The Five Points of Calvinism

[Malachi]

It has been noted at least by some that Five Point Calvinism is influencing the doctrines of evangelical and fundamentalist churches today. According to truthreallymatters.com it is one of the "The 10 Most Deadly Heresies Affecting American Churches in These Last Days".

The Southern Baptist Convention will experience division over this teaching whether they want it or not. Many of their pastors have succumbed to it:

Nearly 35 years after conservatives launched a takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention, a new divide is emerging — this time over the teachings of 16th-century Reformer John Calvin — that threatens to upend the nation’s largest Protestant denomination.
When Southern Baptist delegates gather for their annual meeting Tuesday and Wednesday in Houston, they’ll be presented with a report, “Truth, Trust and Testimony in a Time of Tension,” that focuses on the growing popularity of Calvinism among Southern Baptist pastors and seminaries.
At stake are fundamental beliefs on who can be “saved,” the need for evangelism and whether Baptists will retread familiar battlefields on the proper roles of men and women.
Calvinism, which traditionally is the domain of Reformed churches like Presbyterians, differs from traditional Baptist theology in key aspects, particularly on the question of salvation. The report concludes that those aspects, while important, should not divide Baptists.

Do you know what this teaching is and how it can be refuted from Scripture? According to truthreallymatters.com:

One of the distinguishing marks of a follower of Jesus Christ is a love for the truth. The believer’s testimony should be (Psalm 119:128): “Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.” The Lord Jesus called Himself “the truth” (John 14:6) and the apostle whom He loved most dearly proclaimed (3 John 4), “I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.”
The new believer must be diligent to add to faith, virtue, and to virtue, knowledge (etc., 2 Peter 1:5-10) to insure that he doesn’t fall from service. I believe it is far more profitable for a Christian to know a very few true things than to know much, with errors mixed in. The most deadly heresies afflicting American churches today are listed below, along with a very brief assessment of the damage done by each to the saving Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Kathi]

"The 10 Most Deadly Heresies Affecting American Churches in These Last Days".

I believe that.

 

[Butch5]

It has been noted at least by some that Five Point Calvinism is influencing the doctrines of evangelical and fundamentalist churches today. According to truthreallymatters.com it is one of the "The 10 Most Deadly Heresies Affecting American Churches in These Last Days".

The Southern Baptist Convention will experience division over this teaching whether they want it or not. Many of their pastors have succumbed to it:


Do you know what this teaching is and how it can be refuted from Scripture? According to truthreallymatters.com:

I'm familiar with Calvinism because I was being taught if for a few years.

 

[Malachi]

I'm familiar with Calvinism because I was being taught if for a few years.

Butch5,
It would seem that you were able to avoid going along with that teaching. How did you manage that? The answer might help others.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,
It would seem that you were able to avoid going along with that teaching. How did you manage that? The answer might help others.

I had been taught Southern Baptist doctrine and then later was being taught Reformation doctrine as a Presbyterian church. There were some things that I questioned but what really made me reject Calvinism was the Scriptures. I had gotten an ipod and put the Bible on it. I work construction and had a long drive to and from work so I could listen to the Scriptures for hours. As I listened to the NT over and over I began to here things that didn't line up with what the Presbyterian church was teaching. When I questioned the pastors they would give me evasive answers like, 'some things are hard to understand' or 'some things are a mystery'. I could accept that in a limited sense, however, when it got to be passage after passage that disagreed with their theology and they couldn't explain these passages I knew someone was wrong. They were teaching doctrines that were the opposite of what I'd learned from the Southern Baptist Church. If the Scriptures are without error then one or both of these churches were wrong. It was at that point that I began a search for the truth that is still going today. I put everything I believed on the table and compared every doctrine to the Scriptures. If they agreed with the Scriptures I kept them, if they didn't I got rid of them. Now I odn't hold tightly to doctrines unless they are soundly grounded in Scripture.

I was helped by some websites and by going back to the beginning. I looked at the writings of the earliest Christians to see what was taught in the very beginning of the Christian faith. I looked at what they believed, the arguments they made for their beliefs, and compared that to the Scriptures. Where they agree I believe the are correct, in the few places they may be in error I reject. However, form what I've seen they were pretty much on the Mark. Some of these men were actually taught by the apostles so they are not telling us what they think the Scriptures mean, they are telling us what the apostles taught them.

