The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[Hitch]

I understand your point, but I view all scripture as one, unbroken chain. No link is more or less important than the others. In other words, scripture can interpret scripture.

Then John 3;16 has nothing on : 20And Hur begat Uri, and Uri begat Bezaleel. The more direct the quote the less colored by interpretation the passage. Case in point; I 'll wager you dont believe the 'two men' (Colonel Sanders and his brother?) were men at all ,correct?

So, if two men say He will return in "like manner", I believe it. Jesus, body and all, was taken up and His followers "beheld" the event. You have to admit that without twisting scripture, that's pretty clear.

If the question is 'Did Jesus say XYZ?" Whether something is clear or not makes no difference.

 

[Vic C.]

Then John 3;16 has nothing on : 20And Hur begat Uri, and Uri begat Bezaleel. The more direct the quote the less colored by interpretation the passage. Case in point; I 'll wager you dont believe the 'two men' (Colonel Sanders and his brother?) were men at all ,correct? If the question is 'Did Jesus say XYZ?" Whether something is clear or not makes no difference.

Oh never mind. We're getting off the OP anyway. We can discuss the differences between key doctrinal passages and simple genealogical verses some other time. ;)

 

[Stormcrow]

So you are cool with pulling verses out of there context and using them were you deem fit. Ok just wanted to clarify that.

No. I was providing examples of why your insistence that Zechariah 12 be read the way you read it is NOT how the writers of Matthew, John, or the Revelation read it: these men getting their reading of it straight from Christ Himself!

 

[theLords]

Yup. The empty tomb testifies toward bodily resurrection as love for the church testifies of spiritual resurrection.

Please, please elaborate. I've never heard this before. Are you saying that our own love for the Body of Christ testifies to our own spiritual resurrection? If so, how, why? etc. I found that statement quite beautiful.

 

[Stormcrow]

No when you abandon the context you can make the bible say as you please

Which is EXACTLY what I've written here, here, and here, to name a few.

What you're not getting is the fact that Christ Himself gave the apostles insight to use those selective citations to make a point about His coming!

And what is the point He's trying to make???

That the THEY of Revelation 1:7 DOES NOT APPLY TO US!

Look at it again from the Young's Literal Translation:

{7} Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

Christ's coming on the clouds in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD was an event reserved specifically for the tribes of the land, as enumerated in Zechariah 12:10-14!

It was not an event meant for us living 2,000 years later in the United States of America!!!

Get it??? His coming on the clouds was for them, NOT US!

And Matthew uses a portion of this same verse from Zechariah to make EXACTLY the same point John does in Rev. 1:7!

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

Matthew and John are both describing the same event: the desolation of Jerusalem and Christ's coming in power and judgment on those who pierced Him!


The only part of Zech. 12 they needed to quote was the part that explained who the "tribes of the land" were!

THEY! Not you, me, us or we: THEY!!!

 

[Stormcrow]

In the final analysis you have to be wrong because you are claiming that the sky has fallen and I just went outside and it is still there(clear and blue).

The sky hasn't fallen for us. It did, however, fall for Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I have repeadedly said that you are basicly correct about the time element,yes the NT writers believed that the "last times",the "time of Christ return",was at hand and would occur shortly, however you would have to be "three sheets into the wind","in a pipe dream","our of your tree", and "off the wall"(get my drift) to take the position that the return of Christ described by Jesus and the other NT writers and the events past chapter 4 in Rev have occured!!!

Why? Were they??? They were the ones who wrote these things: I'm taking them at their word. You, however, are not. I stand on what the Word says.

That is insanity because you have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for what you speak.

I've provided more than enough evidence. I provided it when I posted excerpts from Josephus wherein he recounted signs in the sky of the impending doom awaiting Jerusalem. You ignored it.

I provided it with in-depth research of the OT analogs to "Mystery Babylon" pointing irrefutably to 1st century Jerusalem. You argued with me about that.

I provided it with the plain text of John saying repeatedly that these things were coming "soon" and were "at hand." You rejected it.

I provided it proving that the sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds was meant for the "tribes of the land" according to Zech. 12:10-14. You rejected it.

Proof has been provided to you that the gospel was preached to the whole world prior to 70 AD. You refused to accept it.

Proof that earthquakes, wars, famine and persecution all happened before 70 AD was provided. You reject it.

We've provided proof that Nero is the beast from the earth of Rev. 13, and that "antichrist" is the name of a spirit that opposes Christ and His church, and not the proper noun of some "end-time" (for us) "boogeyman." You reject it.

