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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The New Testament Doctrine of Grace
- Thread starter Vince
- Start date
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
When someone has a lot of grace, that person accomplishes great things for God. People can see the results of that grace in a person. If you've accepted Christ as Savior but have an unfruitful life, part of the problem is that you lack grace.
Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
When someone has a lot of grace, that person accomplishes great things for God. People can see the results of that grace in a person. If you've accepted Christ as Savior but have an unfruitful life, part of the problem is that you lack grace.
It's good to know as we seek to know God, He is faithful to increase not only our faith, but His grace. Grace can be multiplied through the knowledge of God and our Lord Jesus...Vince said:
We can grow in grace through reading the Word and prayer...2 Peter 1: 2-4 said:
2 Peter 3:17-18 said:
Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
It is possible for a Christian to "fall back" ("fail" in the KJV) of the grace of God. Translated "fall short" here in the New KJV, the word refers to someone who had attained that grace, and had then fallen back from it.
We're to follow peace and holiness, in order to make sure that this doesn't happen to us. We're to be looking carefully to make sure that it isn't happening to anyone around us. Why? Because if a root of bitterness does spring up in us, it causes trouble in us and others, defiling many people.
It is possible for a Christian to "fall back" ("fail" in the KJV) of the grace of God. Translated "fall short" here in the New KJV, the word refers to someone who had attained that grace, and had then fallen back from it.
We're to follow peace and holiness, in order to make sure that this doesn't happen to us. We're to be looking carefully to make sure that it isn't happening to anyone around us. Why? Because if a root of bitterness does spring up in us, it causes trouble in us and others, defiling many people.
Okay, we've seen that grace gives us the ability to succeed in God's work, and that the lack of grace leaves us open to bitterness and trouble. So how do you get more grace?
James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: " God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."
Okay, how do you get humble?
James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: " God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."
Okay, how do you get humble?
Okay, we have seen that grace gives us the ability to serve God successfully, and that God gives grace to the humble. So how do you get humble?
James 4:6-7 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: " God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." Therefore submit to God.
James 4:6-7 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: " God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." Therefore submit to God.
Former Saul
Member
I always thought that grace was God's kindness in forgiving us. You know, that He'll always take us back, no matter who we are or how many times we fall away.
This verse also suggests that the grace of Jesus allows everyone to be equal in salvation.
Vince,Vince said:
This is the same message of God through Moses in Deuteronomy 29:18,19. This message is a warning against loving this world and serving the Lord, the desire for peace and safety, and plenty for years to come, the desire to control the bag, the desire to make a fair shew in the flesh but hold back part of the price of the sacrifice.
David was led to see this half-way service as returning to our own vomit and our table of vomit (making of many books with our name on them) being a trap and a snare. Isaiah saw this lack of maturity in grace as defeating a lion and a bear then going into your own house (where Jesus said not to go) and leaning on a wall (law) being bitten by an adder.
Paul testified thusly concerning grace after being given peace with God through faith.
Rom 4:25-5:5
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 5
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. KJV
This is a full line of christian experience from repentance at the death of Jesus our Lord for our offenses, resurrection and justification, grace (sanctification) and the trials and tribulations in service and the patient waiting in hope for the resurrection of the body through the gift of the holy Spirit.
This witness takes in and is inclusive of the testimonies of James, Peter and John and their testimony of a two-fold aspect of the love of God in Jesus our Lord, the elementary and the mature stages, the milk and the meat, living and dying continually in the Lord Jesus.
Joe
Formersaul, you are correct in believing that God's grace refers to His kindness in forgiving us. The Greek word "grace" refers to kindliness, graciousness, and similar attitudes. It is through kindness that God saves us and equips us to serve Him.
Joe, what you're saying is also correct.
Joe, what you're saying is also correct.
Vince, Glorydaz,
I believe very, very, very much in God's Grace, particularly through our Lord Jesus Christ unto Salvation. I see it as unmerited favor from God, since we ALL have been concluded under sin like Apostle Paul says. Because we can see God's Grace and The Holy Spirit in operation even among those who found favor in Old Testament times, the subject of His Grace is not just a New Testament idea. I see Christ in every Book of God's Word, starting with Genesis 3.
In the last days we have even been given the ability by The Holy Spirit to go back into the Old Testament Books and see many things which God's prophets were given to write, but wondered about in their day and didn't understand. From God's creation to the still future new heavens and a new earth timing, it was all first written in the Old Testament Books. It was only until Christ came and died on the cross that righteousness without the law became manifest, fulfilling the Grace that was prophesied of old to come.
