The demands for proof

[Indiana Guy]

In classic old Christian style ... Reba says 'Hey Indiana Guy I know the Guy who created that universe '

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Oz.
For me to accept that as fact would mean I would have to believe the bible is the true word of God. I'm not there.
I would like some scientific answers, but I understand that's not likely to happen in my lifetime. Which sucks because I am absolutely fascinated with the universe.

Your worldview will limit you from discovering lots in our world.

• How will you demonstrate that Columbus discovered America by seeking empirical, scientific answers?
• How will you discover that a Ford ute is better than a General Motors ute by the scientific method?
• What about the history of the universe and the timeline of people in history? You will never discover that by empirical science?
• You will not discover God and the vitality of a living faith through Jesus Christ by seeking scientific answers of the universe.
• How reliable are the scientific books and websites you read? How will your scientific method for the universe work in discovering that trustworthiness?

Do you understand the restrictions you are placing on yourself by your very limited worldview?

Oz

 

[Indiana Guy]

I think you misunderstand me Oz. I am far from close minded. And I don't consider my worldview limited, very open actually.
As open as I am, as much as I have studied, I simply cannot force myself to believe in something that defies my logic and requires so much faith.
Believe me, I wish it weren't that way. Maybe someday I will come to a different conclusion, I'm still learning as I go and embrace that.

Btw when I say I wish it weren't that way, that kinda sounds as if I'm unhappy. Not the case, I'm a very happy, lucky to be me, goofball.

 

[Tony Hyman]

I would like some scientific answers, but I understand that's not likely to happen in my lifetime. Which sucks because I am absolutely fascinated with the universe.

With all respect "Indiana ", what proof would you like to see or satisfy or be satisfied with, outside that which is plainly out there for all to see; and operational, regardless of whether one is a believer or not.

 

[Mike]

In classic old Christian style ... Reba says 'Hey Indiana Guy I know the Guy who created that universe '

Name-dropping the Creator of the universe. Expert level name dropping.

OzSpen I liked Indy Guy's first post that got you engaged. He respectfully expressed his perspective on the topic at hand and said he'd prefer not to get into a debate. Let's respect that. If we're going to reach people who don't feel they need to be reached, I think it's best to meet them on their terms.

People generally don't care how much you know unless they know how much you care. I'm just suggesting you let him breath a bit. It's like I was saying early on in the thread. We make a mad dash for the choke hold instead of slowing our roll enough to get to know them.

Indiana Guy I know you don't need to be rescued. You can take care of yourself. I think it would be best to take our time, eeeease you gently into a chair, softly pull your chair into the dimly lit room, nicely strap your wrists to the chair handles, and then turn up the voltage.

 

[Indiana Guy]

Much respect Mike. Thank you.
I came here just to be able to talk to people who, other than religion, seem to share the same values.
Im an oddball agnostic. Unlike most others i have met that are VERY liberal.

Its kind of nice to talk to people outside of your "real life" circle every once in awhile.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I, as an agnostic, do not ask for proof anymore. I used to enjoy arguing with Christians for proof. I guess as I get older and maybe a little softer, I just figure what's the point?
If you truly believe, great. I have no issues with religious people (peaceful religion) anymore. Really I feel happy for them.
I'm not sure how someone can call themself a true atheist, because as I understand it atheism is believing a God is not possible.
We know almost nothing of the universe, why it's here, how it got here. How could we possibly know it wasn't created by some being/force that we don't have the intelligence to even understand?
Since I can't answer that, I can't be atheist.
I dunno. That's kind of where I'm at. Not closing the door on anything, I accept that I may change my mind someday.

That's really cool, Indian Guy. I appreaciate anyone who isn't trying to push others into their perspective. (And I hope I do the same more often then not.). I hope you get a good vibe while you're here at this site

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I say just live like Jesus and the proof will follow, wisdom is proven by what results from it the bible says. You see it's wisdom that people need not miracles, when you see people demanding miracles they are not sincere.

That's a very good outlook. Goes beyond this topic, and goes into how to live your life, and who to follow after.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I have thought about this most of the day and have come to the conclusion 1. If some-one chooses not to believe in "Christ as our only saviour"Jh 3:16, then so be it and just walk away 2.They don't want to believe because it makes life uncomfortable and one has to lose so many "nice fleshy goodies" and hang on to the "old man" Eph 4:22-24. In most cases deep down they know they are wrong but try and justify themselves by looking for "proof of God".The Bible clearly states "Do not put the Lord your God to the test" (Mt.4:7 cf 6:16.N.I.V)

Both Paul and Peter offer this advice on how to deal with non-believers should one choose to deal with the issue which is not optional it would seem, but rather a Christian duty imposed "5.Be wise in the way you act towards outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.6.Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt,so that you may know how to answer everyone."(Col.4:5-6)Peter says much the same thing " Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."(1 Pet.3:15b).If this doesn't crack it; then bear in mind Paul also points out "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."(2 Cor 4:4)So we must do our very best to open their eyes and save them from the "blindness" that Satan has caused.So their is homework involved on the part of the" believer" as far as studying God's Word in order to be an effective weapon in "saving souls".Each believer should know what God expects from him or her in a given situation I would imagine.

Be the salt of the earth, and the light. Don't hide the light any more then you would hide a lamp or a candle, but instead put it in a high place so others can see the way.

Those are the thoughts that you're reminding me of in this post, Tony. Because it's both about our actions to show grace and kindness, as well as our bring prepared to answer any questions, and give good reason. Both by good works and by sharing what we know are the ways I've heard sharing the light. You've captured the sentiment well.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I would like some scientific answers, but I understand that's not likely to happen in my lifetime. Which sucks because I am absolutely fascinated with the universe.

