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The Pros & Cons of Preterism

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Imagination at work again from the futurists!

The "knowledge" that would increase in Israel's "end times" of their old covenant would be knowledge of the gospel. Not any other imaginations of knowledge.

Satan would be "bound" at the beginning of the millennium (beginning when Christ bound the strongman) so the nations could receive the gospel of the kingdom.

Christ & the apostles said His return was imminent & in His generation-
Futurists don't seem to believe the Text AND they cannot prove why they think or believe (in Scripture) Christ's return is still future!!!

Can you prove it? Yet Preterists can & praise God for His truth in fulfilling the prophecies as He did!

How can we not prove it? All ive done is shown continuosly why He hasent returned yet, you disregard it because you believe what you believe, in such case how can one prove something if the other doesnt take an open mind to it?
You cant, I cant force you, noone can, it's your choice, so stop acting like your the supreme cheese of understanding when your biased completely towards your own understading, then your pious enough to be snarky about others who dont hold your view like they are doing something wrong because you dont get it, you dont get it because you dont want to get it, if you had to get it, you would be wrong on what you hold too now, and then you would have to contend with your own personal pride and how to overcome it to believe something you refuse to accept right now.

So how about you tell me why He has come, what has been fulfilled?
He said "soon" so what about the actual fullfillments? where are they?
The Holy Spirit through Paul said that when He returns i would be changed just like Him, raised up as He was raised up, incorporating a body just likeHe incorporated, so where is that if He came almost 2,000 yers ago?
It's not the Heper, the Helper is a Helper and is the reason why the kingdom is on earth in that sence becaue the Helpe is a part of the Kingdom, the Helper is of God and that iwhy the kingdom is with us, but ou inheritance isnt actually here, were being helped in promise that we may arise to our inheritance on the last day, which isnt a last day, which you take literally, yet you take everything else spiritually, you pick and choose to suit yourself.

Heres why its called the last day : Because from that point on we will never be seperated from our inheritance, we will forever be with the Lord, the second death has NO power over those He gathers to Him on that day.

Wanna know when Satans bound? Satan will be bound at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, he's actually still in heaven, not even kicked out yet.
He'll be kicked out and then he'll know his time is short and when he does if im alive ill probably be brutally slaughtered infront of people an made a mockery of, not because of who I am but because of who i believe in and Who recedes in me.
I wont be the only one, many of those in Him during that time will certianly be slaughtered like sheep to the butcher.

Well the jews in 70 A.D were slaughtered, no they werent, most fled and those ultra concervatives that got trapped didnt get slaughtered, they killed themselves.
But what about the christians? O they were forewarned by the Romans and told to leave so they scattered, but the saints should be slaughtered??
What about the Gentiles christians? certianly they were also christians in the exact same manner as the Jews? yes, but shouldnt they have been slaughtered also? Yes.
So what happened to them? not much because they were Romans and Greeks for the most part, Rome didnt do much of anything to the Gentiles.
But isnt the Dragon supposed to get angry that he didnt get the Jews and go after the rest of her offspring that keep His word? Yep, he sure is, er was..
So how come that didnt happen in 70 A.D?
Im not quite sure, so im hoping you can tell me, because I know most of what you know, i was once standing in your shoes, as i stood in the rapture shoes at one point also, and i stood in a "futureist" veiw wrongfully also at some point, until I finally figured it out, I cant figure it out, who am I to learn of God when God gives the knowledge and understanding? not Matt. But i was persistent of my pride, so He waited quite a long time for me, glory to God.

