The Two-Minute Salvation

[for_his_glory]

Endtime, let me give you an example of what I am talking about as love alone on our own accord will not get us into the kingdom of God. I think we can agree that Israel had great love for one another and even did good deeds, but God ended up divorcing Israel as they left their first love which was God as they went after other gods, Jeremiah 3:8.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people as they fell into idolatry worshipping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts, 1Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and then Israel started practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The TempleMount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original TempleMount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire.

The 490 years were up and the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10. The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Hi FHG. Thanks for the detailed explanation, but I don't understand how this is an example of people showing love without God. Could you rephrase it for me?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG. Thanks for the detailed explanation, but I don't understand how this is an example of people showing love without God. Could you rephrase it for me?

Those that are in the flesh can not please God, but yet they can show a carnal love for one another, but is a conditional love as they choose who to show love to as they also chose to hate others. Gods love is unconditional in that he loves everyone and that he would that none should perish, but come to repentance through that of His Son Christ Jesus who paid the price for all our sin as that was His finished work on the cross.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Those that are in the flesh can not please God, but yet they can show a carnal love for one another, but is a conditional love as they choose who to show love to as they also chose to hate others

Hi FHG. I still don't see examples of people showing love without God. I see you suggesting that people can show "carnal love" but I don't think that's the same thing as love. "Carnal love" sounds something more like selfishness pretending to be love. In those verses from Romans which you quoted Paul does't say anything about "carnal love".

In the story of the Samaritan, there was a Levite and a Priest, both of whom would be considered to have correct theology. But they were not the good guys in the story, because they did not show love to their neighbor. They let fear stop them from following God.

On the other hand there was the Samaritan, who, according to the Jews, had very wrong theology. Even Jesus, when speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well confirmed this (John 4:22). He bluntly said she didn't even know what she worshiped, but he concluded that such things didn't matter because a time was coming when the true worshipers would worship God in spirit and in truth (as opposed to the formulaic religion that Judaism had become).

The Samaritan ended up being the hero of the story not because of his religious professions of faith but because he showed love to his neighbor. He worshiped "in spirit" by responding to the HS's promptings to show love for his neighbor. The story finishes with Jesus deliberately making a comparison between the three; the Levite, the priest, and the Samaritan. When the lawyer who had tried to tempt Jesus was asked which of the three was the good guy, the lawyer was forced to admit that the Samaritan had shown mercy while the other two had not. We're living in a tree so dry these days that getting even that small admission is becoming harder and harder. The love of many is growing colder.

Anyway, to me, trying to argue that a person's love for their neighbor is actually some kind of carnal minded behavior (and therefore a false love) is similar to the pharisees claiming that Jesus was only able to perform miracles because of the power of demons. There is no source of love other than God, which means if a person is showing love then they must be responding to the HS. If you want to call that carnal mindedness just because the person does not conform to your understanding of correct theology, then you should do so verrrry carefully, because it could amount to calling the HS a carnal spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Endtime, carnal love is not a false love, but only that of an intense affection for another, but yet rejects the attributes of God for they know not God. Do the heathen love their own, but yet reject there even is a God of all creation? Do atheist show love for one another, but yet reject the existence of God? Do those of any occult love others, but yet worship other gods never believing in the true God? I hope you can see where I am going with this. It's not my theology, but all about accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior as explained in John 3:3-21 and Romans 10:9,10 for this is the only way to see the kingdom of God and have life eternal with Him.

John 3:8 Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus using a physical example of the wind to explain a spiritual reality that is the Holy Spirit. We can not see the wind, but we know its effects as is the same with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit goes where it is sent by God to those who have ears to hear the Gospel being preached as faith comes by hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17. We can not see the Holy Spirit physically, but we can hear him speak to us especially through the word of God. We can not physically see him come or go, but those who are born again are regenerated or made new again by the Holy Spirit as this is what Jesus has taught in John 3:3-21.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

as explained in John 3:3-21 and Romans 10:9,10 for this is the only way to see the kingdom of God and have life eternal with Him.

That is the only way to be saved if you have access to the knowledge of God in Christ. But for those who do not have sufficient knowledge of Christ to be saved that way, because it is suppressed or absent in their society (which is true in some Muslim countries), Paul explains that they show they do in fact 'know' God in a saving way by their actions.

Their righteous actions show they have the law written on their hearts, just as born again Christians do. I think that was the point he was making, and I agree completely. There are many who will come from the east, and west and put many 'religious' people to shame, just as the Samaritan (the byword for everything hostile and opposed to the truth) put the Jews to shame by what he did, which showed he 'knew' God, while their actions showed they did not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can not see the Holy Spirit physically, but we can hear him speak to us especially through the word of God.

And so, going back to the blasphemy of the Spirit thing...

When we hear the Spirit of God beckoning us to salvation and repentance in Jesus Christ, but we turn away in unbelief, we are in effect calling the Holy Spirit a liar (1 John 5:10 NASB), just as the Pharisees called the Holy Spirit a liar knowing that Christ was doing what he was doing by the Holy Spirit but preferred instead to call the Spirit doing those works through Jesus an unclean, lying, deceiving Spirit. There is no forgiveness available for the person who does that.

You can be confused and ignorant and wrong about a lot of things about Jesus and still be saved, but you can't call the Holy Spirit who testifies on the Father's behalf a lying spirit. That God has made perfectly clear. To know something is true in your heart because the Holy Spirit has shown it to be true to you through the gift of faith (Hebrews 11:1 NASB), and then turning away from it is the equivalent of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

And so, going back to the blasphemy of the Spirit thing...

