The demands for proof

[Mike]

There is nothing more fascinating than engaging in apologetics with believers and nonbelievers who aren't fixed on their position. And there's nothing more futile and disengaging to me than dealing with people in both groups who are. In all my years here on CFnet, I don't recall seeing a nonbeliever come to accept the Truth.

Most of the reason for this seems to be the agenda of the nonbeliever who joins a Christian discussion board, but some of it falls on us. We can be guarded and defensive. Okay. I'll speak to myself. Pride interrupts my message, and I don't want to be manipulated. God changes hearts and He does it in His time, but we often want to force the change. It often takes place over time when we make ourselves willing vessels to build relationships and the trust of nonbelievers. I pray every day in my devotionals for the capacity to be evidence of His love. When they know me, I want them to know proof.

WIP was spot on, in my experience. I'm sure it's by design that there is no absolute proof of His Truth. It's there for those who open themselves to it, but it's nonexistent to those who don't. As CS Lewis said, that's evidence in and of itself.

 

[OzSpen]

Mike,

You wrote: 'In all my years here on CFnet, I don't recall seeing a nonbeliever come to accept the Truth'.

Do you remember 1 Cor 3:7 (NIV)? 'So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow'.

You and I may never see the germination of what is planted. That is up to God.

Oz

 

[Hospes]

Many atheists are naturalists; they assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws (Wikipedia). One interesting conversation to start with such people is how difficult it would be for me adopt what they believe because of the meaninglessness to which it leads. Pretty much the conversation is about how naturalism provides no real value in loving, hating, enjoying, etc. anything. I will state something like "As best I can tell, to believe like you do would mean everything I care about most deeply and find most satisfying, all my passions in life, have no permanent value or meaning. I look down that black void to which your beliefs lead, and I just don't find it very attractive."

Though some atheists are all enthusiastic about attacking and mocking Christian belief, they rarely seem to think about where their own belief system leads them. Confession: there is a wicked pleasure I get in the discomfort I detect when writing to an arrogant atheist - all full of the missionary zeal to tear down Christian faith - and showing them the meaningless to which their own belief system leads.

 

[smaller]

Many atheists are naturalists; they assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws (Wikipedia). One interesting conversation to start with such people is how difficult it would be for me adopt what they believe because of the meaninglessness to which it leads. Pretty much the conversation is about how naturalism provides no real value in loving, hating, enjoying, etc. anything. I will state something like "As best I can tell, to believe like you do would mean everything I care about most deeply and find most satisfying, all my passions in life, have no permanent value or meaning. I look down that black void to which your beliefs lead, and I just don't find it very attractive."

Though some atheists are all enthusiastic about attacking and mocking Christian belief, they rarely seem to think about where their own belief system leads them. Confession: there is a wicked pleasure I get in the discomfort I detect when writing to an arrogant atheist - all full of the missionary zeal to tear down Christian faith - and showing them the meaningless to which their own belief system leads.

They seldom, if ever have accurate views of Christian faith. What they DO have are some very legitimate criticism of SOME false postures that do exist in the christian realm. I do not buy these forms of equation from them.

The reality is that the carnal man, the flesh man, the blinded by the god of this world man can NOT see unless the curtains are rolled back for them, from Christ Himself.

If they have heard the witness of Christ as 'their' Savior, then it really is up to Christ to do or not do, to make them see. Presenting Christ as their enemy will do nobody any favors. People do not believe threats. They MAY more likely be caught with the guile of LOVE.

 

[Tony Hyman]

I have thought about this most of the day and have come to the conclusion 1. If some-one chooses not to believe in "Christ as our only saviour"Jh 3:16, then so be it and just walk away 2.They don't want to believe because it makes life uncomfortable and one has to lose so many "nice fleshy goodies" and hang on to the "old man" Eph 4:22-24. In most cases deep down they know they are wrong but try and justify themselves by looking for "proof of God".The Bible clearly states "Do not put the Lord your God to the test" (Mt.4:7 cf 6:16.N.I.V)

Both Paul and Peter offer this advice on how to deal with non-believers should one choose to deal with the issue which is not optional it would seem, but rather a Christian duty imposed "5.Be wise in the way you act towards outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.6.Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt,so that you may know how to answer everyone."(Col.4:5-6)Peter says much the same thing " Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."(1 Pet.3:15b).If this doesn't crack it; then bear in mind Paul also points out "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."(2 Cor 4:4)So we must do our very best to open their eyes and save them from the "blindness" that Satan has caused.So their is homework involved on the part of the" believer" as far as studying God's Word in order to be an effective weapon in "saving souls".Each believer should know what God expects from him or her in a given situation I would imagine.

