The Land Promises to Israel were Completed Long, Long Ago.

[theWind]

There will already be Israelites occupying the land given them when Jesus returns.
Where else would expect to find Israelites when Christ returns , Japan ?
The "Given back" premise of this thread is based in a fundamental lack of biblical understanding.
The major change that will take place the day of Christ's return is HOW they will occupy the land.
Up until then they will be under constant threat of violence & death, but upon His return they will occupy the land in peace & safety.
We are talking about Israelites that are in Christ at this point by the way .

Zec 3:9
................... I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

There's nothing in the Bible that gives any indication that Palestine has any Biblical significance today.

Nothing in any of the major end times passages or anywhere else that specifies that land.

Those verses have nothing to do with Israelites returning to Palestine. Nowhere in that entire chapter is there any contextual indication that it is speaking of that; the whole chapter is a vision about Joshua related by the Prophet Zechariah. Verse 8 refers to Jesus having not even been brought forth yet.

 

[Consecrated Life]

There's nothing in the Bible that gives any indication that Palestine has any Biblical significance today.

Nothing in any of the major end times passages or anywhere else that specifies that land.

What Land is being spoken of here in future prophecy ?


Zec 3:9................... I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

 

[theWind]

What Land is being spoken of here in future prophecy ?


Zec 3:9................... I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Respectfully, that's what you need to figure out before using it as a proof text to support the idea that it is speaking of Palestine.

It is a vision that is being related by Zechariah. It could be speaking of anywhere, or it could be speaking of a people/nation, etc.

Nowhere, in that chapter or the others before and after, does it speak of the Promised Land or anything of the like.

It was spoken well over 500 years before Christ came so it's not likely that it was speaking of the events around 1300 B.C. concerning the Promised Land that was given and then taken away. God had already destroyed the Israelites off of that land about 800 years prior.

I'm just analytically reasoning with you on this. If you can find something in Zechariah there that indicates it is speaking of Palestine, I'm happy to consider it. I just don't see it anywhere.

 

[Charlie24]

Respectfully, that's what you need to figure out before using it as a proof text to support the idea that it is speaking of Palestine.

It is a vision that is being related by Zechariah. It could be speaking of anywhere, or it could be speaking of a people/nation, etc.

Nowhere, in that chapter or the others before and after, does it speak of the Promised Land or anything of the like.

It was spoken well over 500 years before Christ came so it's not likely that it was speaking of the events around 1300 B.C. concerning the Promised Land that was given and then taken away. God had already destroyed the Israelites off of that land about 800 years prior.

I'm just analytically reasoning with you on this. If you can find something in Zechariah there that indicates it is speaking of Palestine, I'm happy to consider it. I just don't see it anywhere.

Zechariah give us a shocking preview of what is happening with Israel at His Second Coming! He also tells us what will happen immediately following the Second Coming of Christ, it includes what will take place throughout the land of Israel.

He tells us that Israel will be attacked and 2/3 of Israel will die, and God will leave 1/3 alive.

Zech. 13:8-9
"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

He explains the battle of Armageddon when the anti-christ will attack Jerusalem, and there is this terrible lose of life. But the Lord will intervene and save them at His Coming.

Zech. 14:1-3
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

While Israel has lost hope and see that they are about to be completely wiped out, Zech. records what happens.

Zech. 12:9-10
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Israel will see Christ when He comes to destroy the anti-christ. They will finally know that Jesus of Nazareth was and is their Messiah. The mourning and bitterness are the sorrows of having rejected Him.

Throughout the land Israel will separate themselves according to the princely line of Christ to the priestly line of Christ to mourn over their Messiah. The princely line is the "house of David, and the "house of Nathan." The priestly line is the "house of Levi." The "families that remain" are the rest of Israel according to their tribes.

Zech. 12:11-14
"In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

Every Jew in Israel will feel guilty for crucifying their Messiah. This is when Paul said, "and all of Israel will be saved." Speaking of those who have survived the anti-christ.

 

[theWind]

Zechariah give us a shocking preview of what is happening with Israel at His Second Coming! He also tells us what will happen immediately following the Second Coming of Christ, it includes what will take place throughout the land of Israel.

He tells us that Israel will be attacked and 2/3 of Israel will die, and God will leave 1/3 alive.

Zech. 13:8-9
"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

He explains the battle of Armageddon when the anti-christ will attack Jerusalem, and there is this terrible lose of life. But the Lord will intervene and save them at His Coming.

