The rapture of the Church

[turnorburn]

Say Coop

In 1972 The Late Great Planet Earth was real popular in the jail where I was a phone trustee. I accepted most of what the book said but the rapture didn't make sense

After my release I met Jesus, believe me or no meeting him is an event you will never forget. My next step was purchasing a bible because I wanted to get to know him. Before I met him the bible made no sense, no sense at all, the written word was dead to me. He made it come alive, and now its fun.

The wedding, that is another event that I have no way of knowing how it will be prepared, to find out how I'm going to have to wait just like everybody else that will be there. :

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,
It is clear that you believe what you have said, (even though it appears that you have a difficult time keeping your belief on track. Here are some things that may help you to untwist this belief that you have spent so much time convincing yourself. You should start over.
:smt102

Here are a couple of rules that you seem to have ignored, or at the very least misused.

6.When ever possible interpret the scripture literally, unless the literal interpretation renders the scripture absurd.
7.Be careful when applying a symbolic or figurative meaning. This opens the door to many possible false interpretations.

You are to quick to jump to symbolic meanings of scripture. I understand that the subject we have been discussing uses lots of symbolism, but you have went ther when you did not need to.

:smt111

 

[lecoop]

Finally! Whew!

Coop

You didn't even get what I said...wow...you are a piece of work. I have never met anyone like you. So wrong on so many points of the Bible. You should return to the scripture and keep studying...maybe you will get it someday.

"So wrong" just because I don't believe your theories? You still have not found those lost sheep, and you still have the church missing the wedding - so you have little to talk about! When Jesus returns on the white horse, he is returning from the wedding. Guess that verse went right over your head, as so many have. The meaning of "firstfruits" seems to have gone over your head to. If you bother to look up the other times "firstfruits" is used in the New Testament, you will find that in almost every case, it is speaking of something already happened, not something out in the future. For example, " Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ." Epaenetus was not going to be something in the future! No, he already got born again, and so became the first person of many, to come to the Lord at Achaia. Therefore, when the 144,000 were declared "firstfruits," it means they were already in heaven, not going to be some time in the future.

Oh, just so you know, the Greek word "protos" for "first" as in "first resurrection" in Revelation 20, has been translated as "chief," as "first day," as "former" and seven other times as other words, as well as "first." Not quite as solid as "concrete" after all. Neither have you addressed the "great tribulation" that Jesus would throw those at the church at Thyatira into, if they did not repent of fornication. You have decided not to discuss why you feel so free to rearrange John's chronology. Hmm. "So wrong on so many points of the Bible..."

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop
Assumption, not based on scripture. The 144,000 will be raptured at about the same time as the abomination takes place. There are seen in heaven soon after. Therefore, what is there to resist? The mark will not at that time have been established. I guess more rearraging.

Please tell me when and where you see the 144,ooo being raptured?(scripture please)And where do you see them in Heaven?

Revelation 14:1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Si'-on, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

This "Lamb" is Jesus Christ. Christ has returned at this time, and is standing on Mount Sion with his saints. Earilier we saw one "that looked like a Lamb", yet spoke like a dragon, and he was Satan. So Christ has returned here, and is with the 144,000 sealed, of Chapter seven. Remember that the 144,000 sealed of the tribes never went anywhere, but remained here on earth during the entire time of the Antichrist. Not one of these saints yielded to Satan, nor took his name, nor his number. They did not take the "Mark of the Beast" because they had "their Fathers name in their foreheads". They knew how to identify Satan, and that the first Messiah was the fake.

That marking was placed in their minds back in chapter seven, when God told the "four Spirits of God" to hold their position, until this group could be sealed.

Did you know that the rider of the first white horse is satan, the one that looked like the Lamb?

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The rider of this white horse is not the rider of the white horse who comes with a rainbow around his head, and a rainbow around the throne he leaves. This "bow" in the Greek is a cheap fabric, or imitation, In the Greek it's called "toxon". His grandeur will be cheap, yet convincing all of those who are looking for the rider of the "first horse" to fly them out of here. The Antichrist will offer them all they desire in fulfilling their wishes.