In short, there is more than enough evidence to sway those who are open-minded to what the Bible and history actually say about these things.

There will never be enough evidence to convince people - like yourself - who are more interested in defending a doctrine than pursuing the truth wherever it leads.

 

[Hitch]

Please, please elaborate. I've never heard this before. Are you saying that our own love for the Body of Christ testifies to our own spiritual resurrection? If so, how, why? etc. I found that statement quite beautiful.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


Spiritual resurrection is primary, first in fact and import. It sad that some folks would use this reality to deny the reality of bodily resurrection. We are blessed to hear;

'Why seek ye the living among the dead'?

The tomb is forever empty and the Throne is forever filled.

 

[n2thelight]

The sky hasn't fallen for us. It did, however, fall for Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Why? Were they??? They were the ones who wrote these things: I'm taking them at their word. You, however, are not. I stand on what the Word says.

I've provided more than enough evidence. I provided it when I posted excerpts from Josephus wherein he recounted signs in the sky of the impending doom awaiting Jerusalem. You ignored it.

I provided it with in-depth research of the OT analogs to "Mystery Babylon" pointing irrefutably to 1st century Jerusalem. You argued with me about that.

I provided it with the plain text of John saying repeatedly that these things were coming "soon" and were "at hand." You rejected it.

I provided it proving that the sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds was meant for the "tribes of the land" according to Zech. 12:10-14. You rejected it.

Proof has been provided to you that the gospel was preached to the whole world prior to 70 AD. You refused to accept it.

Proof that earthquakes, wars, famine and persecution all happened before 70 AD was provided. You reject it.

We've provided proof that Nero is the beast from the earth of Rev. 13, and that "antichrist" is the name of a spirit that opposes Christ and His church, and not the proper noun of some "end-time" (for us) "boogeyman." You reject it.

In short, there is more than enough evidence to sway those who are open-minded to what the Bible and history actually say about these things.

There will never be enough evidence to convince people - like yourself - who are more interested in defending a doctrine than pursuing the truth wherever it leads.

Simple question,why are we still in flesh bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



Matthew 24:6 "And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

The above verse states that as long as there are wars the end is not,so if there were wars after AD 70 your view can't be true.

You the any man in the below verse

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

The below verse is when Christ returns

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

When the world is at peace allbeit a false one,then shall Christ return...plain and simple.....

 

[Stormcrow]

why are we still in flesh bodies?

Ah, because we haven't died yet?

You keep thinking of His return from Matthew 24 and Revelation as something that was meant for you. As you have been repeatedly shown, "THEY" is not US!!!

Again, for the comprehensionally impaired:

{7} Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him [did YOU pierce Him???], and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

And who are the "tribes of the land"???

{10} And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

{11} In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddon. {12} And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; {13} the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; {14} all the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:10-14 (Darby)

"THEY" is NOT US!!!

His return in the context of Matthew 24 and Revelation relates to His coming IN JUDGMENT! It is NOT a coming to rescue you from your past-due bills, maxed-out credit cards, bratty teen-aged children or acne! 2

 

[warhorse]

Which is EXACTLY what I've written here, here, and here, to name a few.

What you're not getting is the fact that Christ Himself gave the apostles insight to use those selective citations to make a point about His coming!

And what is the point He's trying to make???

That the THEY of Revelation 1:7 DOES NOT APPLY TO US!

Look at it again from the Young's Literal Translation:

{7} Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

Christ's coming on the clouds in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD was an event reserved specifically for the tribes of the land, as enumerated in Zechariah 12:10-14!

It was not an event meant for us living 2,000 years later in the United States of America!!!

Get it??? His coming on the clouds was for them, NOT US!

And Matthew uses a portion of this same verse from Zechariah to make EXACTLY the same point John does in Rev. 1:7!

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

Matthew and John are both describing the same event: the desolation of Jerusalem and Christ's coming in power and judgment on those who pierced Him!


The only part of Zech. 12 they needed to quote was the part that explained who the "tribes of the land" were!

THEY! Not you, me, us or we: THEY!!!

First off you are presuming that the all the tribes referance meant israel's tribe of Judah. The tribes of israel are scattered over the entire planet and were long before 70 ad. Even now there are more Jews in NY city than in israel.

Math 24v31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Mark13v27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

luke 21v27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Col 3v4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Give up on eschatology until you have a solid understanding of romans and hebrews.

 

[Sam21]

Which is EXACTLY what I've written here, here, and here, to name a few.

What you're not getting is the fact that Christ Himself gave the apostles insight to use those selective citations to make a point about His coming!

