The Existence of the Godhead

[DarcyLu]

WHOA!!! Not so fast there ..

Two separate issues.

First, we now know that "ego eimi" does not mean Jehovah - since we have uses by individuals who are clearly not Jehovah. You and I agree on this. Correct??

Therefore, Jesus using ego eimi does not mean he is saying that he is Jehovah. ??[/quote]
when others, besides God in the OT and Jesus in the NT, said "i am", no, they were clarifying who they were, just as when God and Jesus used "I AM" they were clarifying who they were - which would be Jehovah.

Therefore, the issue is his statement about being before Abraham. The reality is that just because he talked about himself prior to Abraham does NOT mean that he is calling himself Jehovah (since ego eimi does not mean that one is Jehovah (which, btw, is correct - it does not mean that - it is a different Greek phrase that does) and there is NOTHING in the context that would tell us that he was claiming to be Jehovah (if you know of something, clue me in because I have read this passage 50 times over 30 years and never once seen it since we know that ego eimi does not mean Jehovah). He is simply saying that before Abraham was, he was something (which, in this case, the context decides (as you noted) and the context is - THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!

Best,
Anth

Jesus was very much telling us of His diety in this statement, He was and always has been Christ. If you compare the verses i gave you, it's obvious.

 

[DarcyLu]

ok...i really need to go to bed. Anth - maybe you'll get an epiphany tonight. :biglaugh

 

[Anth]

Darcy - go to bed - I need to do the same frankly

BUT when you wake up - you are going back and now claiming the ego eimi is the reason that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah - BUT we already dealt with that with respect to the blind man, Paul, etc.... so that can't be the case here...

 

[DarcyLu]

you are going back and now claiming the ego eimi is the reason that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah - BUT we already dealt with that with respect to the blind man, Paul, etc.... so that can't be the case here...

ego eimi means "i am" - agreed.

when ego eimi is used in context with what Jesus said in Jn 8:58, it is one of MANY ways Jesus tells us He is God.

 

[Anth]

when ego eimi is used in context with what Jesus said in Jn 8:58, it is one of MANY ways Jesus tells us He is God.

WHY?

How do you know??

Please provide statements with a genuine and clear basis to help an poor soul such as myself.

Best,
Anth

 

[DarcyLu]

when ego eimi is used in context with what Jesus said in Jn 8:58, it is one of MANY ways Jesus tells us He is God.

WHY?

How do you know??

Yes, school is in session - you cannot make statements without genuinely providing a basis.

Best,
Anth

anth, no offense but you are not my teacher, we are discussing some things and i am trying to show YOU Jesus is God although i admit i am not being very effective.

when we take the whole of the Word and put all of these statements together, we can not ignore what He is showing us:
1). Jesus was worshipped, i already gave you those verses, but you have conveniently ignored them.

2). the reason the Jews were so angry with Jesus was because He claimed to be God, His claim to divinity basically got Him killed, we can come to conclusions
a). Jesus was a liar, which would discredit His entire purpose
b). Jesus was really who He said He was (i'll help you - this is the correct answer. :biglaugh )

His claim to be God is evident by this statement made my the Jews:

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

God bless -

 

[Anth]

Darcy - I agree I am not your teacher. I have edited out my little tongue in check statement .. kind of referenced back to our original bit of such statements. Is that better?

Sorry,
Anth

 

[Anth]

when we take the whole of the Word and put all of these statements together,

Darcy,

When you do this - you begin using deductive rather than inductive reasoning ....

Let's stick to Jn 8:58 (or Jn1 where we originally started) and build up from a firm foundation on each text. Otherwise we don't really know what the "whole of the Word" even says...

I see no evidence of Jesus claiming to be Jehovah in Jn 8:58 or the very immediate context since we know that using ego eimi does not mean Jehovah. I am open to it but I don't think we will find it since both of us know the vs backwards and forward

Best,

Anth

 

[D4Christ]

There are many people who claim to be saved but aren't.
Those who have been born again do not come under condemnation.
We should be encouraging people to examine themselves to be sure they are truly saved, not suggesting that those who have been born again can ever fall away. It's important when reading the Word that we realize the hearers were a mixed lot. Saved and unsaved....which is why there were so many exhortations. Are we new creatures? Have we a circumcised heart? Have we entered into the rest? Do we have assurance? If we can answer yes, then we will not "fall away" since we have been born again and have entered into eternal life.

Hi glory…I understand where you are coming from. But I do believe that people can experience God and later on reject him. It’s no wonder that so many scriptures warn against people becoming spiritually dull and indifferent. They also warn people to hold on to the end….well what happens if you fall off the wagon before the end?