Again, the timing is off. These scriptures in the Olivet discourse are speaking of times in the age of grace, long before the antichrist will be on the scene. Yes, I will agree that Satan will be behind these things, but not the beast of Revelation. These events, such as Mt 24:9, are in our past. Jesus had not yet gotten to the 70th week in His narrative: "the end is not yet."

Again you must follow the subject,the subject of Matthew 24 does not change from the time of this question

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

This is the subject for the whole chapter,now let's look at 24:9

Matthew 24:9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

This is not in our past,this is yet to happen,do you understand what is happening here,this is the same thing written of in Mark.This event marks the next time that the Holy Spirit will speak through us.And trust me it has not happened yet.

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

When this time comes into being in the very near future, it will not be the elect of God that does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit speaking in and through the mouths of His elect. Every one of these individuals will be delivered before these false councils before the final day of this earth age. This is why Peter would say to the people in Acts 2, on Pentecost day; "This is that which was spoken of by Joel the Prophet."

Acts 2:16: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;"

We can read this prophecy in Joel 2:28-32. These sons and daughters shall speak in a cloven tongue, as recorded in Acts 2:6; meaning that the language that they shall speak in will need no interpreter, for every one that hears will hear in their native tongue of the dialect of the neighborhood they grew up in. This is the way that the gospel will go forth in the last days, for it is the evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit. These sons and daughters will speak, as stated in Mark 13:11, but whatsoever words they do speak in that hour, it will be the Holy Spirit that speaks through them.

Acts 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days,' saith God, `I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and you old men shall dream dreams:"

Acts 2:18 "And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

Acts 2:19 "And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:"

Acts 2:20 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"

Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' "

When the sons and daughter speak, it will be heard in every language and dialect in the world. This will not come from the mind of those people, but those people shall be willing witnesses that allow God to speak directly through them to the people. Thus the true gospel of Christ will be spoken.

Can you not see what is happening here?

Revelation 6:12 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

Now about the beast,do you know who the two beast are mentioned in Revelations?

The first beast is a political system,that will receive the deadly wound that will be healed by the second beast who is satan himself pretending to be Christ,again the rider of the first white horse.
These events are not in our past.

 

[n2thelight]

Coop
At this point in Onelove's narrative, He is still in the "beginning of sorrows." Now he has jumped to the middle of the week. The two witnesses show up just before the abomination event, and testify for the next 1260 days. Therefore, they are put to death, 3 1/2 days before the end of the 70th week, and rise from the dead on the day "marked" by the 7th vial as the end of the 70th week. It is quite likely that they rise at the same time that all the old testament saints rise. (Yes, there is another earthquake at that time. What a coincidence!)

The old Testament saints do not rise at this time,why?because they are already in Heaven,
Let me document this for you

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Now this is long before the two witnesses are killed.

Onelove seems to agree with this timing:

This is not a rapture only the two witnesses are called to heaven,and as shown above those that have died in the past are already in heaven

However, next Onelove writes of the 7th trumpet, as if it is minutes before Jesus' return. What happened to chapters 12-19? Again, more rearranging!

What really happens is that When John is introduced to the the two witnesses, probably 3 1/2 days before the abomination, he then takes the readers through their entire 1260 days, and finishes with their story. Then John goes right back to the middle of the week, where he was before he brings up the two witnesses. Therefore, the 7th trumpet is not at the very end of the week, but at the midpoint. The entire 42 months of the antichrist will follow this 7th trumpet, before Jesus comes back.

It is minutes before Christ returns,within the hour after the two witnesses rise actually

Revelation 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

Now pay attention to the next verse

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

This is the same quake written of in Zech

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This will happen on "the day of the Lord". God will shake the earth and send fire and brimstone upon it. The earthquakes will flatten the cities to where not one stone will stand upon another. Those two great mountains will shake, and the mount of Olives will split. All prophecies concerning Christ return include Mount Zion, and the Mount of Olives will be fulfilled. This is where Christ's feet will touch the earth, when He returns.

This is the second advent,there is no rapture whatsoever in between the first and second advents.