Once I realized Calvinism wasn't what the Scriptures teach I went on mission to rid the world of Calvinism, however, I've since realized that one person isn't going to do that. I spent quite a bit of time debating Calvinists so I know their doctrines, their arguments, and the fallacies they use to argue them. What I find dangerous that it seems to me that Calvinism attracts the well educated. The arguments can be tricky if one is not well versed in the Scriptures. I wouldn't suggest engaging Calvinists in debates unless one is grounded in the Scriptures. The Calvinists arguments can "seems" very convincing and one must be one guard to keep the debate on track.

If there are any specific questions that I can answer just let me know.

 

[Malachi]

If there are any specific questions that I can answer just let me know.

Butch5, thanks for that very enlightening and helpful post. We can talk about this in more detail and see which other Scriptures you can bring to bear on the subject. Let's take each point and discuss it. I call them the dominoes of Calvinism.

“In a domino show, when the first tile is toppled, it topples the second, which topples the third, etc., resulting in all of the tiles falling.” There are five points of Calvinism (T.U.L.I.P.) pertaining to salvation, of which only one is valid, but improperly presented. The rest are false, and at least two flatly contradict the Bible. If any one of them is shown to be false, then all of them will topple like dominoes. This summary will show that the five points of Calvinism are “the doctrines of men” and not “the doctrine of God” (Tit 2:1). They all topple when one “rightly divides the word of Truth” (2 Tim 2:15).

1. Total Depravity (Source:http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm)
‘What Presbyterians really mean by terms such as "Original Sin," "Total Depravity," and "Inability of the Will" is defined by our Confession of Faith, Chapter 10, Section 3: "Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."’

‘Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23). (From Calvinist Corner)’

So the first thing Calvinism does is create a straw man. No one who preaches the true Gospel asserts that any sinner can “will any spiritual good accompanying salvation” or that he can “by his own strength” convert himself or “prepare himself thereto”. No one claims that anyone can be born again by “by our own will”. The whole point though is to claim that God has predestined some to salvation, therefore they are “granted” the ability to believe and “granted” faith at the same time.

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that the Gospel “is the power of God unto salvation” (Rom 1:16). What this means is when the true Gospel is preached, sinners are convicted of their sins and convinced of the truth of the Gospel (Jn 16:7-11; Rom 10:8-15). Faith is generated by the Word of God -- the Gospel (Rom 10:17) and the New Birth is caused by the Word of God also (1 Pet 1:23; Jas 1:18). So, in essence, it is the preaching of the Gospel that generates faith (Mk 16:15,16).

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, thanks for that very enlightening and helpful post. We can talk about this in more detail and see which other Scriptures you can bring to bear on the subject. Let's take each point and discuss it. I call them the dominoes of Calvinism.

“In a domino show, when the first tile is toppled, it topples the second, which topples the third, etc., resulting in all of the tiles falling.” There are five points of Calvinism (T.U.L.I.P.) pertaining to salvation, of which only one is valid, but improperly presented. The rest are false, and at least two flatly contradict the Bible. If any one of them is shown to be false, then all of them will topple like dominoes. This summary will show that the five points of Calvinism are “the doctrines of men” and not “the doctrine of God” (Tit 2:1). They all topple when one “rightly divides the word of Truth” (2 Tim 2:15).

1. Total Depravity (Source:http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm)
‘What Presbyterians really mean by terms such as "Original Sin," "Total Depravity," and "Inability of the Will" is defined by our Confession of Faith, Chapter 10, Section 3: "Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."’

‘Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23). (From Calvinist Corner)’

So the first thing Calvinism does is create a straw man. No one who preaches the true Gospel asserts that any sinner can “will any spiritual good accompanying salvation” or that he can “by his own strength” convert himself or “prepare himself thereto”. No one claims that anyone can be born again by “by our own will”. The whole point though is to claim that God has predestined some to salvation, therefore they are “granted” the ability to believe and “granted” faith at the same time.

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that the Gospel “is the power of God unto salvation” (Rom 1:16). What this means is when the true Gospel is preached, sinners are convicted of their sins and convinced of the truth of the Gospel (Jn 16:7-11; Rom 10:8-15). Faith is generated by the Word of God -- the Gospel (Rom 10:17) and the New Birth is caused by the Word of God also (1 Pet 1:23; Jas 1:18). So, in essence, it is the preaching of the Gospel that generates faith (Mk 16:15,16).