 

[OzSpen]

[QUOTE="Pretty much the conversation is about how naturalism provides no real value in loving, hating, enjoying, etc. anything. I will state something like "As best I can tell, to believe like you do would mean everything I care about most deeply and find most satisfying, all my passions in life, have no permanent value or meaning. I look down that black void to which your beliefs lead, and I just don't find it very attractive."
[/QUOTE]

In my many years of employment and working with atheists who may have been naturalists, sceptics and rationalists, I have worked with some who love wife, children and friends. They hate to see what cigarette smoking is doing to the lungs of smokers. They hate rapists. They enjoy fishing and boating, volunteering in not-for-profit organisations.

I grant you that some of these actions are not the logical outcome for an atheistic-naturalistic worldview. It does not flow from atheism. However, there are atheists who are humanitarians with impact.

See the article, 'Atheist Charity'.

Oz

 

[Hospes]

In my many years of employment and working with atheists who may have been naturalists, sceptics and rationalists, I have worked with some who love wife, children and friends. They hate to see what cigarette smoking is doing to the lungs of smokers. They hate rapists. They enjoy fishing and boating, volunteering in not-for-profit organisations.

I grant you that some of these actions are not the logical outcome for an atheistic-naturalistic worldview. It does not flow from atheism. However, there are atheists who are humanitarians with impact.

My point was not to tell naturalists they do not have loves, hates, joy, etc... (God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust.) My point is to show them their own professed beliefs provide no basis for giving any intrinsic worth to loves, hates, joy, etc... Their worldview does not "fit" their experience.

I'd also argue it is only in the economy of the world does a deed count as good. Jesus made it pretty clear it is the condition of the of the heart that determines whether or not a deed is truly good, i.e. consistent with God's character.

 

[burning heart]

WIP nailed it , only God can . Hebrews 8 : 7 - 12 . To paraphrase , says the Lord : I will put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts . And ... None of them shall teach his neighbor and none his brother saying " know the Lord " , for all shall know Me . Maybe we just need to be the conduit to that . Nothing we can say or do can prove God to anyone , only God can do that . What we can do is encourage a person to read the Holy Bible , specifically the NT . However , he must understand that he must maintain an open mind for the Holy Spirit to teach him .If he comes into this outright denying the power of God and keeps that attitude in his study , his closed mind will not allow the Holy Spirit to work . Tell him to say , don't tell him to pray , before he reads , to through out there something like this . If their is a God , I want to know the truth , please help me understand . Tell him to say this every time he reads , even though he doesn't believe , and that he must keep an open mind . Tell him he won't understand much , that comes from spending much time in the word with the Holy Spirit . But if he is open to learning , the Holy Spirit will encourage him to keep going , and if your around to help , excellent . Encourage him to go to church .

 

[OzSpen]

WIP nailed it , only God can . Hebrews 8 : 7 - 12 . To paraphrase , says the Lord : I will put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts . And ... None of them shall teach his neighbor and none his brother saying " know the Lord " , for all shall know Me . Maybe we just need to be the conduit to that . Nothing we can say or do can prove God to anyone , only God can do that . What we can do is encourage a person to read the Holy Bible , specifically the NT . However , he must understand that he must maintain an open mind for the Holy Spirit to teach him .If he comes into this outright denying the power of God and keeps that attitude in his study , his closed mind will not allow the Holy Spirit to work . Tell him to say , don't tell him to pray , before he reads , to through out there something like this . If their is a God , I want to know the truth , please help me understand . Tell him to say this every time he reads , even though he doesn't believe , and that he must keep an open mind . Tell him he won't understand much , that comes from spending much time in the word with the Holy Spirit . But if he is open to learning , the Holy Spirit will encourage him to keep going , and if your around to help , excellent . Encourage him to go to church .

You obviously don't live in a post-Christian culture like I did. Most of what you wrote here would be worthless in speaking to an Aussie secularist on the streets of Brisbane.

I invite you to come Down Under and try that approach in the Queen Street Mall, Brisbane, in your witnessing for Christ.

As for Hebrews 8:7-12 (ESV), that is addressing the Hebrews and the difference between the Old and New Covenants. It is not discussing how a secular person becomes a Christian.