Revelation 11:14 "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

42 months will not follow this,I just showed you from scripture that Christ returns within the hour after the two witnesses rise,and they would have been preaching the entire time that satan is here
Do the math,how long will the two witnesses be preaching

Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

And how long will satan be here?

Revelation 11:2 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gen'-tiles [nations]: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Remember that "months" are in reference to Satan and his times and the children of the night, while "days and years" are in reference to God and the children of light.

The truth is, they are in spirit form as they descend from heaven. Always remember, we are a spirit being, but for now live in a natural body. So as they (the spirit men) are descending with Jesus, God resurrects their decayed body, and makes it into a resurrection body, flesh and bone, and they are once again joined to their body. Plain and simple.

Never again will we be flesh and bones,as a matter of fact we were never meant to be made flesh,it was only because of satan that we were,for had satan not rebelled we never would have been (made flesh)

 

[n2thelight]

Coop
Question for the readers: what happened to Jesus' body?

Christ body was transfigured

Matthew 17:2 "And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light."

Jesus Christ's transfiguration let these three disciples know that through the resurrection the flesh body will be transfigured, rather then left. These three have witnessed before the fact that Christ's body will be transfigured. Meaning that the flesh shall not be left behind, whereby the unbelievers could say, He didn't go anywhere. There is the flesh.

Every time a person dies there is an immediate removal of the soul back to the Heavenly Father, and the flesh is left to rot. The unbeliever simply can't understand that because the body is laying there on the slab. The persons beautiful spiritual body returns to God that gave it.

In this case, there had to be a transfiguration to stop the talk, and have witnesses to the fact, so no one could deny that He arose.

Now let me help you out with the body

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

When Christ returns,Heaven will be here on earth ,here is what you say

So as they (the spirit men) are descending with Jesus, God resurrects their decayed body, and makes it into a resurrection body, flesh and bone, and they are once again joined to their body. Plain and simple.

But here is what scripture says

I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Paul is saying that you can count on this for a fact. Flesh and blood cannot be part of the Kingdom of God. Your flesh body is going to drive you to sin and that is its nature. When you are under the nature of your flesh body, it will not allow your inner man to control you. There is no way that flesh and blood can become part of the kingdom of God. As long as you are in your flesh body, you simply cannot keep from breaking part of the laws of God. Your mind is incapable of retaining all the law, and applying it to every moment of your life. This is why we have repentance, and it is also why flesh and blood will not be here when Jesus Christ's kingdom is established here on earth for the Millennium kingdom.

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies within each of us. We have our physical body, which is made up of flesh and blood, and we have our spiritual body which is called our soul. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body or soul body that houses or spirit will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only one those souls that have eternal live, and did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast.

So the flesh body must be put aside before we put on our incorruptible body that will not age through the entire Millennium age. The Word "Mortal" again means "liable to die". The object of this verse is the body, and the corruptible flesh body must be changed into the body that doesn't grow old.

 

[turnorburn]

If a picture says 1000 words what does this say, a bit OT but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGLPADW_kUw

Funny from here it looks more like your the one that's painted himself in the corner, three of us have given you enough concrete evidence that most people would have been more than satisfied with. So at this stage your just..

on a mission...

YOu are absolutely right about the mission! (Maybe the most correct thing you have posted!) I am here to dispel false doctrines, plain and simple. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this your mission also?

You might know, I have been though the same thing with prewrathers: they were probably more sure of that they were right, than you are, but they were just as wrong. The truth of the end times scenario must fit ALL he pieces of the puzzle into place. The post trib scenario fails to do this. It cannot put people in flesh and blood bodies into the millennial kingdom. Neither can it provide the sheep for the sheep and goat judgement. I guess that is why some think that this judgement of the nations will be after the 1000 years. It is the only way they could find the sheep! Then there is the problem of getting the church backwards in time to the marriage. Of course, if the church is not the bride, nor the guests, there is no problem. Unless I missed it, you have never responded to these monumental problems with your theories. Neither has anyone recently responded with good, "concrete" evidence why they feel that John wrote things out of order. I had some great discussions with Vic many months ago on this. In my mind, one must have a very good reason to decide that John's chronology is wrong. It makes good sense, in the very order that it is written, so I have not felt the need to rearrange it.

