The New Testament Doctrine of Grace

[Drew]

And that is simply not the case. There are warnings in chapter 11 to BELIEVERS of any sort as well.

True enough, but this only strengthens my case. The fact that Paul admonishes the Gentiles in chapter 11 does not mean that his main argument is something other than this: God has hardened Jews so that salvation can be extended to the world.

In fact, consider the actual phraseology Paul uses in his warning to the Gentiles:

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either

Note that this warning to the Gentiles is rooted in the very premise that I am arguing for - that Jews have been hardened so that Gentiles can benefit. Clearly, the "broken branches" here are Jews, and Jews only. Paul is warning the Gentiles to not misunderstand the hardening that God has brought on the Jews and somehow think that this means that Gentiles are "superior" to Jews. Paul points out that the Jews were hardened so that the Gentile could be grafted in to the tree. Therefore, the Gentile needs to be thankful to God for how he (the Gentile) has benefited from the hardening of the Jew. This theme is repeated in what Paul says next:

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul is telling the Gentile that he (the Gentile) has benefited from the hardening that has happened to, yes, the Jew. But if the Gentile says to himself "those Jews deserved to be hardened", then that Gentile will be in danger of being "cut off" himself.

This entire chunk of text works perfectly with the assertion that Paul's overall argument is that Jews have been hardened for the benefit of Gentiles.

Just like a potter would harden a pot.;)

 

[smaller]

True enough, but this only strengthens my case. The fact that Paul admonishes the Gentiles in chapter 11 does not mean that his main argument is something other than this: God has hardened Jews so that salvation can be extended to the world.

Let's settle this portion. I am not disagreeing with your view of 'unbelieving' Jews being hardened. And the only point I'm putting out is that it is NOT ONLY JEWS. Esau, Pharoah and even warnings to believers ARE both presented and contained in the chapters you are insisting are ONLY Jews. It is more accurate to say 'unbelievers' rather than Jews and that takes OFF the table the Jews only page. Call me anti-semetic sensitive. God is no respecter of persons. He will harden whom he will and not respective of their nation of origin.

In fact, consider the actual phraseology Paul uses in his warning to the Gentiles:

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either

Note that this warning to the Gentiles is rooted in the very premise that I am arguing for - that Jews have been hardened so that Gentiles can benefit.

Notice what is underlined above in reference to believers not being 'spared' either. The observation remains that God hardens WHOM HE WILL just as Paul stated, and NOT JUST JEWS.

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Were your attempts to say ONLY JEWS true, then we would have to insert that in the above as GOD HARDENS ONLY JEWS, which is patently not TRUE.

Clearly, the "broken branches" here are Jews, and Jews only.

God has always had 'sheep' in other folds. And many a Gentile was joined to Judaism.

Paul is warning the Gentiles to not misunderstand the hardening that God has brought on the Jews and somehow think that this means that Gentiles are "superior" to Jews.

Not sparing arrogant bragging over Jew unbelievers would be THEIR hardening and the potential to NOT sparing.

Paul points out that the Jews were hardened so that the Gentile could be grafted in to the tree. Therefore, the Gentile needs to be thankful to God for how he (the Gentile) has benefited from the hardening of the Jew. This theme is repeated in what Paul says next:

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul is telling the Gentile that he (the Gentile) has benefited from the hardening that has happened to, yes, the Jew. But if the Gentile says to himself "those Jews deserved to be hardened", then that Gentile will be in danger of being "cut off" himself.

Thank you for getting around to that truthful conclusion, that it's NOT just a matter of JEWS but of WHOM HE WILL.

s

 

[Drew]

Let's settle this portion. I am not disagreeing with your view of 'unbelieving' Jews being hardened. And the only point I'm putting out is that it is NOT ONLY JEWS. Esau, Pharoah and even warnings to believers ARE both presented and contained in the chapters you are insisting are ONLY Jews. It is more accurate to say 'unbelievers' rather than Jews and that takes OFF the table the Jews only page. Call me anti-semetic sensitive. God is no respecter of persons. He will harden whom he will and not respective of their nation of origin.

Well I think you are not seeing Paul's argument as he wrote it. Yes, there are references to non-Jews being hardened. But these are given as examples in service of Paul's overall point in this section - that God has hardened Jews for the benefit of the world. I never said that God does not harden Gentiles. What I am saying is that, in this section of the book of Romans, Paul is centrally concerned with how the hardening of Jews has been a central part of God's plan to save the whole world.