Zech. 14:1-3
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

While Israel has lost hope and see that they are about to be completely wiped out, Zech. records what happens.

Zech. 12:9-10
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Israel will see Christ when He comes to destroy the anti-christ. They will finally know that Jesus of Nazareth was and is their Messiah. The mourning and bitterness are the sorrows of having rejected Him.

Throughout the land Israel will separate themselves according to the princely line of Christ to the priestly line of Christ to mourn over their Messiah. The princely line is the "house of David, and the "house of Nathan." The priestly line is the "house of Levi." The "families that remain" are the rest of Israel according to their tribes.

Zech. 12:11-14
"In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

Every Jew in Israel will feel guilty for crucifying their Messiah. This is when Paul said, "and all of Israel will be saved." Speaking of those who have survived the anti-christ.

Sorry, but none of that speaks of the Land of Israel.

The Land of Israel didn't exist under that name in Zechariah's time and there is nothing anywhere contextually surrounding those chapters that indicates it is speaking of a physical land anywhere. It is speaking of a people.

Help me understand what this has to do with the OP of this thread.

 

[Charlie24]

Sorry, but none of that speaks of the Land of Israel.

The Land of Israel didn't exist under that name in Zechariah's time and there is nothing anywhere contextually surrounding those chapters that indicates it is speaking of a physical land anywhere. It is speaking of a people.

Help me understand what this has to do with the OP of this thread.

I have now explained all that will happen to Israel to bring them to Christ.

Jeremiah gives us the end result of the land promise through Abraham.

Jer. 23:5-8
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."

The land promise is to Israel, in the end it will be theirs, and they will dwell in it.

You can believe it or not, matters little to me!

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Sorry, but none of that speaks of the Land of Israel.

The Land of Israel didn't exist under that name in Zechariah's time and there is nothing anywhere contextually surrounding those chapters that indicates it is speaking of a physical land anywhere. It is speaking of a people.

Help me understand what this has to do with the OP of this thread.

If I'm not mistaken ,Jerusalem is a physical place.
You do go out of your way trying to prove scripture wrong.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Zechariah give us a shocking preview of what is happening with Israel at His Second Coming! He also tells us what will happen immediately following the Second Coming of Christ, it includes what will take place throughout the land of Israel.

He tells us that Israel will be attacked and 2/3 of Israel will die, and God will leave 1/3 alive.

Zech. 13:8-9
"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

He explains the battle of Armageddon when the anti-christ will attack Jerusalem, and there is this terrible lose of life. But the Lord will intervene and save them at His Coming.

Zech. 14:1-3
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

While Israel has lost hope and see that they are about to be completely wiped out, Zech. records what happens.

Zech. 12:9-10
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Israel will see Christ when He comes to destroy the anti-christ. They will finally know that Jesus of Nazareth was and is their Messiah. The mourning and bitterness are the sorrows of having rejected Him.

Throughout the land Israel will separate themselves according to the princely line of Christ to the priestly line of Christ to mourn over their Messiah. The princely line is the "house of David, and the "house of Nathan." The priestly line is the "house of Levi." The "families that remain" are the rest of Israel according to their tribes.

Zech. 12:11-14
"In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

Every Jew in Israel will feel guilty for crucifying their Messiah. This is when Paul said, "and all of Israel will be saved." Speaking of those who have survived the anti-christ.

A good amount of evidence you have given that the land in and around Jerusalem shall be dwelt in after the Lord has come.
There's an old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
You have just led the wind to a lake.

 

[Consecrated Life]

What Land is being spoken of here in future prophecy ?


Zec 3:9................... I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Respectfully, that's what you need to figure out before using it as a proof text to support the idea that it is speaking of Palestine.

It is a vision that is being related by Zechariah. It could be speaking of anywhere, or it could be speaking of a people/nation, etc.

Nowhere, in that chapter or the others before and after, does it speak of the Promised Land or anything of the like.
. If you can find something in Zechariah there that indicates it is speaking of Palestine, I'm happy to consider it. I just don't see it anywhere.

Zec 1:17
Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

You should better learn the locale specifically featured by God in Zec.
No Christain is surprised by God making a connection to His chosen people and the Land in connection .
Amazing that you are surprised by God making a connection that is as common as night following day between the covers of the bible.

 

[theWind]

I have now explained all that will happen to Israel to bring them to Christ.

Jeremiah gives us the end result of the land promise through Abraham.

Jer. 23:5-8
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."

The land promise is to Israel, in the end it will be theirs, and they will dwell in it.

You can believe it or not, matters little to me!