Yep, If you knock down the first domino they rest fall too. Total Depravity is the fist one which as you posted above speaks of man's inability of himself. However, we learn from Scripture that no man is on his own. John said,

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:6-9 KJV)

Light is used as a metaphor and the apostle says that Christ gives understanding to everyone coming into the world. So, the argument is moot.

 

[Deborah13]

"In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I don't think the statement above agrees with the verses posted.

 

[Malachi]

Yep, If you knock down the first domino they rest fall too. Total Depravity is the fist one which as you posted above speaks of man's inability of himself. However, we learn from Scripture that no man is on his own. John said,

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:6-9 KJV)

Light is used as a metaphor and the apostle says that Christ gives understanding to everyone coming into the world. So, the argument is moot.

That's an excellent passage to refute so-called "total depravity" (as is the passage quoted by Deborah) and ties is quite well with Rom 2:10-16, which shows that all human beings have a conscience, with the Law written within that conscience:
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Butch5]

That's an excellent passage to refute so-called "total depravity" (as is the passage quoted by Deborah) and ties is quite well with Rom 2:10-16, which shows that all human beings have a conscience, with the Law written within that conscience:
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

There are quite a few passages that refute that doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

"In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I don't think the statement above agrees with the verses posted.

I agree, those doctrines just don't line up with Scripture

 

[Kathi]

Nope,I do not support Calvinism.

 

[WIP]

There are quite a few passages that refute that doctrine.

Where? This is the apologetics forum. Provide scriptural support in defense of these views!

 

[Butch5]

Where? This is the apologetics forum. Provide scriptural support in defense of these views!

Three of them have already been posted, but I can supply more.

KJV Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. (Gen 7:1 KJV)

6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. (Psa 1:6 KJV)

A man can't be righteous if he is totally depraved.

 

[Obadiah]

Three of them have already been posted, but I can supply more.

KJV Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. (Gen 7:1 KJV)

6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. (Psa 1:6 KJV)

A man can't be righteous if he is totally depraved.

Thank you Butch5. The new guidelines require that if you make a statement that essentially says "Scripture says..." then you have to quote or at least reference the chapter and verse of the scripture that actually says that. You can no longer just assume that other members will know which scripture you are referring to or leave the burden on them to ask you which ones you are referring to.

 

[Deborah13]

These definitions were helpful to my understanding and hopefully to better posting skills.

Christian Theology - "Christian theology is the study of Christian belief and practice. This is based primarily upon the texts of the Old Testament and the New Testament as well as the historic traditions of Christians. Christian theologians use biblical exegesis, rational analysis and argument."
https://www.google.com/search?q=theology&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Christian Apologetics - "The task of developing and sharing arguments for the truth and rationality of Christianity and the falsehood and irrationality of alternatives with the aim of strengthening the faith of believers and provoking non-believers to consider Christ"
http://www.bethinking.org/apologetics/an-introduction-to-christian-apologetics

 

[Primrose]

Hello, I studied this subject in the past.
There are many scriptures that show that God has given us a will, like this example :
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Only there is also the consideration that God is Sovereign and that's why we pray for changes, providing they are aligned to God's will.

 

[JLB]

That's an excellent passage to refute so-called "total depravity" (as is the passage quoted by Deborah) and ties is quite well with Rom 2:10-16, which shows that all human beings have a conscience, with the Law written within that conscience:
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:14-16

...who show the work of the law written in their hearts,

This is referring to born again people who are a part of the New Covenant.

The law written on our heart is exclusive to those in the New Covenant.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jeremiah 31:31-33

Gentiles absolutely did not have this work of God, whereby His law was written on their heart, before the New Covenant was established by Jesus Christ on the cross.

It was years later before the first Gentile, Cornelius, even came in.

No Gentile was in the New Covenant, and had the law of God written on their heart, BEFORE the cross.

The law of God written on our heart, and put in our mind is EXCLUSIVE to the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[jBird]

It is true that the SBC is dealing with different flavours of theology including a theology that seeks to be more inclusive but Calvinism is only one of the issues. The modern conservative Protestant church is seeking to anchor itself in the biblical faith using historic forms of confession, which include the Reformed confessions and return to the roots of the SBC. If you look at the history of the Southern Baptist Seminary all the Profs had to agree with Calvinism (I dislike the term Calvinism because "Calvinism" is so much more than five points. The parameters of the discussion have been limited due to the Remonstrance or Arminian 5 points contra Reformed faith and doctrine) before they could teach. The SBC's historic articles contained Calvinism. This is simply unavoidable.

So the first thing Calvinism does is create a straw man.

