but eternal. The "tabernacle" was the earliest form of the temple for it was a tent. It served as a temporary house of God until the beautiful structure would be built later. This is why your earthly flesh body is considered a "tabernacle", for God has never intended your soul to dwell in that flesh body but for the short period of time that you are here on earth in this second earth age. We know that our flesh body is very fragile, and when you don't take care of it, it develops all sorts of problems.

That inner body where our spirit dwells is eternal and not like the flesh bodies. When the flesh body goes to the grave, the inner body has already departed to be with the Father. For it was God that placed your soul in your embryo at the time of conception. There are no intermissions like some like to believe, but that inner man lives a continuous life from the day that it was created in that first earth age, throughout it's life in this age of the flesh, and right on into eternity with the Father. There is no soul sleep anywhere. Sometimes the flesh body has to sleep to regain its strength, but that is not so with your inner body. Your soul is unending from the time it was created way back in the eons of time.

http://www.theseason.org/2corin/2corin5.htm


As for me being a Christian,that I am !!!!!!

There is nothing from man that lives on after the body dies. There is no "soul" that continues on. In the resurrection God will resurrect these flesh bodies and one again breath His breath into it and it will live.