I have been through many disagreements with pretribbers, simply because they want to have the rapture at Rev. 4:1, and have the first seal the antichrist, which to me is a pitiful exogesis of scripture. As for your "concrete evidence," it is concrete only in your minds. For example, when we started, Turnorburn was claiming that the rapture was man-made. I think he meant by that the typical pretrib rapture doctrine, but the way it was written eleminated any kind of resurrection of the dead in Christ, the new bodies for those alive in Christ, and the meeting in the air. Somehow, I think he must believe these things, since Paul made it clear that it will happen.

I really have appreciated Turnorburns pictures; as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words! Well done, Turnorburn!

I have been accused of believing "the Hollywood, left behind series." I want to set the record straight: I have yet to read even one of these books! I did read "the late Great Planet Earth," many years ago, and I have read some of Grant Jeffry's books, such as Armegeddon. I read Van Kampen and Rosenthal on Prewrath, more just for curiousity, for at that time, I had diligently studied the end times for myself. Neither did I come to my current beliefs, because I was taught that as I grew up. Unfortunately, most of the doctrines I grew up with were wrong, and over the years, through some agony, I have abandoned them one by one, when I learned the truth. I thank God, they knew enough to get me born again! I believe what I now believe, mostly because I have a close relationship with the Holy Spirit, and have been willing to wait on Him for answers. To be sure, many times I had to form new beliefs when He straightened out my thinking. For example, which of the four horsemen rides alone? It is there, in black and white, yet I read over it many times, and never saw it. Neither did it ever come to my mind, why Jesus was not in the first vision of the throne room, in chapter four. So thanks to the Holy Spirit, I have formed my beliefs, not from hollywood, and not from books, but from personal study.

If anyone wants to find the sheep that your theories have lost, please, help me see where you find the sheep. Likewise, if one of you could please explain how you plan on being a part of the wedding, I want to see how you do that. I have read report after report, probably five or six, of people within the last year or so, that have had a vision of heaven, and have seen the tables all set for the marriage supper. The first two or three saw angels working quickly preparing, but the last two or three have seen the preparations completed! Things in heaven are all done: every mansion is built, and heaven is ready for the church, right down to every name plate for the marriage supper. We should be looking up, ready at any moment.

Coop

 

[golfjack]

Turn, I presume that you are post-trib. I am pretty sure that Catholic's, Calvanists, Lutherans, Reformers, and United Pentacostals are also post-trib. Do you subscribe to any of these denominations? You know, most Evanglicals are pre-trib. I was just wondering where you are coming from.


Peace, Golfjack

 

[GraceBwithU]

A.

When Jesus returns on the white horse, he is returning from the wedding. Guess that verse went right over your head, as so many have

Rev 19:7-11
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
KJV

The time has come, (the time is at hand) He now must gather the bride from the earth.

 

[GraceBwithU]

. Therefore, when the 144,000 were declared "firstfruits," it means they were already in heaven, not going to be some time in the future

Wrong again. Israel was chosen by God long before any of us. He is speaking of this not of them being in heaven. This statement has nothing to do with resurrection.

Rev 14:1
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
KJV

They were still on earth. Here is another firstfruit scripture.

1 Cor 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The coming that is being talked about is His second coming....the coming that the Bible talks about. Not the third coming, (the third one only exist in the brainwashed minds of the pre-tribers).

 

[turnorburn]

I'm at the point of being embarrassed for these denominations and what they have become. The first thing you'll hear from an unbeliever is, how much is it going to cost me, it seems all they ever do is ask for my money. Me? I was saved in a Pentecostal church 37 years ago, I've seen a lot of changes, mostly negative, it breaks my heart can you imagine how Jesus must feel. :
I preach Christ and him crucified, hell fire and brimstone the fate of the un-regenerated, no second chances, today is the day of salvation. Not tomorrow, not next week, not 5 minutes from now, if you should happen to meet me on the street you will do one of two things, become a Christian on the spot or realize where your headed if you don't. Did that answer your question? Oh!
I almost forgot, I'm an "after the party is over believer"

In His Service,
turnorburn

Turn, I presume that you are post-trib. I am pretty sure that Catholic's, Calvanists, Lutherans, Reformers, and United Pentacostals are also post-trib. Do you subscribe to any of these denominations? You know, most Evanglicals are pre-trib. I was just wondering where you are coming from.