Thanks. Having a hard time keeping track of which threads I'm responding to today.

About 20 notifications that I'm replying to right now for multiple threads.

No excuse, my bad.

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks. Having a hard time keeping track of which threads I'm responding to today.

About 20 notifications that I'm replying to right now for multiple threads.

No excuse, my bad.

Thanks. Having a hard time keeping track of which threads I'm responding to today.

About 20 notifications that I'm replying to right now for multiple threads.

No excuse, my bad.

The land promise is cut and dry for me. You may not see it that way, and that's ok.

It has nothing to do with whether a person goes to hell or heaven.

The issues of hell or heaven are much more concerning to me.

 

[theWind]

The land promise is cut and dry for me. You may not see it that way, and that's ok.

It has nothing to do with whether a person goes to hell or heaven.

The issues of hell or heaven are much more concerning to me.

The problem with the teaching is that it is an important component to Pre-Mil doctrine which is an unbiblical doctrine and leads people astray.

Pre-Mil supports Pre-Trib rapture which causes well-meaning Christians to be off their guard about Christ's return and how we will all be dealt with once we die, or are raised.

Pre-Mil is a very destructive doctrine to one's Faith as it adds undue stress to the mind of the Christian who is striving to get through this life in accordance with what they believe God expects of them. To consider, under great stress, that as soon as Christ returns, we must endure another 1,000 years here and then be tested once again by the devil is devastating to those who are trying to understand God and His Ways.

It is nonsense and it is a very problematic false doctrine for Christians.

All the Land Promises were fulfilled long ago in the book of Joshua. Therefore, when people use that as a stated reason for why there must be a Millennium reign of Christ upon this earth after He returns, they are teaching unsound doctrine that disrupts Truth and understanding of God's Word.

 

[Charlie24]

The problem with the teaching is that it is an important component to Pre-Mil doctrine which is an unbiblical doctrine and leads people astray.

Pre-Mil supports Pre-Trib rapture which causes well-meaning Christians to be off their guard about Christ's return and how we will all be dealt with once we die, or are raised.

Pre-Mil is a very destructive doctrine to one's Faith as it adds undue stress to the mind of the Christian who is striving to get through this life in accordance with what they believe God expects of them. To consider, under great stress, that as soon as Christ returns, we must endure another 1,000 years here and then be tested once again by the devil is devastating to those who are trying to understand God and His Ways.

It is nonsense and it is a very problematic false doctrine for Christians.

All the Land Promises were fulfilled long ago in the book of Joshua. Therefore, when people use that as a stated reason for why there must be a Millennium reign of Christ upon this earth after He returns, they are teaching unsound doctrine that disrupts Truth and understanding of God's Word.

Well, I'll let you in on a little secret, all of Matt. 24 is referring to only Israel.

It is Israel who does not believe in Christ, not the Church. His coming will take Israel by surprise, as a thief in the night.

Paul said that they are in darkness, he's speaking of Israel, as he always is speaking of Israel. But he tells the Church, you are not in darkness that it will take you by surprise.

We the Church know that Christ will destroy the anti-christ at His Second Coming, but Israel doesn't know and would not believe it anyway.

It's not the Second Coming that the Church is waiting for, it's the resurrection before His coming that we need to be prepared for. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye this will take place when Christ comes for His Church.

This is the principle of the parable of the 10 virgins. Unlike Israel, we the Church know when the Second Coming will take place and what happens, but we the Church have no idea the moment He comes for us. There will be no signs when He comes for us, as the signs of the Second Coming.

Christ commanded His Church to watch and be ready, for you know not the hour the Bridegroom comes. He is the Bridegroom of the Church and He is speaking only to His Church. "Watch and be ready." The watch for the Church is not in signs of His coming as for Israel, watch your faith, be in the faith.

As Pau said, " I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:" That is what we the Church are to guard, and be ready with.

 

[theWind]

Well, I'll let you in on a little secret, all of Matt. 24 is referring to only Israel.

It is Israel who does not believe in Christ, not the Church. His coming will take Israel by surprise, as a thief in the night.

Paul said that they are in darkness, he's speaking of Israel, as he always is speaking of Israel. But he tells the Church, you are not in darkness that it will take you by surprise.

We the Church know that Christ will destroy the anti-christ at His Second Coming, but Israel doesn't know and would not believe it anyway.

It's not the Second Coming that the Church is waiting for, it's the resurrection before His coming that we need to be prepared for. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye this will take place when Christ comes for His Church.