So anyways, I'm hoping you will actually take the time to read what i wrote, understand it and actually answer my questions, most people dont even reply when i post pure scripture regarding the issue, and if people do answer they usually answer like whiny little spoiled kids who spit at you and kick dirt at you when they dont get thier own way.
So Im hoping you will be different and yes I displayed my frustration in this letter to you and everyone else who views it because it is frustrating to watch all of you bicker at each other over things none of you could even possibly know unless that knowledge and understanding comes directly from Him, you cant study scripture for 20 years and be an expert, go to school somewhere and be an expert, read others studies all your life and be an expert, pick up the Word and claim yourself an expert, everyone in the Body has gifts and He gives them accordingly, and nothing regarding knowing Him comes from anyone but Him so i dont care if you 67 years old or 12, if He gives you understanding, His grace is upon that person and they are in authority under His grace to supply, to give that which He has given His servant because that servant loves Him and loves you so he is going to give what he has been given by Him.
So you can act all you want and spit and claw and kick dirt at whomever He gives understanding all you want, but that person loves God and you and will not move regarding truth when it is given, because its intimate, its Him and you do not want to step away, and trust me when He shows you truth, you dont question it, u sit there in awe of what your seeing and how you never saw that before no matter how hard you looked, so dont be pissy with one another over scriptures, i dont care what veiw you hold, simply show each other scriptures, talk about it in a loving manner and if it starts to get dicy, back off, relax, pray to the Lord and if you can continue, continue, His grace will come upon His, maybe not today or tomorrow or the next day, but it will, this I know.

The one that quouted, you were a perfect example of what im talking about so dont take it the wrong way, im not perfect either and ive done exactly what you are doing and may very well do it again in the future, may it not be so through the Lord, dont take it personal like im attacking who you are, im attacking the flesh, and yes it is harsh, but the truth is, because we have to let go of ourselves in order to accept it, we have to admit who we are and what we do, and that just plain sucks, but its true, and im not different than you, you and i are one through Adam, that is were of the flesh, so im hoping you understand, it was just a perfect example of our flesh to qoute and was the closest.
May the Lord Jesus come quickly that we may inhabit our true bodies through Him and put away corruption through His glory.

Grace to you peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
OK, I thought you might have a little something to prove that Jesus hadn't returned as He said "soon" in Scripture.

Those who lived through the great tribulation in the 1st century knew the resurrection was spiritual AND they believed what Christ said about His kingdom not "coming with observation."

They knew & believed Christ's words about the fulfillment of all things written (Luke 21:22, etc)

Those who read the Scripture after the fact- got it wrong bc they didn't witness the His coming in the glory cloud above Jerusalem. The nature of His coming is what the orthodox church got wrong- & perpetuated.

Where do you see Christ's return in Revelation, btw? Is it not in Rev.19? And, did He or would He literally come on a horse with a literal sword coming out of His mouth? Think about it. That is symbolism & not literal. The "eyes" of understanding prophecy are spiritual.

Preterism got it right:

What is Preterism

Grace & Peace to you also.
 
Sam i dont think i made myself clear.

100 years a go Folks thought the same as your saying...

look we have horseless carriages!
And we can talk to Aunt Bessie in Ohio!
Wow have you seen the new trains?

Each generation knows more than the last.
 
OK, I thought you might have a little something to prove that Jesus hadn't returned as He said "soon" in Scripture.

Those who lived through the great tribulation in the 1st century knew the resurrection was spiritual AND they believed what Christ said about His kingdom not "coming with observation."

They knew & believed Christ's words about the fulfillment of all things written (Luke 21:22, etc)

Those who read the Scripture after the fact- got it wrong bc they didn't witness the His coming in the glory cloud above Jerusalem. The nature of His coming is what the orthodox church got wrong- & perpetuated.

Where do you see Christ's return in Revelation, btw? Is it not in Rev.19? And, did He or would He literally come on a horse with a literal sword coming out of His mouth? Think about it. That is symbolism & not literal. The "eyes" of understanding prophecy are spiritual.

Preterism got it right:

What is Preterism

Grace & Peace to you also.

Its not spiritual at all in the way you speak (and by that im not saying it isnt spiritual as would be clarified by the scriptures i have given you if you read them), as Christ rose so shall all of His at His coming, look at what we are told by the Holy Spirit through Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:29-58
All of that is about the literal inheritance, which is the resurrection just as He rose we will raise through Him.
The kingdom is in each of His, the saints, because the Holy Spirit, the Helper resides in all of His, thats why the kingdom is here, but its not actually come, it will when He returns and we are resurrected because we will never be seperated from Him and the kingdom will never end, its forever and ever.Amen.