With all respect "Indiana ", what proof would you like to see or satisfy or be satisfied with, outside that which is plainly out there for all to see; and operational, regardless of whether one is a believer or not.

Ohhh there is so so much.
Ever see a sunbeam coming through a window and hit a glass table or a glass cup, and the "shadow" of that light pass through. As a kid the idea of light, prisms, and glass was just awesome. Still is.

Ever look at a plant and wonder how it makes it's fruit? We know a decent amount about our anatomy, and a little about different animals anatomy as well. And how they work. But I know absolutely nothing about how one plant makes a strawberry, and another makes a stalk of corn. The process of how we make any hormone in our body seems more well known then how nature makes any food that we eat.

Ever just look at the sky any be filled with wonder and awe. Night or day it doesn't matter, both times there's a lot to contemplate. And so much to wonder about and hope to understand.

Ever study the weird and strange things in life? Like water crystallization at certain temptress and making different beautiful or ugly crystals based on the enviornment of music, or words written on the containers of water. If it's true, is everything consciences? Or is our conscienceness affecting everything else around us. When prophets speak for God, calling out certain mountains as the witness of God's testimony, do they hear the testimony? Or is the weather aware of itself when Jesus rebuked it on the boat?

Then there's stuff of beauty. Rock formations, different kinds of stone, minerals, or even sand and dirt. At least the colored stones, and precious minerals are used in so many decorative jewelry, and in architecture, but the rest is just as fascinating. How they are formed, or why they are in one place but not in another.

There is so much more. The wonder of the world, and the awe of the universe. If there are any answers to any of it, they are all something of an intreast to me as well.

(Sorry Indiana Guy. Just had to answer this question for myself too.)

 

[OzSpen]

I think you misunderstand me Oz. I am far from close minded. And I don't consider my worldview limited, very open actually.
As open as I am, as much as I have studied, I simply cannot force myself to believe in something that defies my logic and requires so much faith.
Believe me, I wish it weren't that way. Maybe someday I will come to a different conclusion, I'm still learning as I go and embrace that.

Btw when I say I wish it weren't that way, that kinda sounds as if I'm unhappy. Not the case, I'm a very happy, lucky to be me, goofball.

Please accept my apologies, Indiana Guy. You certainly are different from many of the agnostics with whom I have engaged and I'm happy to ease into discussion with you.

When you are ready, we can discuss what seems like illogical and requires so much faith about the Christian faith. That's for later.

A happy, lucky to be me, goofball is a new one on me.

Oz

 

[Corn Pop]

Were all born in the mainstream by default, and anyone who follows the mainstream gets caught in the trap because this world has one rule and its all lies allowed.

I will give one reason why I believe in the books of the bible, its because all throughtout history the world has tried to destroy it, and that gives it all the more credibility.

 

[littlemr]

Were all born in the mainstream by default, and anyone who follows the mainstream gets caught in the trap because this world has one rule and its all lies allowed.

I will give one reason why I believe in the books of the bible, its because all throughtout history the world has tried to destroy it, and that gives it all the more credibility.

Do you know what I think the world is, it's us. It's the world we create in our heads, and others want us to live in their world. Many people have many different worlds, some good some bad. But God said get out of the world, leave the world (All of them) and come into his world.

 

[Corn Pop]

Do you know what I think the world is, it's us. It's the world we create in our heads, and others want us to live in their world. Many people have many different worlds, some good some bad. But God said get out of the world, leave the world (All of them) and come into his world.

That is why everything is corrupt and a million laws aint going to solve a thing. This world couldnt help itself even if it tried. Its called in the world not of the world.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you know what I think the world is, it's us. It's the world we create in our heads, and others want us to live in their world. Many people have many different worlds, some good some bad. But God said get out of the world, leave the world (All of them) and come into his world.

So are you saying you don't believe that the world consists of the universe? Is the world of the heavens and the earth a non-reality for you?

 

[littlemr]

So are you saying you don't believe that the world consists of the universe? Is the world of the heavens and the earth a non-reality for you?

I think people think that their world is the universe, one that will collapse in the end.

 

[OzSpen]

I think people think that their world is the universe, one that will collapse in the end.

You still haven't answered my question: Is the world of the heavens and the earth a non-reality for you?

 

[Mike]

Do you know what I think the world is, it's us. It's the world we create in our heads, and others want us to live in their world. Many people have many different worlds, some good some bad. But God said get out of the world, leave the world (All of them) and come into his world.

Oz doesn't seem to understand what you said, but I believe I do, and I found tremendous insight in your statement. We all have our unique perspective of the world around us. To each of us, the world is a little different, and that is the world we live in ourselves. God calls us to reject this world and not be pulled into it to live of it.

If that's not what you meant, then I'll take credit for this insight, but I'll still credit you for the inspiration.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz doesn't seem to understand what you said, but I believe I do, and I found tremendous insight in your statement. We all have our unique perspective of the world around us. To each of us, the world is a little different, and that is the world we live in ourselves. God calls us to reject this world and not be pulled into it to live of it.

If that's not what you meant, then I'll take credit for this insight, but I'll still credit you for the inspiration.

Why don't you extend to him the courtesy of telling me what he meant instead of putting your own interpretation on it?

Oz

 

[Mike]

Why don't you extend to him the courtesy of telling me what he meant instead of putting your own interpretation on it?

Sorry brother. I wasn't answering your question for him. Your name came up in my post only because you didn't seem to understand what he was saying, but I thought I did. I was clarifying his point for my own sake, because I liked it. No disrespect intended, and I don't think my post prohibits him from responding on his own anyway.