These warnings were not for unbelievers. I think there is an inherent danger for most people in thinking that because they said the sinner’s prayer on June 1, 1982 that they got a get out of jail free card …even if their lives today do not represent the commitment they made then. I’m sure there are more scriptures that would support the notion that believers can mess up… and for those believers who are not actively examining themselves to correct their behavior, they could be in for a rude awakening. It’s sad and I hope I’m wrong but I think more people hear and follow the word then are really changed by the word. But since only God knows the heart, then I agree with you that people should really be examining the “fruit†they produce daily before they get caught off guard…like a thief in the night.

Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

It’s not that I doubt the guarantee of salvation. But I think too many people take what they need to do on their parts too lightly. While salvation is a free gift, it comes with responsibility on our parts to live the way the Christ commanded us to. People seem to do and say what they want, over and over, and think if they say a quick sorry then all is forgiven and they can keep right on living in the same patterns of constantly sinning. They should take God’s warnings seriously.

Hebrews 2

1 So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it. 2 For the message God delivered through angels has always stood firm, and every violation of the law and every act of disobedience was punished. 3 So what makes us think we can escape if we ignore this great salvation that was first announced by the Lord Jesus himself and then delivered to us by those who heard him speak?

 

[glorydaz]

There are many people who claim to be saved but aren't.
Those who have been born again do not come under condemnation.
We should be encouraging people to examine themselves to be sure they are truly saved, not suggesting that those who have been born again can ever fall away. It's important when reading the Word that we realize the hearers were a mixed lot. Saved and unsaved....which is why there were so many exhortations. Are we new creatures? Have we a circumcised heart? Have we entered into the rest? Do we have assurance? If we can answer yes, then we will not "fall away" since we have been born again and have entered into eternal life.

Hi glory…I understand where you are coming from. But I do believe that people can experience God and later on reject him. It’s no wonder that so many scriptures warn against people becoming spiritually dull and indifferent. They also warn people to hold on to the end….well what happens if you fall off the wagon before the end?

These warnings were not for unbelievers. I think there is an inherent danger for most people in thinking that because they said the sinner’s prayer on June 1, 1982 that they got a get out of jail free card …even if their lives today do not represent the commitment they made then. I’m sure there are more scriptures that would support the notion that believers can mess up… and for those believers who are not actively examining themselves to correct their behavior, they could be in for a rude awakening. It’s sad and I hope I’m wrong but I think more people hear and follow the word then are really changed by the word. But since only God knows the heart, then I agree with you that people should really be examining the “fruit†they produce daily before they get caught off guard…like a thief in the night.

Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

It’s not that I doubt the guarantee of salvation. But I think too many people take what they need to do on their parts too lightly. While salvation is a free gift, it comes with responsibility on our parts to live the way the Christ commanded us to. People seem to do and say what they want, over and over, and think if they say a quick sorry then all is forgiven and they can keep right on living in the same patterns of constantly sinning. They should take God’s warnings seriously.

Hebrews 2
[quote:5m9b2dx8] 1 So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it. 2 For the message God delivered through angels has always stood firm, and every violation of the law and every act of disobedience was punished. 3 So what makes us think we can escape if we ignore this great salvation that was first announced by the Lord Jesus himself and then delivered to us by those who heard him speak?

[/quote:5m9b2dx8]
Unfortunately, the sinners prayer is only a first step and too many churches claim it means salvation. I have a nephew who gets "saved" every single time he goes to prison. He "experiences" God on a regular basis. Has he ever been born again? I don't think so. Some will claim he falls away....I don't think he was ever there to begin with. So we have a bunch of people claiming OSAS or Perseverance of the Saints is a false doctrine. It isn't that the Lord doesn't keep those who are His, it's that man misjudges who are His to begin with. The promises in the Word aren't wrong...the warnings aren't wrong, either. They're just directed to different people. I hear what you're saying, though, we need to encourage people to search their hearts...

 

[D4Christ]

Christ does not see himself as the Father incarnate, like some confused Buddha. Christ always understood that His role was to implement His Father’s plan as Saviour and ruler of Israel. There is no place in scripture where He compares His role as equal to His Father’s.

hi D4Christ,
then why does Jesus allow others to worship Him?

What is worship?

Mat 2:2

2 “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose, and we have come to worship him.â€

Strong’s#G4352

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons

Worship is a form of respect. Satan is not God and yet scriptures tell us that some will choose to worship him. There are clearly places in the bible when those other than the disciples worshipped Christ.

Hebrews 1 6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said,[c]
“Let all of God’s angels worship him.â€

Rev 5
6 Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if it had been slaughtered, but it was now standing between the throne and the four living beings and among the twenty-four elders
7 He stepped forward and took the scroll from the right hand of the one sitting on the throne. 8 And when he took the scroll, the four living beings and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they held gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song with these words:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and break its seals and open it.
For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
13 And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
belong to the one sitting on the throne
and to the Lamb forever and ever.â€
14 And the four living beings said, “Amen!†And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb.