And what is the point He's trying to make???

That the THEY of Revelation 1:7 DOES NOT APPLY TO US!

Look at it again from the Young's Literal Translation:

{7} Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

Christ's coming on the clouds in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD was an event reserved specifically for the tribes of the land, as enumerated in Zechariah 12:10-14!

It was not an event meant for us living 2,000 years later in the United States of America!!!

Get it??? His coming on the clouds was for them, NOT US!

And Matthew uses a portion of this same verse from Zechariah to make EXACTLY the same point John does in Rev. 1:7!

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

Matthew and John are both describing the same event: the desolation of Jerusalem and Christ's coming in power and judgment on those who pierced Him!


The only part of Zech. 12 they needed to quote was the part that explained who the "tribes of the land" were!

THEY! Not you, me, us or we: THEY!!!

Surely you jest? YOU know that the tribes of the land saw Jesus return in 70AD? We all know that you COULD NOT know that the tribes of the land saw Jesus return in 70AD unless you were one of those tribes and for some reason did not die or perhaps you have a time machine and went back and interviewed one of those members of the tribes. You are making an outlandish claim based on nothing but your imagination...you cannot see that can you?

 

[Sam21]

The sky hasn't fallen for us. It did, however, fall for Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Why? Were they??? They were the ones who wrote these things: I'm taking them at their word. You, however, are not. I stand on what the Word says.

I've provided more than enough evidence. I provided it when I posted excerpts from Josephus wherein he recounted signs in the sky of the impending doom awaiting Jerusalem. You ignored it.

I provided it with in-depth research of the OT analogs to "Mystery Babylon" pointing irrefutably to 1st century Jerusalem. You argued with me about that.

I provided it with the plain text of John saying repeatedly that these things were coming "soon" and were "at hand." You rejected it.

I provided it proving that the sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds was meant for the "tribes of the land" according to Zech. 12:10-14. You rejected it.

Proof has been provided to you that the gospel was preached to the whole world prior to 70 AD. You refused to accept it.

Proof that earthquakes, wars, famine and persecution all happened before 70 AD was provided. You reject it.

We've provided proof that Nero is the beast from the earth of Rev. 13, and that "antichrist" is the name of a spirit that opposes Christ and His church, and not the proper noun of some "end-time" (for us) "boogeyman." You reject it.

In short, there is more than enough evidence to sway those who are open-minded to what the Bible and history actually say about these things.

There will never be enough evidence to convince people - like yourself - who are more interested in defending a doctrine than pursuing the truth wherever it leads.

Josephus gave a pretty good account of history in his time,however he did embellish here and there for effect and Josephus did not say that Christ returned and gathered the believers. YOU ARE MISSING A BIG POINT! There is an actual history of the church beginning from the day of Pentecost up until today, if you believe Josephus then believe the history of the church for it is well documented. The church did not disappear in 70AD,the greater evidence shows that John wrote Rev after 90AD,you are ignoring all kinds of evidence in order to arrive at where you want to be.

 

[Hitch]

Surely you jest? YOU know that the tribes of the land saw Jesus return in 70AD? We all know that you COULD NOT know that the tribes of the land saw Jesus return in 70AD unless you were one of those tribes and for some reason did not die or perhaps you have a time machine and went back and interviewed one of those members of the tribes. You are making an outlandish claim based on nothing but your imagination...you cannot see that can you?

You've lost it Sam.

 

[Stormcrow]

First off you are presuming that the all the tribes referance meant israel's tribe of Judah.

I presume nothing except that which is defined by the Words Christ spoke and what was recorded and passed on to us by His apostles.

This is precisely why Matthew and John used the Zechariah 12:10-14 reference: to define EXACTLY who they meant by "tribes of the land."

Oh, and one more thing: I posted further evidence here as to what the phrase "the land" meant to the Jew.

Here's an excerpt:

Here is a list of verses referring to "the land" in the OT:

Gen. 13:15, Gen. 15:17-18, Gen. 17:18, Gen. 26:3,12,22, Gen. 28:4, 13, Gen.35:12, Ex. 6:4, Lev. 19:29, Lev. 20:2,4,22,24, Lev. 23:10, 39, Lev.25: 2,4,19,23-24, Lev. 26:6.

And there are many, many more (too tired to post them all.)

Getting the picture yet?

"The Land" was all you had to say to a Jew and they would've immediately known what you were talking about: the land given to Abraham as part of the covenant between he and God.