Peace, Golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

The problem here, onelove, is that what you have posted is not a clear interpretation of what Paul was saying. It suggests a individual resurrection and transformation at death, which Scripture doesn't really support. There is a whole lot of interjection and assumption in the above interpretation. Unfortunately, much of mainstream Christianity reads it this way. :-?

Equating Ecclesiastes 12:7 to 2 Corinthians 5:8 actually contradicts your interpretation. No problem in referencing both verses together if one understands the intent of Ecclesiastes 12:7. Once you understand that, then it becomes clear that Paul is not speaking about something that is to happen "instantly", but at some point in the future... like the resurrection/transformation of believers.

I posted this in another thread, hope it helps.

[quote:039da]Since that time, spirits have either gone to hell or gone to heaven, depending on whether or not they knew Jesus and He knew them (they had become born of the Spirit).

That contradicts scripture:

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is Ruach in Hebrew and Pneuma in Greek and means breath, as in breath of life or breath of God. The "life force" that God breathes into man as he is created or conceived is what returns to Him. Don't confuse this with man's soul or actual essence or being. This is not a debate for here; it is best left to be debated in Apologetics.[/quote:039da]

 

[lecoop]

lecoop,
It is clear that you believe what you have said, (even though it appears that you have a difficult time keeping your belief on track. Here are some things that may help you to untwist this belief that you have spent so much time convincing yourself. You should start over.
:smt102

Please, please give me an example. I don't think I have been derailed at all. I just think you missunderstand most of what I right, because it does not "fit" on your doctrinal tree.

Here are a couple of rules that you seem to have ignored, or at the very least misused.

6.When ever possible interpret the scripture literally, unless the literal interpretation renders the scripture absurd.
7.Be careful when applying a symbolic or figurative meaning. This opens the door to many possible false interpretations.

You are to quick to jump to symbolic meanings of scripture. I understand that the subject we have been discussing uses lots of symbolism, but you have went ther when you did not need to.

Again, I want examples: something I can respond to. I guess you did not believe my rule:

Any doctrine that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong." : -))

Btw, would you please explain where you find the sheep for the judgement of the nations?

 

[turnorburn]

Say Coop, its begining to look as though we won't get anywhere using this approach. So what say we try this..


Atheist Paranoia

Joshua S. Black, when addressing an atheist said, "For people who don't believe in God, you guys sure are paranoid about something!!" How true that is. I have known many atheists, and I have found them to be totally committed to their negative cause. They are zealots, fanatics--who are serious, angry, hateful, and blasphemous towards something they don't believe in. And what's more, they spend their time gathering fuel for the fire of their hatred for God and those that love Him. They gather what they think is legitimate fuel, whether it is atrocities committed by hypocritical religions of history, or the horrors of the Inquisition (the Catholic church torturing Christians for their faith in Jesus). They even gather unintelligent and unscientific material. It qualifies for use because it fits their presuppositions. Any fuel will do, as long at it puts smoke between them and the God they hate "without cause." It was Jonathon Miller who said, "In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners." So, what is this "something" about which they are so paranoid? It is the same "something" that makes criminals paranoid, and it is that paranoia that fuels criminals to have a deep-rooted hatred for the police. It's not the individual officer they hate; it's what he stands for--civil law. And that's the root of the hatred that the atheist has for God and for those that represent Him. Once again, the Bible has said this all along. It hits the nail on its big and hard head: Romans 8:7: ". . because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot" (Amplified Bible). They hate the morality that God's Law demands. That's the fuel for their hostility.

Is this a fair assumption?

 

[lecoop]

Say Coop, its begining to look as though we won't get anywhere using this approach. So what say we try this..