Your talking silly with me, you know i know exactly what is being said regarding the sword of mouth ext and so does mostly everyone else.

They didnt live through the great tribulation, it hasnt happened, Jerusalem simply got ransacked as many many other countries have and will be ransacked, it was nothing new under the son, the "great tribulation" hasent happened.
I wouldnt even be surprised if it got taken over again, this time if it did it seems the arabs would do it not the romans, only difference.
When one claims himself as God and the world believes it and follows after him and puts him in thier hearts as God, then were in the great tribulation and there is much that will happen before and after that time, and Gods wrath will be poured out when that happens, not before.
It definetly did not happen in 70 A.D there was no worshipping in the world, in fact there wasnt even a world ruler over everyone, there were empires just like today, major players in no difference than what we are now.
America is like a 70 A.D Rome, has alot of world power but doesnt rule over the world, in fact alot of the world doesnt even like America, and im sure alot of the world didnt like Rome in those days either.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Its not spiritual at all in the way you speak (and by that im not saying it isnt spiritual as would be clarified by the scriptures i have given you if you read them), as Christ rose so shall all of His at His coming, look at what we are told by the Holy Spirit through Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:29-58
All of that is about the literal inheritance, which is the resurrection just as He rose we will raise through Him.
The kingdom is in each of His, the saints, because the Holy Spirit, the Helper resides in all of His, thats why the kingdom is here, but its not actually come, it will when He returns and we are resurrected because we will never be seperated from Him and the kingdom will never end, its forever and ever.Amen.

Your talking silly with me, you know i know exactly what is being said regarding the sword of mouth ext and so does mostly everyone else.

They didnt live through the great tribulation, it hasnt happened, Jerusalem simply got ransacked as many many other countries have and will be ransacked, it was nothing new under the son, the "great tribulation" hasent happened.
I wouldnt even be surprised if it got taken over again, this time if it did it seems the arabs would do it not the romans, only difference.
When one claims himself as God and the world believes it and follows after him and puts him in thier hearts as God, then were in the great tribulation and there is much that will happen before and after that time, and Gods wrath will be poured out when that happens, not before.
It definetly did not happen in 70 A.D there was no worshipping in the world, in fact there wasnt even a world ruler over everyone, there were empires just like today, major players in no difference than what we are now.
America is like a 70 A.D Rome, has alot of world power but doesnt rule over the world, in fact alot of the world doesnt even like America, and im sure alot of the world didnt like Rome in those days either.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was describing the "body of Christ" as spiritual, it is not literal. We started in the flesh & the last is spiritual- not the other way around. Did you read the Preterist link?

America is like AD70 Rome only using one's imagination. All prophecy ended in AD70.

The only prophecy which carries on is "the increase of His government" Those that are added to the kingdom of God (& light) continually.

And yes, they (who the Bible was spoken & written to directly) did go through the great tribulation. Some escaped the city & were saved (like the Noah reference)

It's over. Christ & the saints got the victory (Dan.7) - For us too! Praise God!

We are under grace, not the law anymore for a long time.

Grace & Peace to you.
 
Sam i dont think i made myself clear.

100 years a go Folks thought the same as your saying...

look we have horseless carriages!
And we can talk to Aunt Bessie in Ohio!
Wow have you seen the new trains?

Each generation knows more than the last.
In the last 150 years knowledge and travel has increased every decade at an incredible rate, before that it was very slow and almost non existant.When we look at the history of the human race and rate it according to knowledge, then the last 150 years would be an incredible increase in knowledge,also the angel told Daniel that in the latter days knowledge and travel would increase...therefore it seems reasonable that we are in the latter days. The human race traveled by horse for thousands of years, only in the last 120 years has the horse been replaced with the car. My point is that we are in a unique time in the history of the human race according to knowledge and travel.
 
Paul was describing the "body of Christ" as spiritual, it is not literal. We started in the flesh & the last is spiritual- not the other way around. Did you read the Preterist link?

America is like AD70 Rome only using one's imagination. All prophecy ended in AD70.

The only prophecy which carries on is "the increase of His government" Those that are added to the kingdom of God (& light) continually.