You're refusing to see what these words meant to the apostles and, instead, substituting your own meanings for them. You're not seeing them through their eyes but your own. 2

Math 24v31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Mark13v27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So tell me, do you even know what this "last trumpet" is? I don't mean what you've read from "Left Behind", but what the Bible actually says about it???

Try this:

{7} but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7 (NASB)

The seventh angel here is the one holding the seventh (last trumpet). What is this "mystery of God" that's finished before He sounds???

{2} that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
Colossians 2:2 (NASB)

Christ Himself is the "mystery of God" who was hidden from the Jews so that He could bring the Gentiles into His fold!

{25} Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, {26} that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, {27} to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Colossians 1:25-27 (NASB)

So, Christ's sacrifice, having brought the Gentiles into His kingdom, the seventh (last) trumpet sounds:

{15} Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." Revelation 11:15 (NASB)

Here's how Young's Literal puts it:

{15} And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'

{16} and the twenty and four elders, who before God are sitting upon their thrones, did fall upon their faces, and did bow before God, {17} saying, `We give thanks to Thee, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art, and who wast, and who art coming, because Thou hast taken Thy great power and didst reign;

{18} and the nations were angry [to the point of persecuting to death those who believe in Christ, starting with the Jews], and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.' Revelation 11:15-18 (YLT)

Hmmm...there's that phrase "the land" again. I wonder to whom or what that could be referring.

There is NOTHING in the verses you cited above that describe IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, the rescue of the church in America from the "tribulation" we face every day: rush-hour traffic, maxed-out credit cards, and jobs you hate!

This post is long enough. Peace. Out.

 

[Stormcrow]

the greater evidence shows that John wrote Rev after 90AD

One passage from Iraneus is the only evidence that exists for the "late date" writing of Revelation:

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]Those who hold to the "late date," have Revelation written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96). This date is determined by the following statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

There are things about this statement that need to be noted. First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He referred to Polycarp (who supposedly knew the apostle John). Secondly, the key part — "it is not long since it was seen" — is ambiguous. According to Irenaeus recollection, Polycarp saw "it" sometime in AD 95-96, during the last part Domitian's reign. Thirdly, we do not know if the "it" Polycarp was referring to was John, the visions he saw, the name of anti-christ, or the book itself and we do not know if he meant that the book was written at that time or not. Furthermore, it comes to us through three people separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is hear-say

This statement, even with all of this uncertainty, is the only evidence used to support the "late date" theory. It has been accepted by generations of people without really questioning it or examining it in light of the book itself. The late date has been passed on to us in the same way it was passed on to Eusebius, "…it [was] handed down by tradition…" Tradition is not the way to interpret Scripture.
[/FONT]

[/FONT]The writer of this blog goes on to suggest that the strongest proof for the early writing (mid-60s AD) of Revelation, comes from this passage:

{1} Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. {2} "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. Revelation 11:1-2 (NASB)

The second temple was still standing! What's more, Luke writes this in reference to it:

{24} and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem [holy city] will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles [nations] until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled [42 months!].
Luke 21:24 (NASB)

See? I don't have to make this stuff up. I just have to let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[Stormcrow]

YOU know that the tribes of the land saw Jesus return in 70AD?

Nope. I know what the Word says, though. I believe it. Don't you?

 

[Lehigh3]

Josephus gave a pretty good account of history in his time,however he did embellish here and there for effect and Josephus did not say that Christ returned and gathered the believers. YOU ARE MISSING A BIG POINT! There is an actual history of the church beginning from the day of Pentecost up until today, if you believe Josephus then believe the history of the church for it is well documented. The church did not disappear in 70AD,the greater evidence shows that John wrote Rev after 90AD,you are ignoring all kinds of evidence in order to arrive at where you want to be.

Tradition says John wrote Revelation in AD95 to support their ecclesiastical agendas. All Scripture was written before AD70. Internal evidence & history supports the earlier date. Even if AD95 was true, John wrote what God said about ALL must shortly take place- so there is no use arguing against God's timing in John's lifetime.

The church was not supposed to "disappear" in AD70 either! Such imaginations added to the Text! I will post what Paul meant in 1Thess. 4:18 shortly. (pun intended!)