Oz

 

[Indiana Guy]

I, as an agnostic, do not ask for proof anymore. I used to enjoy arguing with Christians for proof. I guess as I get older and maybe a little softer, I just figure what's the point?
If you truly believe, great. I have no issues with religious people (peaceful religion) anymore. Really I feel happy for them.
I'm not sure how someone can call themself a true atheist, because as I understand it atheism is believing a God is not possible.
We know almost nothing of the universe, why it's here, how it got here. How could we possibly know it wasn't created by some being/force that we don't have the intelligence to even understand?
Since I can't answer that, I can't be atheist.
I dunno. That's kind of where I'm at. Not closing the door on anything, I accept that I may change my mind someday.

 

[Malachi]

We know almost nothing of the universe, why it's here, how it got here. How could we possibly know it wasn't created by some being/force that we don't have the intelligence to even understand?

This is exactly why human beings were given a Divine Revelation. Christians do know a great deal about the universe, about creation, about the purpose for creation, about the future of the universe. Indeed, Christians who believe the Bible are not in the dark.

Men take all kinds of writings of other men and accept them for what they are. But when it comes to the Word of God, men make all kinds of excuses to reject it. But God says that no one is without excuse. His creation reveals His eternal power and Godhead.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I've always felt like I can understand where atheists come from and that quite a few of their thoughts and objections make sense. It is what led to my own crisis of faith, after all.
Maybe not for everybody, since people get drawn in different ways and I've heard of people brought into the faith through apologetics and research. (Though probably not solely based on that.) But for me the faith came first, answers to my questions came later with time, study, and research. There are some answers I'm still waiting on that I may never know until I get to heaven. But I think that there will always be unanswered questions no matter what you believe.

 

[OzSpen]

I, as an agnostic, do not ask for proof anymore. I used to enjoy arguing with Christians for proof. I guess as I get older and maybe a little softer, I just figure what's the point?
If you truly believe, great. I have no issues with religious people (peaceful religion) anymore. Really I feel happy for them.
I'm not sure how someone can call themself a true atheist, because as I understand it atheism is believing a God is not possible.
We know almost nothing of the universe, why it's here, how it got here. How could we possibly know it wasn't created by some being/force that we don't have the intelligence to even understand?
Since I can't answer that, I can't be atheist.
I dunno. That's kind of where I'm at. Not closing the door on anything, I accept that I may change my mind someday.

Even eminent 'atheist' Richard Dawkins has softened his stance to that of agnosticism. I have written about this in, Is Richard Dawkins an agnostic or an atheist?

You say, 'We know almost nothing of the universe, why it's here, how it got here. How could we possibly know it wasn't created by some being/force that we don't have the intelligence to even understand?' All is not as difficult as you make it sound. Why don't you engage with us so that we can discuss:

• How the universe came into being.
• Why it is here,
• Where is it going? i.e. What's the future for the universe?

God has provided special revelation to provide that information. Are you ready to discuss it?

We do have evidence that the universe was created by a being greater than you and me. Let's discuss further - if you want.

What kinds of evidence would encourage you to change your mind?

In which part of Indiana do you live? My family and I lived for a couple of years in Terre Haute.

Oz

 

[Indiana Guy]

Sure Oz I'll listen.
I'm from southern Indiana, just across the river from Louisville.

 

[OzSpen]

Sure Oz I'll listen.
I'm from southern Indiana, just across the river from Louisville.

I've driven your way a few times in 1982-1984 era.

Why don't you prod us with a few questions?

Oz

 

[Indiana Guy]

I've driven your way a few times in 1982-1984 era.

Why don't you prod us with a few questions?


Oz

Well I really didn't join this site to get into debates, or for anyone to get butthurt.
I'm not looking to be saved, or to try and convert you guys. <evil smirk>
Seriously I don't want to start any trouble or be called a troll (as I have on an atheist site), but I must say I'm curious about this knowledge of the universe you talk about.

 

[littlemr]

This is a spill over topic from a different conversation, but worth some consideration and if anyone has any suggestions, some input too.

When confronted with a demand for proof that your faith is valid, either by asking for proof of God, evidance that Christianity (faith in Jesus) is the right religion, or that you yourself are a worth while Christian and asked for proof/evidance that you have faith and follow God; when asked or demanded any of these how do you respond?

For me, the one I've encountered the most is demands of proof that God exists. Usually a demand made by an atheist who is trying to shut up a Christian because they don't want to hear it any more, or start a fight or debate with Christians. At least those are my experiences with the question. But I hope there are others who ask because they really are searching, as opposed to because they use the topic of proof as a trump card to kill any spiritual conversations. Or because they find it intresting or entertaining to ask for proof, but have already come to their own conclusions.