This is the principle of the parable of the 10 virgins. Unlike Israel, we the Church know when the Second Coming will take place and what happens, but we the Church have no idea the moment He comes for us. There will be no signs when He comes for us, as the signs of the Second Coming.

Christ commanded His Church to watch and be ready, for you know not the hour the Bridegroom comes. He is the Bridegroom of the Church and He is speaking only to His Church. "Watch and be ready." The watch for the Church is not in signs of His coming as for Israel, watch your faith, be in the faith.

As Pau said, " I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:" That is what we the Church are to guard, and be ready with.

Pre-Trib nonsense.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there will be a resurrection before Christ comes.

Good luck with all that.

 

[Charlie24]

Pre-Trib nonsense.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there will be a resurrection before Christ comes.

Good luck with all that.

There's no need to argue this! You're theory places the Church right in the middle of the Tribulation.

Paul plainly said to the church that God has not called the Church to wrath, but you guys insist the Church goes through that wrath. The Great Tribulation is the pure wrath of God on unbelieving man.

You don't even believe Christ when He said this to the Church,

Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Again the Church escapes the wrath of God.

 

[theWind]

There's no need to argue this! You're theory places the Church right in the middle of the Tribulation.

Nope.

Paul plainly said to the church that God has not called the Church to wrath, but you guys insist the Church goes through that wrath.

Did God save Noah from the flood, or through it?

The Great Tribulation is the pure wrath of God on unbelieving man.

You don't even believe Christ when He said this to the Church,

Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Again the Church escapes the wrath of God.

Yep.

It escapes the Wrath of God because the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation are not the same thing. Sorry you've been so misled.

The Church goes through the GT and is taken up before the Wrath of God that completely destroys the earth and all wickedness that is left behind when Christ gathers His saints.

Show me your one, or two, verses that you believe prove a Pre-Trib rapture and I'll show you ten that show it to be false doctrine. The fact that anybody still believes in Pre-Trib rapture today is a testament to the woeful lack of knowledge of the Scriptures among professed Christians today.

And the Tribulation has already begun - like it or not. Sorry you missed the bus.

The Land Promises to Israel were fulfilled long, long ago. No need for a Millennium after 2nd Advent and there will not be one.

 

[Charlie24]

Nope.

Did God save Noah from the flood, or through it?

Yep.

It escapes the Wrath of God because the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation are not the same thing. Sorry you've been so misled.

The Church goes through the GT and is taken up before the Wrath of God that completely destroys the earth and all wickedness that is left behind when Christ gathers His saints.

Show me your one, or two, verses that you believe prove a Pre-Trib rapture and I'll show you ten that show it to be false doctrine. The fact that anybody still believes in Pre-Trib rapture today is a testament to the woeful lack of knowledge of the Scriptures among professed Christians today.

And the Tribulation has already begun - like it or not. Sorry you missed the bus.

The Land Promises to Israel were fulfilled long, long ago. No need for a Millennium after 2nd Advent and there will not be one.

Ok, we disagree! Not going to continue to argue.

 

[theWind]

Ok, we disagree! Not going to continue to argue.

I've asked some very basic questions to which you are refusing to answer.

Did God take Noah and His family up into heaven before He sent the Flood upon the whole earth?

Or did He save him through the experience of it by having him build an Ark?

We, too, are to build our Arks today by constructing them daily in our reading and studying of The Word and doing good works in faith and building our faith, having plenty of oil for our lamps, etc.

Those who do that will be saved through the Tribulation period just as Noah was saved through the Flood.

Do you not have any verses from Scripture that convince you of a Pre-Trib rapture? Why then do you embrace such a doctrine?

There's nothing wrong with discussing the Bible on Christian Discussion forums. That's the whole point of these sites.

 

[Charlie24]

I've asked some very basic questions to which you are refusing to answer.

Did God take Noah and His family up into heaven before He sent the Flood upon the whole earth?

Or did He save him through the experience of it by having him build an Ark?

We, too, are to build our Arks today by constructing them daily in our reading and studying of The Word and doing good works in faith and building our faith, having plenty of oil for our lamps, etc.

Those who do that will be saved through the Tribulation period just as Noah was saved through the Flood.

Do you not have any verses from Scripture that convince you of a Pre-Trib rapture? Why then do you embrace such a doctrine?

There's nothing wrong with discussing the Bible on Christian Discussion forums. That's the whole point of these sites.

I don't know, you will have to ask someone else.

 

[theWind]

Are we done with this thread?

Do I win?