God said He would not give His glory to another.

Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

So did God give Christ His glory and contradict the above verses or is the glory of the Father something that is activated thru His Son?

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

We see that;
1. The Father and Son shared glory before the world was made.
2. The glory of God glorifies the Son.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[glorydaz]

God said He would not give His glory to another.

Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

So did God give Christ His glory and contradict the above verses or is the glory of the Father something that is activated thru His Son?

[quote:1l34thyl] John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

We see that;
1. The Father and Son shared glory before the world was made.
2. The glory of God glorifies the Son.

Blessings,
Dee[/quote:1l34thyl]

The Son is God so there is not contradiction.
One God...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Just one God.

 

[D4Christ]

The Son is God so there is not contradiction. One God...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Just one God.

Philippians 2

5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
6 Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
and gave him the name above all other names,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Ok. The Father is God. The Son is God. God the Holy Ghost??? Just something man made up, for the scriptures clearly show us the role of the Holy Spirit as an advocate and teacher of Truth who only can say what he has been told. How much simpler scriptures would read if we stop trying to make 3 distinct beings into one person. These beings, who although act in union as one, therefore never contradicting one another, are in fact 3…count them 3 separate beings with only One..The Father…orchestrating all and in charge of all including His own Son, Christ. The Father is the One God, whom Christ serves, the angels serve, and all other beings serve.
1 Tim 1

5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

Again and again, Christ, (who is Divine as the Son of God…also making Him God), never confused his role as being the same as his Dad’s. Christ did what was asked of him and returns to be with his Father…not to become the Father.

John 17

1 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.
6 “I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything I have is a gift from you, 8 for I have passed on to them the message you gave me. They accepted it and know that I came from you, and they believe you sent me.
9 “My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you. 10 All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory. 11 Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are. 12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

I pray others will see the Truth and help stop the confusion that sends our brothers and sisters into the arms of Islam. Christ was not having a conversation with himself, nor was he obeying himself nor was he humbled to himself. He said himself that (as God) The Father was His God and our God. The Father works through Christ…The Father created the world thru Christ, The Father is our Savior thru Christ, The Father will judge thru Christ….Christ even uses his own Father’s name. And when His Son, to whom the Father gave all authority, conquers death (ie. throws death into the lake of fire after the GWTJ) then the Son will turn all the authority given to him back to his Dad…the Father. Kind of hard to do if you are all the same person. I for one cannot wait to see what the Son’s new name will be.
Blessings,
Dee

 

[glorydaz]

His Dad?.. :crazy There we go putting human attributes on God once again.
Jesus is no longer in the flesh. He has existed from the beginning...while in the flesh, he spoke as a man...now his time in the flesh is over. His work in the flesh is finished. The Alpha and Omega, the Everlasting Father, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lord, the great I AM, the Prince of Peace, Almighty God......One God...not three. Just ONE God.

What human child is called the "Everlasting Father?"

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

What human son was with His father from the beginning?
Who is the Creator?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Why is it that people can't believe what God has said? "I am he".

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Here's God saying he is the redeemer and creator.

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

And here's Jesus as the creator.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And of course...Jesus our redeemer.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[LaCrum]

Ok. The Father is God. The Son is God. God the Holy Ghost??? Just something man made up, for the scriptures clearly show us the role of the Holy Spirit as an advocate and teacher of Truth who only can say what he has been told.

It was by the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus performed his miracles and was raised from the dead, he’s not merely an advocate and teacher of Truth.

The Holy Spirit knows the depths of God because he is God’s Spirit (1 Cor. 2:10).

Not only that, he can be in multiple places at once (1 Cor 6:19), omnipresence is only an attribute that God has.

In John 3:5-8 Jesus speaks of the power of being born again is by the Holy Spirit, as well as reiterated again in Titus 3:5.

Peter in Acts 5:3 equates lying to the Holy Spirit as lying to God.


Additionally, Jesus only does his Father’s will as well, that does not make him any less God just as the Holy Spirit obeying the will of the Father make him any less God. Rather, it’s the natural order of their relationship which is clearly explained in 1 Cor. 11. They’re equal but with different roles.

I pray others will see the Truth and help stop the confusion that sends our brothers and sisters into the arms of Islam. Christ was not having a conversation with himself, nor was he obeying himself nor was he humbled to himself. He said himself that (as God) The Father was His God and our God. The Father works through Christ…The Father created the world thru Christ, The Father is our Savior thru Christ, The Father will judge thru Christ….Christ even uses his own Father’s name. And when His Son, to whom the Father gave all authority, conquers death (ie. throws death into the lake of fire after the GWTJ) then the Son will turn all the authority given to him back to his Dad…the Father. Kind of hard to do if you are all the same person. I for one cannot wait to see what the Son’s new name will be.
Blessings,
Dee

It’s extremely disingenuous to say that the reason people are Islamic is because the concept of the Trinity is too difficult to understand.