And yes, the only sign of His return (wasn't twice nor will be) but over the Jerusalem skies around AD70)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]QUESTION: Matt. 28:19, 20 “..lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.†(AGE) Does this imply that he was “with them†always, or only until AD 70?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ANSWER: The Greek here is very interesting. Literally translated, it reads, “...and behold I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age.†There is an unfortunate translation here. It should say, “the whole time†(lit. “all the daysâ€) rather than “always.†He would be with them the whole time they were announcing the coming of the kingdom, down to the very consummation of that age. He was simply telling them they would not be alone during this period when the great commission was being accomplished (from 30 to AD 70). He would be Spiritually present with them (through the work of the Holy Spirit) to see them through to the very end of that old Jewish age. In AD 66-70, Christ Himself returned to put down His final enemies and give His saints their kingdom inheritance. They had only a temporary and partial “pledge, earnest or seal†of that inheritance from 30 to AD 70. The great commission given to the twelve apostles was completed by the time Jesus returned at the end of that Jewish age. -Edward E. Stevens[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]QUESTION: Did Jesus Christ return in AD 70 without fanfare?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ANSWER: I wouldn't exactly call the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 an event “without fanfare.†Josephus mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,†commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.†Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism†and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.†(Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.†(Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds. -Edward E. Stevens[/FONT]

 

[Lehigh3]

Here you go warhorse (regarding 1Thess. 4:17)
From preterism.com Q&As:
What about the Rapture? Were Christians not to be taken away from Earth before the return of Jesus?

Answer: Not at all. In fact, the word "rapture" does not appear anywhere in the Scripture, nor does the Scripture teach the removal of believers before the return of Christ. The only Bible passage advocating something close to the idea of a "rapture" is 1 Thessalonians 4:17:
"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." The context of this passage is key to understanding it properly. Here Paul is teaching the Thessalonians regarding believers who have already died, and the order of the Resurrection. It appears that some of the Thessalonians were concerned and worried that those who were physically alive would get to experience the return of Christ before those who were already dead (see verse 15). However Paul is trying to calm their fears and puts forth the order of the events which they (the first century believers) would experience:

1. God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus (verse 14)
2. Those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep (verse 15)
3. The Lord will descend (verse 16)
4. Then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with those who are dead (verse 17)

Paul is doing nothing more here than teaching the order of the Resurrection and how events would transpire when Christ would return. All believers (those physically alive, and those physically dead) would together be caught up into Christ's presence and be brought to life through the restoration of God's presence to their lives.
Furthermore, there are clear time statements which place this passage in a first-century context. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 clearly teaches that Paul was expecting the return of Christ to take place within his lifetime or within the lifetime of his audience. The same goes for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where Paul writes "we who are alive and remain," referring to first century believers, not Christians living in the 21st century.
The conclude, the issuse of the Rapture while not complex, can be confusing and difficult to deal with for several reasons:

• The word "rapture" never appears anywhere in the Bible.
• The concept of a "rapture" has only been recently (within the last two hundred or so years) created by Dispensational theologians.
• The idea of a "rapture" implies that believers would be taken away before the Second Coming. This is dirrectly in opposition to Christ comparing his return with "the days of Noah" - see Matthew 24. In the days of Noah, the unrighteous were taken away by the waters of the flood, and the righteous remained and were saved - this is in clear opposition with the teachings of a "rapture."
• The doctrine of "rapture" is based on a single Bible passage, which is 1 Thess. 4:13-17. This passage does not seem to teach a physical taking away of believers (as in believers' bodies floating up into the skies). Such an even would be unfeasable for several reasons:
  • It would serve no purpose to believers and it would contradict the prayer of Jesus in John 17:15: "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."
  • It does not spiritually benefit believers. Salvation is a spiritual matter, in that it does not necessarily involve one's physical delivery from danger, rather it involves a spiritual delivery from eternal destruction into eternal presence of God.

The "rapture" should therefore be equated with the "resurrection" of believers which come into the presence (parousia) of Christ, bringing life, justice and deliverance to all.


If one is disappointed that it was the firstfruit believers that were resurrected-

One should find comfort knowing that Daniel had to wait for Christ's redemption & new covenant before he was raised from sheol or hades in AD70 to his inheritance.
But since then, when believers die, they go into the immediate presence of the Lord in heaven & not have to wait for some un- Biblical time as "the end of history."

We receive our inheritance upon our physical death.

Praise God!

 

[theLords]

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


Spiritual resurrection is primary, first in fact and import. It sad that some folks would use this reality to deny the reality of bodily resurrection. We are blessed to hear;

'Why seek ye the living among the dead'?

The tomb is forever empty and the Throne is forever filled.

Thank you. I had 1 John in mind when you said that. I've read that verse so many times and yet your words really hit me in a new way.

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, the nonsense stops here! I'm locking the thread so I can clean it out.

I may or may not reopen it. It seems we keep swaying from the OP and now somehow, we've interjects personal feelings into the subject.

We all really need to address topics and not members. Lets stop making things so personal all the time.