And because of this one of my reactions to the demand for proof is skeptism if they really want to know. After all, the proof I have is from my life and thus personal to me. It's not a philosophy or an argument that can be dragged through the mud in a debate and end up not harming my feelings. So if a person really wants to know I'll share. If I find that I doubt that they are sincere, I have in the past told some people that if they demand proof, then the burden to find it is theirs not the believers, because they have the desire to know it. Or I have reacted that life is full of evidance of God, how can anyone be blind to it, and scolded the person that they were lazy to not look for themselves.

That said those are my experiences with the question. If your in a conversation with mixed religions, proof of God isn't the issue, proof of Christianity can be the demand. Or in the audience of fellow Christians and the conversation has gone south, the demand to prove your faith, or that you are a genuine Christian.

Since these are all demands and challenges to proof, and because I don't think reacting in a negitive or angry tone should be our response like I have in my examples above, does anyone have some insight on handling these situtions, or insight that might either relieve the tension for proof or answer the demands for proof?

I say just live like Jesus and the proof will follow, wisdom is proven by what results from it the bible says. You see it's wisdom that people need not miracles, when you see people demanding miracles they are not sincere.

 

[OzSpen]

Well I really didn't join this site to get into debates, or for anyone to get butthurt.
I'm not looking to be saved, or to try and convert you guys. <evil smirk>
Seriously I don't want to start any trouble or be called a troll (as I have on an atheist site), but I must say I'm curious about this knowledge of the universe you talk about.

Let's start with how the universe began. The first verse of the Bible states it briefly but clearly, 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth' (Genesis 1:1 ESV).

1. 'In the beginning' (Hebrew bereshith) refers to the beginning of created things, the absolute beginning. The Septuagint (Greek OT) translated it as en arche, which is a strong reference to the absolute beginning of everything. Here in the Hebrew, the noun, reshith, is without the definite article, thus confirming it as equivalent to a proper noun and affirming this was the Absolute Beginning. The world did not exist before this time.

2. What or who was in the begging? Gen 1:1 (ESV) states clearly that Someone was there in the beginning to make the universe. He is elohim (God), a Hebrew name derived from the Arabic and it means 'to fear' and 'to reference'. The word promotes the view of God that he is the one whose nature arouses fear and reverence in human beings. Elohim is used 2,570 times in the OT (Leupold 1942:40). From Genesis 2:4, God is revealed as yahweh, the one who is faithful and merciful.

3. 'Created' is the Hebrew bara that refers to some epoch making event and in this instance there was no pre-existing material mentioned or implied (bara can refer to creation from existing material. See Isa 65:18 (ESV). So, in Gen 1:1 (ESV), the passage teaches that God created without pre-existing material, i.e. out of nothing. Creation ex nihilo (out of nothing) also is taught in Rom 4:17 (ESV); Heb 11:3 (ESV). See also Psalm 33:6, 9 (ESV); Amos 4:13 (ESV).

4. What did God create? Gen 1:1 (ESV) states, 'the heavens and the earth'. Today we would say 'the universe'. However, the Hebrew had no word for universe. It could say, 'The all' (e.g. Jer 10:16; Isa 44:24; Ps 103:19; 119:91; Eccl 11:5). The word, shamayim indicates upper region and since it is plural it refers to heavenly upper regions or spheres. Ereta, 'earth', means 'that which is lower. So, 'the heavens and the earth', is a reasonable phrase to convey the meaning that the Almighty God created the universe.

This is the knowledge from Genesis 1:1 (ESV) that God has provided about the beginning of all things. This is only the beginning. Some more knowledge follows in Gen 1, Gen 2, etc. This is not to satisfy some contemporary, scientific framework, but it provides all the information God wanted us to know about the start of all things in the beginning.

Oz

Works consulted
Leupold, H C 1942. Exposition of Genesis, vol 1. London: Evangelical Press (copyright The Wartburg Press).

 

[Indiana Guy]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Oz.
For me to accept that as fact would mean I would have to believe the bible is the true word of God. I'm not there.
I would like some scientific answers, but I understand that's not likely to happen in my lifetime. Which sucks because I am absolutely fascinated with the universe.

 

[reba]

In classic old Christian style ... Reba says 'Hey Indiana Guy I know the Guy who created that universe '