There is no issue of anti-Semitism - the text says what it says - Jews have indeed been hardened. If the fact that God hardened the nation of Israel strikes you as anti-semitic, then I suggest you need to take the matter up with Paul. It is not me who writes that Jews have been broken of so that Gentiles can be grafted in - it is Paul.

 

[chestertonrules]

Well I think you are not seeing Paul's argument as he wrote it. Yes, there are references to non-Jews being hardened. But these are given as examples in service of Paul's overall point in this section - that God has hardened Jews for the benefit of the world. I never said that God does not harden Gentiles. What I am saying is that, in this section of the book of Romans, Paul is centrally concerned with how the hardening of Jews has been a central part of God's plan to save the whole world.

There is no issue of anti-Semitism - the text says what it says - Jews have indeed been hardened. If the fact that God hardened the nation of Israel strikes you as anti-semitic, then I suggest you need to take the matter up with Paul. It is not me who writes that Jews have been broken of so that Gentiles can be grafted in - it is Paul.

Paul was a Jew. All the apostles were Jews. When you say that Jews have been hardened I think you are missing the point.

God hardens those who reject his grace and prefer personal power and pride to submission to God's will.

 

[Drew]

Notice what is underlined above in reference to believers not being 'spared' either. The observation remains that God hardens WHOM HE WILL just as Paul stated, and NOT JUST JEWS.

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Were your attempts to say ONLY JEWS true, then we would have to insert that in the above as GOD HARDENS ONLY JEWS, which is patently not TRUE.

This is not correct reasoning. No one is denying that God can and does harden Gentiles. But the fact that God can and does harden Gentiles does not mean that Paul cannot also make an argument about how God has hardened the nation of Israel in support of His grand plan of redemption. Now I have not yet provided all the relevant arguments. But your line of reasoning seems to be this:

1. There are examples in Romans 9 of God hardening Gentiles;
2. Therefore it is impossible that the general intent of 9 to 11 is to address a hardening of Jews only.

This is obviously not a correct line of reasoning. Paul could be giving a series of examples of God's having the right to harden people - including examples of Gentiles - to lead to a specific conclusion about a specific hardening of Israel only. You cannot legitimately deny this possibility.

If I give a series of examples of what happens to people who do not study for their exams - that they failed, I could, of course, be leading to a specific conclusion that a particular class of students of students failed for the same reason.

In short, the fact that there are examples of Gentiles being hardened, and the fact that there are "general" statements about God having the right to harden people does not means that Paul is not leading to a conclusion about a very specific instance of hardening - in this case, that Jews have been hardened.

 

[Drew]

Paul was a Jew. All the apostles were Jews. When you say that Jews have been hardened I think you are missing the point.

God hardens those who reject his grace and prefer personal power and pride to submission to God's will.

I may have been careless at points. I am saying that Paul is saying that most Jews have indeed been hardened.

I agree with your general point about hardening, but suggest that Paul is not speaking generally in 9 to 11. He is talking about a hardening that happened to Israel.

 

[chestertonrules]

I may have been careless at points. I am saying that Paul is saying that most Jews have indeed been hardened.

I agree with your general point about hardening, but suggest that Paul is not speaking generally in 9 to 11. He is talking about a hardening that happened to Israel.

Is it your contention that God wanted some Jews to reject his will?

 

[smaller]

This is not correct reasoning. No one is denying that God can and does harden Gentiles.

But the fact that God can and does harden Gentiles does not mean that Paul cannot also make an argument about how God has hardened the nation of Israel in support of His grand plan of redemption. Now I have not yet provided all the relevant arguments.

I am not denying your premise. The caveat was that the hardening does remain at His Will on 'whomever,' Jew or Gentile notwithstanding. It matters NOT.

And yes, there are DIVINE PURPOSES in the hardening of unbelieving Israel just as there were (and are) such purposes with the hardening of the ENEMIES of Israel who are and were NOT Jews and the hardening of those who could CARE LESS about Jews or Israel. These are all DIVINE matters.

Paul concludes these matters showing in FACT that God has bound ALL MEN to disobedience. That is the WORKING OF SIN and EVIL in us ALL. And that comes with DIVINE PURPOSES, that HE may demonstrate DIVINE MERCY unto us. (Romans 11:32)

We too were (theoretically) once BLINDED and UNbelievers regardless of our national origin or our hardening against Jews which I certainly did not have. My observation is that God can and does enlighten whomever He Will, whenever He Will OR can reverse if He So Chooses.