Atheist Paranoia

Joshua S. Black, when addressing an atheist said, "For people who don't believe in God, you guys sure are paranoid about something!!" How true that is. I have known many atheists, and I have found them to be totally committed to their negative cause. They are zealots, fanatics--who are serious, angry, hateful, and blasphemous towards something they don't believe in. And what's more, they spend their time gathering fuel for the fire of their hatred for God and those that love Him. They gather what they think is legitimate fuel, whether it is atrocities committed by hypocritical religions of history, or the horrors of the Inquisition (the Catholic church torturing Christians for their faith in Jesus). They even gather unintelligent and unscientific material. It qualifies for use because it fits their presuppositions. Any fuel will do, as long at it puts smoke between them and the God they hate "without cause." It was Jonathon Miller who said, "In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners." So, what is this "something" about which they are so paranoid? It is the same "something" that makes criminals paranoid, and it is that paranoia that fuels criminals to have a deep-rooted hatred for the police. It's not the individual officer they hate; it's what he stands for--civil law. And that's the root of the hatred that the atheist has for God and for those that represent Him. Once again, the Bible has said this all along. It hits the nail on its big and hard head: Romans 8:7: ". . because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot" (Amplified Bible). They hate the morality that God's Law demands. That's the fuel for their hostility.

Is this a fair assumption?

Agreed. I have thought many times that the Chinese police must really fear God, whom they say they don't believe in; else why are they fighting so hard to keep people from worshipping Him?

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

Please, please give me an example. I don't think I have been derailed at all. I just think you misunderstand most of what I right, because it does not "fit" on your doctrinal tree...

I understand what you say as much as you do what I say.

Again, I want examples: something I can respond to. I guess you did not believe my rule:

Any doctrine that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong." : -))

I have never rearranged anything. Showing you a couple of verses that are clearly talking about the same thing is NOT rearranging. The Book of Daniel was written around the 6th century B.C. Revelations was written around 95 A.D. Both books speak of the same events, even though the visions of Daniel preceded John’s.

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

.
Matt 13:47-50
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:32-34
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

How many judgments are being talked about in the above scripture?

 

[lecoop]

Please, please give me an example. I don't think I have been derailed at all. I just think you misunderstand most of what I right, because it does not "fit" on your doctrinal tree...

I understand what you say as much as you do what I say.

Again, I want examples: something I can respond to. I guess you did not believe my rule:

Any doctrine that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong." : -))

I have never rearranged anything. Showing you a couple of verses that are clearly talking about the same thing is NOT rearranging. The Book of Daniel was written around the 6th century B.C. Revelations was written around 95 A.D. Both books speak of the same events, even though the visions of Daniel preceded John’s.

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

.
Matt 13:47-50
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:32-34
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

How many judgments are being talked about in the above scripture?

I say two. The parable of the tares, and of the dragnet are speaking of the same thing. Both of these are accomplished by angels. Not so with the judgement of the nations.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

I say two. The parable of the tares, and of the dragnet are speaking of the same thing. Both of these are accomplished by angels. Not so with the judgement of the nations.

Coop

Fair enough. I expected you to say this, or something simular. Is it safe to assume then that, Matt 25:32-34, is the scripture that you are refering to when you say, "Not so with the judgment of the nations"? :-?

 

[lecoop]

I say two. The parable of the tares, and of the dragnet are speaking of the same thing. Both of these are accomplished by angels. Not so with the judgement of the nations.

Coop

Fair enough. I expected you to say this, or something simular. Is it safe to assume then that, Matt 25:32-34, is the scripture that you are refering to when you say, "Not so with the judgment of the nations"? :-?

Yes. It is the only place in scripture where the judgement of the nations is found.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Yes. It is the only place in scripture where the judgement of the nations is found.

OK, So the two below are judgments by angels...not God? God has nothing to do with it. (only trying to understand what you are saying...not trying to put my own words in your text.)

I say two. The parable of the tares, and of the dragnet are speaking of the same thing. Both of these are accomplished by angels.

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matt 13:47-50
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.