And yes, they (who the Bible was spoken & written to directly) did go through the great tribulation. Some escaped the city & were saved (like the Noah reference)

It's over. Christ & the saints got the victory (Dan.7) - For us too! Praise God!

We are under grace, not the law anymore for a long time.

Grace & Peace to you.

Yes it is literal, was Christ literally on earth? was He literally raised and wasnt the spiritual body after the raising so simular to the natural that they didnt even recognize Jesus? Yes.
Being in the body of Christ now is all who have His Spirit in them, the Helper and will be raised on the last day into that spiritual body, which is actually quite normal looking except its incorruptible, one is flesh from the first Adam of dust and the other is of the second Adam which is Christ.
You are nowhere near the condition He will make His on His return, your corruptible, your flesh, as am I, we are not perfected, becoming perfect is when we are raised into Him at the gathering and that is what we inherit and that is when we will never be seperated from Him because that is when we are made perfect, we go from our tent/pilgramige on this world being strangers in it, to moving into our home which was created in the first place to be with Him.

No.

Prophecy never ends, ever. Prophecy is the Word of God and shall never end, it is forever and ever. Amen.
Revelations has not ended and it never will because His will never be seperated from Him, ever, therefore the Word of God will never end because He never ends.
When I am raised at His second coming and inherit the kingdom in which i am a part of now through Christ Jesus i will never be taken from Him, ever, the Word shall forever be with me.

They didnt go through that tribulation your referencing in relation to Revelation and regarding the man of lawlessness and one day you will know this for a fact.

Close your eyes and deny Him all you want, it isnt going to stop it.
Prophecy will be fullfilled and will continue to be fullfilled forever and ever, this earth and this flesh will pass away, but He will never pass away.
You can hold tight to your kingdom its your choice, but ill stay within His kingdom and know Him and the hope He has promised.

The law actually has nothing with what were discussing, Revelations isnt about the law, its about the hearts of each man and what will become of them in those days, it isnt a pretty picture, thats why anyone who knows Him does not desire for those days because we know what will occur in the hearts of men.
The sacrifice will be taken away.
The abomination of desolation will be standing where it ought not.
Gods wrath will be poured out.
The Lord shall return for His and we will recieve our inheritance through Him and shall forever be with the Lord. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
"Many shall run to and fro," & "As when they persecute you in this city, flee to another, for verily I say to you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel until the Son of man be come.(Matt.10:23)

1. Both scriptures look to those who will pass up & down in the world with the gospel of Christ.
2. They refer to a time when this would characteristic of the age when the church was 1st born, to those years when the apostles went into all the world to preach the gospel, & train others who would do the same afterwards.

"And knowledge will be increased" The angel means that by men going forth into all the world to preach the gospel, knowledge would increase. This would be one of the features of this age (which was the age to come). And this would be the means by which the gospel would spread into all the world.
 
Nice piece of info - but it isn't in Scripture & is irrelevant.:thumbsup
Preterism has a legitimate position concerning the time factor, however the rest of what they believe is so far out into orbit that it makes the doctrine of preterism look ridiculous.
 
guys remember there is a big difference between full preterest and orthodox preterest.

In a nut shell

full preterest do not believe Christ will return

orthodox preterist believe He will..
 
Preterism has a legitimate position concerning the time factor

One doesn't have to be a preterist to take Christ and His apostles at their words:

{7}The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

{1} God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, {2}in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."
Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:18 (NASB)

{39} and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. {40} "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matthew 13:39-40 (NASB)

{26} Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9:26 (NASB)

{8} You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:8 (NASB)

{28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

I'm willing to give these men the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were writing when they wrote these words.

Why aren't you? :chin
 
guys remember there is a big difference between full preterest and orthodox preterest.

In a nut shell

full preterest do not believe Christ will return

orthodox preterist believe He will..

I believe the full preterist would argue that He has already returned in 70 AD, but that His return was in judgment upon Jerusalem.

My view is expressed best in Matthew 23:37-39:

{37}"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

{38}
"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate [literally a ruined wasteland]!