No one who preaches the true Gospel asserts that any sinner can “will any spiritual good accompanying salvation” or that he can “by his own strength” convert himself or “prepare himself thereto”. No one claims that anyone can be born again by “by our own will”.

Of course no one admits that off the bat that they are ultimately responsible for their salvation or, working the Gospel like a Divine AmWay program, but it's inherent in the non-Calvinist position. What causes one to differ? Grace. The person who holds to the idea of total libertarian free will has to concede it was their choice that brought them into a relationship with God. It was due to their ability to see the offer of the Gospel that seprates them from others who do not. This runs runs contrary to Gospel principles, "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." How is one able to even comprihend and believe if, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

The whole point though is to claim that God has predestined some to salvation, therefore they are “granted” the ability to believe and “granted” faith at the same time.

Exactly. Just like Lydia in Acts whose heart was opened before she could believe, "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that the Gospel “is the power of God unto salvation” (Rom 1:16).[What this means is when the true Gospel is preached, sinners are convicted of their sins and convinced of the truth of the Gospel (Jn 16:7-11; Rom 10:8-15). Faith is generated by the Word of God -- the Gospel (Rom 10:17) and the New Birth is caused by the Word of God also (1 Pet 1:23; Jas 1:18). So, in essence, it is the preaching of the Gospel that generates faith (Mk 16:15,16).

You are begging the question by inserting into the passages cited total libertarian free will. The passage from Romans 1 reads "to every one that believeth." You are assuming that "every one that believeth" means everyone has the ability to believe. This is the Divine AmWay program where God sets up a program for salvation and all you have to do is work it. Again, what causes one to differ? The ability to hear the Gospel or the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration? Who is Christ speaking to in John 16 and how would His listeners of understood Him? Christ is talking about general conviction and not conviction that leads to godly repentance and sorrow.

Romans 10 reads, " whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." This begs the question. You are assuming total liberation free will but not proving it with this verse. Who are the "whosoever?" Verse 17 of the same chapter is followed by "I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Let's stop here for just a second and examine the passage. The idea of "world" in John 16 was assumed by the poster to mean everybody, everywhere, all the time. World = every single person, ever. Without exception. Is that consistent with what Paul is saying here in Romans? Did everybody, everywhere and at all times hear the Gospel? If we accept this understanding of the word "world" yes, everyone has heard the Gospel. But we know not everyone has heard the Gospel. The Greek word "world" has seven meanings. I will not go into them here but please look them up.

1 Peter 1.23 was used above. The same chapter also reads, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Does God learn the future or is God omnipotent (all knowing)? We know God is all knowing and therefore does not learn of some future decision a creature makes in time. God's knowledge is not based on what He learns by looking through the corridor of time. Before we get to verse 23 we find, "foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God..." There we have it. We believe because we were foreordained before the foundation of the world to do so and "by him do believe in God..." or "through him are believers." We are not believers on our own but by the Fathers ordination and in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Can't argue with James who wrote, "Of (not my will but) his own will begat he us with the word of truth"

So, in essence, it is the preaching of the Gospel that generates faith

(Mk 16:15,16).

Kind of but I'd like to clarify. God uses means, or God deals with mankind often through intermediaries. (Assyrians/Babylonians to punish Israel, etc.) The preaching of the Gospel is how God chooses to call His people. To use, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" as a proof text display a misunderstanding of how God works in the world.

Those were just a few misunderstands that jumped out at me and I wanted to clarify the Reformed position.

Thank you.

jBird

 

[jBird]

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:14-16

...who show the work of the law written in their hearts,

This is referring to born again people who are a part of the New Covenant.

The law written on our heart is exclusive to those in the New Covenant.

That's a little bit of a mess. Paul is saying that even Gentiles who were not given the Mosaic covenant of works know right from wrong and will be judged accordingly. He goes on to say that the real Jew is not after the flesh like the Dispensationalist likes to believe but due to the New Covenant you mentioned from Jer. 31. This also proves that Israel is not after the flesh, just look who the covenant is made with and who receives this covenant in the New Testament. The Mosaic covenant is a republication of the covenant made with Adam ("do and live"), of which everyone is made a partaker of through our federal head Adam (Romans 5) and we are called to obey this covenant of works perfectly to be saved. No one can keep this covenant, which is why Christ came to establish the new covenant of grace in His blood (Matt. 26.28). It's all pretty simple once you understand how God deals with His people.

Truly,

jBird