But your line of reasoning seems to be this:

1. There are examples in Romans 9 of God hardening Gentiles;
2. Therefore it is impossible that the general intent of 9 to 11 is to address a hardening of Jews only.

Romans is probably one of my favorite books. There are many broad, even universally applicable themes therein. And no, it is not just about hardening JEWS.

Paul applies the broader principles of the workings of indwelling sin WHICH ALL MANKIND HAS and applies that understanding in relation to the working of LAW and to the nation of Israel, Gentile believers, etc etc. It certainly isn't just about hardening Jews.

This is obviously not a correct line of reasoning. Paul could be giving a series of examples of God's having the right to harden people - including examples of Gentiles - to lead to a specific conclusion about a specific hardening of Israel only. You cannot legitimately deny this possibility.

Look, we are chasing our tails here. You admit that hardening of Jews only is NOT therein. Now you are trying to make a case that hardening Gentiles was for hardening Jews. oie veh.

Just cut to Romans 11:32 and SEE that God has in fact bound ALL.

If I give a series of examples of what happens to people who do not study for their exams - that they failed, I could, of course, be leading to a specific conclusion that a particular class of students of students failed for the same reason.

In short, the fact that there are examples of Gentiles being hardened, and the fact that there are "general" statements about God having the right to harden people does not means that Paul is not leading to a conclusion about a very specific instance of hardening - in this case, that Jews have been hardened.

I'm sorry. I just can't get to your unbelieving Jew concentric position and unbeliving Jew only place as it doesn't exist.

There ARE broader themes employed therein that are applicable to ALL mankind.

s

 

[Drew]

Romans is probably one of my favorite books. There are many broad, even universally applicable themes therein. And no, it is not just about hardening JEWS.

I never suggested that Romans was "just about hardening Jews" - I suggested that chapters 9 to 11 are significantly concerned with the argument that Jews have been hardened so that the entire world can be saved.

You cannot simply claim that 9 to 11 is not about what I am suggesting it is about.

Likewise, I need to argue that, in respect to the matter of hardening as it is addressed in these three chapters, it is hardening of Jews only that Paul is centrally concerned with.

 

[Drew]

Look, we are chasing our tails here. You admit that hardening of Jews only is NOT therein. Now you are trying to make a case that hardening Gentiles was for hardening Jews. oie veh.

Please read more carefully. I never posted anything that suggests that "hardening Gentiles was for hardening Jews". And I have repeatedly affirmed that Paul does refer to cases where Gentiles were hardened. But this does no damage to my case which is that the entire three chapter section is primarily Paul's detailed explanation of how God has hardened Jews so that the entire world can benefit.

 

[Drew]

Is it your contention that God wanted some Jews to reject his will?

This is my contention:

1. God planned to use Israel to bless the world - this is clear from a number of convenantal passages in the Old Testament;

2. God did this by "hardening" the majority of Jews who freely started down the path of rejection of God. So yes, God indeed harden them, but only after they started down the path of rejecting Him.

3. This hardening is the means by which Israel has blessed the nations - Israel has followed a pattern that Jesus brings to its climax - being a "vessel" in which sin is borne.

 

[smaller]

This is my contention:

1. God planned to use Israel to bless the world - this is clear from a number of convenantal passages in the Old Testament;

2. God did this by "hardening" the majority of Jews who freely started down the path of rejection of God. So yes, God indeed harden them, but only after they started down the path of rejecting Him.

And let's not look at the conundrum of logic there...

3. This hardening is the means by which Israel has blessed the nations - Israel has followed a pattern that Jesus brings to its climax - being a "vessel" in which sin is borne.

Last time I checked John the Apostle said we can not say we 'have' no sin and be IN TRUTH.

The presence of the power of sin is within all mankind and within believer or unbeliever (except Jesus Christ of course) and is certainly not unique to unbelieving Jews only.

 

[chestertonrules]

This is my contention:

1. God planned to use Israel to bless the world - this is clear from a number of convenantal passages in the Old Testament;

2. God did this by "hardening" the majority of Jews who freely started down the path of rejection of God. So yes, God indeed harden them, but only after they started down the path of rejecting Him.