Still, some separate His Grace into a type of 'New Testament only' teaching, even when Paul referred back to the OT prophets of the Grace which our Lord Jesus fulfilled on the cross. I believe God's Plan of Salvation through His Son has been a progressing Plan, which some divide into separate periods or dispensations. I'm not a Dispensationalist while I say that, because Dispensationalism goes farther, and tries to separate The Gospel into two factions, one for Israel and another for Gentiles, i.e., the false idea that the "gospel of the kingdom" is for Israel, while the "gospel of grace" is for Gentiles. The OT prophets made no such separations like that, and nor did our Lord Jesus, Paul or the other Apostles of Christ. That's why the subject of God's Grace should always include a whole Bible view, and not just of a time after Christ's death on the cross to fulfill it. Just because some of Israel didn't believe did not make God's Grace through His Son of none effect for all others who have believed, including many of Israel.
I believe very, very, very much in God's Grace, particularly through our Lord Jesus Christ unto Salvation. I see it as unmerited favor from God, since we ALL have been concluded under sin like Apostle Paul says. Because we can see God's Grace and The Holy Spirit in operation even among those who found favor in Old Testament times, the subject of His Grace is not just a New Testament idea. I see Christ in every Book of God's Word, starting with Genesis 3.
In the last days we have even been given the ability by The Holy Spirit to go back into the Old Testament Books and see many things which God's prophets were given to write, but wondered about in their day and didn't understand. From God's creation to the still future new heavens and a new earth timing, it was all first written in the Old Testament Books. It was only until Christ came and died on the cross that righteousness without the law became manifest, fulfilling the Grace that was prophesied of old to come.
Still, some separate His Grace into a type of 'New Testament only' teaching, even when Paul referred back to the OT prophets of the Grace which our Lord Jesus fulfilled on the cross. I believe God's Plan of Salvation through His Son has been a progressing Plan, which some divide into separate periods or dispensations. I'm not a Dispensationalist while I say that, because Dispensationalism goes farther, and tries to separate The Gospel into two factions, one for Israel and another for Gentiles, i.e., the false idea that the "gospel of the kingdom" is for Israel, while the "gospel of grace" is for Gentiles. The OT prophets made no such separations like that, and nor did our Lord Jesus, Paul or the other Apostles of Christ. That's why the subject of God's Grace should always include a whole Bible view, and not just of a time after Christ's death on the cross to fulfill it. Just because some of Israel didn't believe did not make God's Grace through His Son of none effect for all others who have believed, including many of Israel.
No doubt God's grace has been manifest from the beginning of time.
Grace was given to the nation of Israel and to individuals...but it was poured out upon mankind through Jesus Christ. It was "the grace" that was sought and prophesied of old. Jesus's death, resurrection and the sending of the Holy Spirit brought grace upon grace.
Grace was given to the nation of Israel and to individuals...but it was poured out upon mankind through Jesus Christ. It was "the grace" that was sought and prophesied of old. Jesus's death, resurrection and the sending of the Holy Spirit brought grace upon grace.
1 Peter 1:10-12 said:
smaller
Member
Grace knocked Saul to the ground and blinded him and elected him by Divine Appointment and Revelatory understandings which same were NEVER heard in full as by Paul, prior to that appointment. All the while those who fell with Saul on that road heard EXACTLY zero WORDS.
And NO amount of freewill applied by Judas could have been used to alter or change the old testament writings of the events of Judas lifting up his heel against Jesus or Satan's entrance into him to perform those matters. That too was BY DIVINE APPOINTMENT. Jesus was NOT slain by a totally random gathering of the events and actions of freewill conjures with ad hoc free will committee members. Such notions are patent absurdity in the face of an overwhelming body of FORETOLD evidence which were not possible to change by any exertion of 'freewill.'
No, it was all PLANNED by God down to the LAST STROKE of the WHIP, each blow of the hammers upon the nails meticulously placed, and each and every THORN pressed into HIS PRECIOUS HEAD by that crown of same.
No amount of freewill would have changed these purposes or these appointments and no amount of freewill desires would have gained these appointments in any other way but by GODS WILL upon those so engaged, even JESUS.
And NO amount of freewill applied by Judas could have been used to alter or change the old testament writings of the events of Judas lifting up his heel against Jesus or Satan's entrance into him to perform those matters. That too was BY DIVINE APPOINTMENT. Jesus was NOT slain by a totally random gathering of the events and actions of freewill conjures with ad hoc free will committee members. Such notions are patent absurdity in the face of an overwhelming body of FORETOLD evidence which were not possible to change by any exertion of 'freewill.'
No, it was all PLANNED by God down to the LAST STROKE of the WHIP, each blow of the hammers upon the nails meticulously placed, and each and every THORN pressed into HIS PRECIOUS HEAD by that crown of same.
No amount of freewill would have changed these purposes or these appointments and no amount of freewill desires would have gained these appointments in any other way but by GODS WILL upon those so engaged, even JESUS.