3 different persons, same God.

 

[Anth]

La Crum

1. ICor8:6 (w/Jn17:3), etc. - I find these contrary to any sort of Trinitarian thought - and find a pure monotheism strictly maintained in scripture (pure monotheism - God is one complete entity - no allocaton between nature and person - that is philosophical construct from certain early religious people, e.g. Tertullian).

2. Who is the person who cried out - "Not MY will be done.... The Human Person - Jesus - or the divine person God the Son??

Best,
Anth

 

[LaCrum]

1. ICor8:6 (w/Jn17:3), etc. - I find these contrary to any sort of Trinitarian thought - and find a pure monotheism strictly maintained in scripture (pure monotheism - God is one complete entity - no allocaton between nature and person - that is philosophical construct from certain early religious people, e.g. Tertullian).

2. Who is the person who cried out - "Not MY will be done.... The Human Person - Jesus - or the divine person God the Son??

Best,
Anth

Anth,

1. Just for clarity before I pursue further, are you contending that only God the Father is God and Jesus someone/something else?
2. Jesus was both fully God and fully Human, so I would say both. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit carry out the will of the Father. It’s their order of headship, it has nothing to do with equality. As I mentioned in 1 Cor. 11, Paul describes the marriage relationship between husband and wife the same way as he describes the relationship between the Father and the Son and while doing so, shows how men and women are equal but have different roles within the relationship.

 

[Dude named Louis]

Why cannot Jesus have been fully God and fully man at the same time? If He and the Father are one (John 10:30), why is this mystery so difficult to believe? I don't understand why some find the Trinity such a difficult concept yet believe in all of the miracles of Christ, the resurrection and all of the other magnificent events in scripture. There is obviously some unique relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[D4Christ]

Ok. The Father is God. The Son is God. God the Holy Ghost??? Just something man made up, for the scriptures clearly show us the role of the Holy Spirit as an advocate and teacher of Truth who only can say what he has been told.

It was by the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus performed his miracles and was raised from the dead, he’s not merely an advocate and teacher of Truth.

The Holy Spirit knows the depths of God because he is God’s Spirit (1 Cor. 2:10).

Not only that, he can be in multiple places at once (1 Cor 6:19), omnipresence is only an attribute that God has.

In John 3:5-8 Jesus speaks of the power of being born again is by the Holy Spirit, as well as reiterated again in Titus 3:5.

Peter in Acts 5:3 equates lying to the Holy Spirit as lying to God.

Additionally, Jesus only does his Father’s will as well, that does not make him any less God just as the Holy Spirit obeying the will of the Father make him any less God. Rather, it’s the natural order of their relationship which is clearly explained in 1 Cor. 11. They’re equal but with different roles.

It’s extremely disingenuous to say that the reason people are Islamic is because the concept of the Trinity is too difficult to understand.

3 different persons, same God.

I resent being called disingenuous because I have had multiple experiences where I have learned that the muslims that I have spoken to turned to islam because their Christian family members could not explain to them the concept of trinity, especially when Christ never says he is the Father. This is my experience as I watch more and more people getting wrapped up around me because they say Christians don’t even know their own bibles. If that is not your experience then so be it. The Trinity is not too difficult to understand. For me and others it just doesn’t make sense and I wish St. Basil and his cohorts never came up with the idea.

I also get that Yahushua is God. He was begotten of God so he couldn’t have any nature other than that of God. I have never said any different. But I will not deny the fact that Christ himself said he can only do what His father tells him to and that He not is greater than the One who sent him to earth to complete his work. Christ said it was His Father who gave him the power over life and death. Christ when referring to His Father, calls him “my Godâ€â€¦â€¦Christ’s words not mine.

John 12

49 I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50 And I know his commands lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say.â€

If the above verse means (for some) Christ, who is God, is equal to His Father then it seems that they have a very strange relationship of equality. Because I do not ask my equals for permission to talk, nor do they determine what I say or where I go….and I definitely would not take commands from them…or turn my authority back over to them. Perhaps equality means something different from what I knew.

 

[glorydaz]

Christ said it was His Father who gave him the power over life and death. Christ when referring to His Father, calls him “my Godâ€â€¦â€¦Christ’s words not mine.

If the above verse means (for some) Christ, who is God, is equal to His Father then it seems that they have a very strange relationship of equality. Because I do not ask my equals for permission to talk, nor do they determine what I say or where I go….and I definitely would not take commands from them…or turn my authority back over to them. Perhaps equality means something different from what I knew.

Here we see the Father calling the Son...God.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

In Isaiah Jesus is called the Everlasting Father.

When Jesus was in the flesh...he asked permission....because he was a man.
Man praises God and is commanded by God....when Jesus was a man, He spoke as a man.