3. This hardening is the means by which Israel has blessed the nations - Israel has followed a pattern that Jesus brings to its climax - being a "vessel" in which sin is borne.

1) I agree

2) The hardening was a result of disobedience, not God's will, so I think we agree here. God allowed it to happen.

3) I disagree. I don't think that individuals rejecting Jesus was necessary for God to save the world.

 

[Drew]

And let's not look at the conundrum of logic there...

Please tell me precisely where there is any error of logic in what I have asserted.

Last time I checked John the Apostle said we can not say we 'have' no sin and be IN TRUTH.

The presence of the power of sin is within all mankind and within believer or unbeliever (except Jesus Christ of course) and is certainly not unique to unbelieving Jews only.

Not the point. Paul says what he says: Jews have been hardened with salvific implications for Gentiles:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

Are you prepared to correct Paul on this saying, in your words "Paul, the presence of the power of sin is within all mankind and within believer or unbeliever (except Jesus Christ of course) and is certainly not unique to unbelieving Jews only"

Yes or no, is Paul mistaken in his repeated assertions in Romans 11 that Jews in particular have been "hardened" to the salvific benefit of Gentiles?

 

[Drew]

3) I disagree. I don't think that individuals rejecting Jesus was necessary for God to save the world.

What do you think Paul meant when he wrote this:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

The "they" here is clearly Israel. This is as clear a statement as one could make - because of the transgression of Israel (clearly their rejection of God and Jesus in particular) salvation, yes salvation, has come to Gentiles.

 

[chestertonrules]

Please tell me precisely where there is any error of logic in what I have asserted.


Not the point. Paul says what he says: Jews have been hardened with salvific implications for Gentiles:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

Are you prepared to correct Paul on this saying, in your words "Paul, the presence of the power of sin is within all mankind and within believer or unbeliever (except Jesus Christ of course) and is certainly not unique to unbelieving Jews only"

Yes or no, is Paul mistaken in his repeated assertions in Romans 11 that Jews in particular have been "hardened" to the salvific benefit of Gentiles?

I believe your interpretation is flawed. You are ignoring his conclusion:



Romans 11
30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

and this:

Eze 33
11Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
12“Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.’

 

[smaller]

Please tell me precisely where there is any error of logic in what I have asserted.


Not the point. Paul says what he says: Jews have been hardened with salvific implications for Gentiles:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

Are you prepared to correct Paul on this saying, in your words "Paul, the presence of the power of sin is within all mankind and within believer or unbeliever (except Jesus Christ of course) and is certainly not unique to unbelieving Jews only"

Yes or no, is Paul mistaken in his repeated assertions in Romans 11 that Jews in particular have been "hardened" to the salvific benefit of Gentiles?

Already conceded Drew.

Paul does a very fine job in explaning 'how' they got there which same 'working' is in ALL mankind also presented therein.

The presence of indwelling sin is universally in ALL MANKIND. This is singled out and show in Israel, but the fact has always been there within ALL of us courtesy of SIN entering ADAM in the Garden.

 

[Drew]

The presence of indwelling sin is universally in ALL MANKIND. This is singled out and show in Israel, but the fact has always been there within ALL of us courtesy of SIN entering ADAM in the Garden.

I agree, but in Romans 9 to 11, Paul is not simply using Israel as an example of this more universal truth. He is saying that God hardened Israel so that Gentiles can be saved:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
Granted.

This is more than simply saying "Israel is an example of the more general principle that God hardens people", it is a statement that the "hardening" of Israel is a central element of God's plan of salvation.

There, I have said it. I am quite sure that last cutie will elicit howls of theological protest.

 

[Drew]

I believe your interpretation is flawed. You are ignoring his conclusion:’

I agree that I need to make sense of the texts you provide in the context of the view I am advocating. But you have the same challenge. I will endeavour to respond to the texts you posted, but you need to likewise address my question:

What do you think Paul meant when he wrote this:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

 

[chestertonrules]

I agree that I need to make sense of the texts you provide in the context of the view I am advocating. But you have the same challenge. I will endeavour to respond to the texts you posted, but you need to likewise address my question:

What do you think Paul meant when he wrote this:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

I think I did respond, but my answer was that I don't know! Ha!

It could simply mean that salvation came to the gentiles through the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Whatever it means, I don't think it changes the fact that God has alwayas wanted all men to repent and follow his will.