Good to hear from you, Smaller. When God struck down Paul, He reminded Paul that he had been resisting God's goads for some time. But, where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. God wants everyone saved, including the chief of sinners. There is no Scriptural justification for saying what eventually happened to the men who were with Paul.
Yes, God did plan the Crucifixion, because He wants all men to be saved. But God did not force anyone to sin. There is no Scriptural teaching that every blow of the whip was ordained by God. Old Testament prophesies that Jesus would be betrayed by a friend for thirty pieces of silver could have been fulfilled in other ways. When Jesus witnessed to Pilate, Jesus was being honest, and if Pilate had turned to Christ, he would have been saved.
Yes, God did plan the Crucifixion, because He wants all men to be saved. But God did not force anyone to sin. There is no Scriptural teaching that every blow of the whip was ordained by God. Old Testament prophesies that Jesus would be betrayed by a friend for thirty pieces of silver could have been fulfilled in other ways. When Jesus witnessed to Pilate, Jesus was being honest, and if Pilate had turned to Christ, he would have been saved.
chestertonrules
Member
I don't think that follows.
Grace teaches us, it doesn't force us. Since it has appeared to all men, unless you believe in universal salvation, you must concede that grace in your life doesn't assure salvation.
Salvation is the result of cooperating with God's grace.
smaller
Member
Well, these are most interesting matters. God just doesn't seem to be able to 'get the job done' in the majority of cases from the 'freewill' perspective, but the adherents only have themselves to blame so it's Divinely Ironic...
No, God provably does not want MOST saved, at least in this present life and at least judging by the results. He CERTAINLY doesn't want everyone believing the SAME THING now either does He? Look at any christian message board and the arrays are FULL of OPINIONS, debates and arguments, by BELIEVERS no less. Back in Calvin's day or Arminius the methods of communications were SOOO slow. Today we bicker LIGHTNING fast and the more we bicker, the MORE we divide. This too is just part of Gods Plans.
Paul, the Apostle of Grace does a concise, almost personally surgical job in his dissections of these matters, showing for example that God Himself blinded the unbelievers of Israel in Romans 11:8, yet ends up saving them all anyway by Romans 11:25-32. I think that is kinda Divinely Sovereignly COOL as a matter of fact. Now go find a Calvinist that believes their version is THAT Sovereign. I haven't found one yet. Even harder, go find a freewiller than can read that section of text and see that God saves ENEMIES of the GOSPEL for the sakes of their fathers with absolutely nothing else involved than Gods desire to DO SO. You can put that section of text in front of MANY christian sects and they will simply GLOSS OVER and not be even able to read it, yet alone comprehend it. That too is OF GOD.
Paul is just really quite more interesting than either determinist or freewiller positions apply, but that is just me talking after 30 years of study on both sides of these ledgers. I have found that there can be and are many simultaneous truths in text that can be both fully in opposition yet simultaneously fully true and fully applicable and totally logical if given some decent thought measures.
Too many of these matters are just phony constructs to begin with, and easily proven so. But you get enough dedication, money and institution behind any particular constructs of 'men' and these things can run a long time just from social and 'tradition' pressures alone. My own family has Lutheran roots that run back quite a long time, many many generations, yet I doubt that any of them even were confronted with such matters as we discuss here and elsewhere.
They were just 'Lutherans' 'cause that's the way it was. The stuff we talk about on discussion boards is ONLY because we have personal interests and desires to do so. I don't even attribute that to my freewill 'cause I didn't give ONE LICK about this stuff prior to being born again. Now I can't stop even if I wanted to....
I'm not speculating as to their long term fates. But the fact is that Saul heard Jesus and they didn't as that much IS recorded for viewing. Were equal 'freewill' advantage being played, they'd have all heard it and ALL been allowed 'an equal freewill opportunity for decisions.' But of course that didn't happen.
Can you imagine how many 'freewillers' WOULD accept Jesus based on such an experience as Saul's? The 'odds' for making any particular 'freewill' agent to make a positive decision would go up astronomically eh? But alas...God CHOOSES not to DO SO even though HE COULD if He wanted to.
IF you understood that the entirety of those events were meticulously planned by God and thusly ALL the wills of the participants were DIRECTED by GOD, it would seem freewill would have to come cleanly and logically off the table. I mean really, what is the real problem with PERFECT GOD being in charge anyway? I don't have a problem with that. I sure don't want the yob. Do you?
Now certain 'men's' reflections of what Divine Sovereignty is or consists of, yeah, that is AN ENTIRELY different story that cannot POSSIBLY be true. The notion of Divine Sovereignty logically dictates that ONLY GOD can define what that is and consists of in FULL. Since we all understand only in part, (even the Apostles admit to this,) then WHO is fully truthfully equipped to say they have the WHOLE enchilada on these subjects anyway? It may seem a bit mancentric megalomania to present things that way. When you hear any believer group say GOD IS DIVINELY SOVEREIGN and then proceeds to say THEY are the only ARIBITER of what that is and consists of, alarm bells should logically be going off in our heads.