{39}
"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Matthew 23:37-39 (NASB)

I think this is pretty specific. Christ won't be returning until Israel recognizes Him as Messiah and welcomes Him back.

They've got to swallow 2,000 years of pride before that happens. I hope for all our sakes it's soon. :pray
 
One doesn't have to be a preterist to take Christ and His apostles at their words:



I'm willing to give these men the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were writing when they wrote these words.

Why aren't you? :chin
Because Jesus has not returned to gather the saints, it is as simple as that. The twin pillars of the gospel is that Jesus came to die for the sins of the people and that He would return to gather the church. It is an historic and present fact that since the church begin at Pentecost it has remained on the earth. There was a false teaching in the NT that the resurrection had already occured,in other words do not be looking for the return of Christ,"concerning the truth have erred saying that the resurrection is past already". So the spirit that attempts to keep christians from looking for the return of Christ was already active in the first century."Whoso transgresses and abides not in the doctrine of Christ does not have God".
You know there are people who handle snakes and every attempt to talk to them fails because they can quote a scripture where Jesus said that "they(believers)shall take up serpents". Yes the NT writers made it appear that they believed that Christ return was very near,however they did NOT set a date and say it had to happen in the first century,Jesus said to Peter concerning John,"what is it to you if I let him tarry till I come". Let us speak plainly,Jesus left the impression that POSSIBILITY that John would live to see the return of Christ and not die,BUT JOHN DID DIE. God has allowed the church to believe that Christ could return in every generation,but we today know that Christ would not return for at least 1900 years,why did God allow the church to believe that Christ could return in their time when it was not to be...only God knows that one.
 
Because Jesus has not returned to gather the saints, it is as simple as that.

Define "gather" and "saints" in the context of all the other verses I cited. Don't pull these words out of context!
 
Define "gather" and "saints" in the context of all the other verses I cited. Don't pull these words out of context!
I am so sorry Mr Stormcrow, but if I have to define for you the words "gather" and "saints"then it is all over,let the fat lady sing.
 
You know there are people who handle snakes and every attempt to talk to them fails because they can quote a scripture where Jesus said that "they(believers)shall take up serpents".
Yet I cite more than a dozen verses saying the same thing from different NT writers, and you equate that with 1 verse pulled out of context???

In the meantime, you're doing EXACTLY what the snake-handling crowd does: looking at one verse and pulling it completely out of context to justify a doctrine that couldn't otherwise be supported! You don't see the bitter irony in that???

Yes the NT writers made it appear that they believed that Christ return was very near,however they did NOT set a date and say it had to happen in the first century
So Peter, Paul, James, Matthew, and John all wrote what they did for the sake of appearances??? :screwloose

They didn't have to set a date! They were told specifically that no one would know the hour except the Father! But when you look at their entire body of work, and the history that surrounded it, you can arrive at no other logical conclusion: these men were told to expect Christ's return in their lifetimes by none other than Jesus Christ Himself, but you know better than they what He meant???

Hubris be thy name! :o

You're doing EXACTLY what the Jews of Jesus' day were doing when He came as a suffering servant while they were expecting a conquering deliverer! And you're doing it because you see the words Christ spoke, but you're using them to defend a doctrine instead of letting His words speak for themselves!

That's not the way to understand this stuff. :shame
 
if I have to define for you the words "gather" and "saints"then it is all over

Yes, I fully expect someone engaged in defending a position to define the terms they use. I want to know what you mean by these terms because I suspect they mean something significantly different to you than what Christ meant by them.

The only way to know that, however, is for you - in the name of intellectual honesty - to define these terms, since they seem to be the lynchpin on which your whole eschatology hangs.

If you can't do that, then we have nothing further to discuss.
 
Yes, I fully expect someone engaged in defending a position to define the terms they use. I want to know what you mean by these terms because I suspect they mean something significantly different to you than what Christ meant by them.

The only way to know that, however, is for you - in the name of intellectual honesty - to define these terms, since they seem to be the lynchpin on which your whole eschatology hangs.

If you can't do that, then we have nothing further to discuss.
Hes just busy looking for that quote in which Jesus says hes coming back to set up his kingdom.
 
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