Yeah, I think that too and I also think God is A LOT more Sovereign than ANY VERSIONs I can come up with. And when the FREEWILL version of God is deployed it is THE PEOPLE who are going to PICK WHICH VERSION pleases them the most. The biggest church, the most modern building, the best social plans or best live music or (insert whatever pleases their CHOICE) versions of GOD in Christ, as long as it's not TOO RADICAL eh? That IS what the freewill selection versions of God HAVE openly produced. I really gotta hand it to the R.C.C. for having a long term freewill organization. They still appear to be the numbers winner via FREEWILL, except if they DON'T adhere to the RCC version of what FREEWILL decisions they must make. THEN they MAY go to hell. Nah, that ain't a manipulation of FREEwill is it? Nah. No pressure there.
Are you so sure about that? Romans 11:32 says that it was GOD who bound ALL MEN to disobedience in order to have MERCY upon them all. I have no problem with our bindings to disobedience because it is A PROVEN FACT in ALL, period. No one has 'freed' themselves of SIN or SINNING by their freewill. It has never happened. God Himself in the Flesh of Jesus Christ was, is and remains THEE ONLY VICTOR. And why not? I expect my version of God to be pretty much a whole lot more perfect than myself or any given group of religious dissectioners, past, present or future. I mean really, Paul himself admitted that he had EVIL PRESENT with him when he desired to do good and even had A DEVIL put upon him. How WEAK is that?
Ah, so you think someone might have snuck in an extra biblical blow or two totally and entirely on their own? I don't really think so.
Isaiah 53:
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
The fact is that GOD PLANNED the execution of HIS OWN SON. If you say it was sloppy planning subject to change by the supposed freewill participants, I'd have to say, er, ah, prolly not. There was DIVINE REASON and ACTION involved in EVERY last detail, NONE of which were left TO CHANCE so some blow hard bragging SINNER who gave HIM an 'extra whack' could claim credit by adding to HIS SUFFERING by their freewill actions upon Him later on.
No, it was ALL of and by GOD ALONE. Not ONE DROP of HIS HOLY and PRECIOUS BLOOD was shed BY CHANCE.
Not unless we went back and rewrote the text. You coulda been Jesus if that were true.
Pilate asked Jesus this question: WHAT IS TRUTH? Jesus didn't even bother to ANSWER him.
My friend Smaller brings up an interesting point about God blinding Israel.
Does God take innocent men, blind them to His grace, and then blame them for rejecting Him?
Psalm 81:11-12 is one of several passages that explains why God blinds certain people:
11 "But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me.
12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels.
Does God take innocent men, blind them to His grace, and then blame them for rejecting Him?
Psalm 81:11-12 is one of several passages that explains why God blinds certain people:
11 "But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me.
12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels.
smaller
Member
yeah...yer getting the point:
Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
There are thankfully PERFECTLY LOGICAL and REASONABLE explanations about how and why those things happen, and those reasonings do NOT revolve around the MAN in whom they happen.
Paul the Apostle was very open about the fact that EVIL was present with him, even A DEVIL was put upon him. How utterly honest was Paul in those statements? I say wow, now THERE is a TRUTH SPEAKING man, speaking his WEAKNESS that are DEMONIC.
So, if those statements were true for AN APOSTLE it should become readily apparent that God is ALSO dealing with a whole ENTITY CLASS that is NOT MAN, even though that presence is WITH man. A simple principle to me today, but I myself could NOT see this fact for a very long time, blaming instead my own 'freewill' for EVIL thoughts and actions. That is not the case that scripture makes. But the case itself is HARD for the PRIDE of EVIL that all men are attached to to be HONEST about what scripture says in these matters.
Yes, God IS dealing with SATAN and DEVILS in our present environment. An entire entity class that CANNOT be seen except through WORD DISCLOSURES.
It ain't 'just us' there in our own heads. And as such there can be NO FREE WILL. That 'temptation thought' that may have just shot through your MIND is NOT from you and your freewill CAN NOT stop that from happening.
Gods Will and the resisting will of the Devil are in play IN the WILL of man, ALL.
That's the way it IS. Like it or not. Agree or not. Doesn't matter. It's a FACT.
God IS in control of the entire deal. The Good News is that He is FOR us and against the DEVIL.
Some are meant to come forth and be honest in this matter. MOST are meant to deny the fact -> because of the other power working in them.
Man can receive THE FULLNESS OF GRACE.
DEVILS can not.
Easy math. Both positions are FULLY TRUE and FULLY APPLICABLE.
Both positions are IN man. Man and devils are bound in the SAME LUMP just as Paul taught in Romans 9.
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