When we hear the Spirit of God beckoning us to salvation and repentance in Jesus Christ, but we turn away in unbelief, we are in effect calling the Holy Spirit a liar (1 John 5:10 NASB), just as the Pharisees called the Holy Spirit a liar knowing that Christ was doing what he was doing by the Holy Spirit but preferred instead to call the Spirit doing those works through Jesus an unclean, lying, deceiving Spirit. There is no forgiveness available for the person who does that.

You can be confused and ignorant and wrong about a lot of things about Jesus and still be saved, but you can't call the Holy Spirit who testifies on the Father's behalf a lying spirit. That God has made perfectly clear. To know something is true in your heart because the Holy Spirit has shown it to be true to you through the gift of faith (Hebrews 11:1 NASB), and then turning away from it is the equivalent of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. This mostly happens to those of weak faith that are tossed to and through as they would believe the lies of the doctrines of Satan instead of the truths given by the Holy Spirit. This in scripture is called the falling away. 2Thessalonians 2:3,4.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is the only way to be saved if you have access to the knowledge of God in Christ. But for those who do not have sufficient knowledge of Christ to be saved that way, because it is suppressed or absent in their society (which is true in some Muslim countries), Paul explains that they show they do in fact 'know' God in a saving way by their actions.

Their righteous actions show they have the law written on their hearts, just as born again Christians do. I think that was the point he was making, and I agree completely. There are many who will come from the east, and west and put many 'religious' people to shame, just as the Samaritan (the byword for everything hostile and opposed to the truth) put the Jews to shame by what he did, which showed he 'knew' God, while their actions showed they did not.

What it all boils down to is faith even if it does not yet understand and is weak until it is nourished only by that of the Holy Spirit in whom God speaks through just as He spoke through Jesus. Faith comes by hearing and it is only through the Holy Spirit that we hear him calling us to repentance. Even if none have the written word before them or even hear others preaching of the Gospel it is always the Holy Spirit that draws us to God.

 

[Jim Parker]

OK, the last trumpet is sounding, and now no-one can deny what is happening. In about two minutes, the door closes forever. A lifetime non-believer says, "Now I believe; what do I need to do to be saved?" What do you say?

• Believe in the eternal God.
• Believe that Jesus Christ is your one-and-only way to salvation.
• Repent all your sins.
• Forgive all those who have sinned against you.

Is there anything you would add to this list?

How about; give water to the thirsty, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the stranger, visit the prisoner and the sick.
Those actions are important because those are the criteria by which Jesus will separate the blessed and the damned.
That's the final exam. Jesus has given us the teat beforehand in order to prepare.
And the final exam already started. You're taking it right now.
A 2-minute drill may not be adequate. When you hear, "Behold the Bridegroom! Go out to meet Him!" You better have your lamp full.

iakov the fool

 

[KevinK]

How about; give water to the thirsty, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the stranger, visit the prisoner and the sick.
Those actions are important because those are the criteria by which Jesus will separate the blessed and the damned.
A 2-minute drill may not be adequate.

iakov the fool

How do you mean? That would be salvation by works.

 

[Jim Parker]

How do you mean? That would be salvation by works.

What do "I" mean??? I'm posting what Jesus said. They're not my words.
That is exactly how Jesus said he would separate the blessed from the damned. (Mat 25:31-46)

Jesus also said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV):
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

And Paul said at Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV):
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

That's what the scripture says, not me.

Iakov the fool

 

[KevinK]

Did not mean to sound so personal, Jim. Sorry. Let me rephrase my question: "What does Scripture mean when it says (those things)." It does sound like salvation by works rather than salvation by the blood of the Christ.

 

[JLB]

Their righteous actions show they have the law written on their hearts, just as born again Christians do.

Brother, please tell me I'm reading this wrong and have misunderstood what you are saying.

The phrase who show the work of the law written in their hearts, is a direct reference to a born again Gentile Christian.

This does not refer to an unsaved person.

That is the work of the New Covenant, the Gospel.

These born again Gentiles do not have the law of Moses, but they show the work of the law written on their heart, because that was the promise of the New Covenant.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34



12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2:12-16

This language comes from the promise of the New Covenant, as spoken by the prophet Jeremiah.

The law written on their heart is a direct reference to the New Covenant believer.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Did not mean to sound so personal, Jim. Sorry. Let me rephrase my question: "What does Scripture mean when it says (those things)." It does sound like salvation by works rather than salvation by the blood of the Christ.

It doesn't seem to me that any of those passages are unclear.
No one can be saved except by the grace of God.
And God's word says at James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
As Jesus said, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 RSV) and John the Baptist told the Pharisees to "bear fruits in keeping with repentance," (Luk 3:8) so everyone who claims to be a believer needs show his belief by what he does, not just what he says. As James said, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (2:22)
So when I see someone saying , "All you have to do is believe." I say, "Baloney." The Bible says that if you believe then ACT LIKE you believe.
A tree is known by its fruit.
Got any fruit? Apparently, Jesus isn't much interested in what folks believe. He seems to be interested in what folks do about what they believe, like loving one another, and our neighbor and even our enemy. That can take some real work!

 

[OzSpen]

How do you mean? That would be salvation by works.

Take a read of Matthew 25:31-46 (ESV), Kevin, and you'll find that you and I will have to front God with what we've done AFTER salvation by the works we have done. Is Matt 25:31-46 ESV not in your Bible?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It doesn't seem to me that any of those passages are unclear.
No one can be saved except by the grace of God.
And God's word says at James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
As Jesus said, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 RSV) and John the Baptist told the Pharisees to "bear fruits in keeping with repentance," (Luk 3:8) so everyone who claims to be a believer needs show his belief by what he does, not just what he says. As James said, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (2:22)
So when I see someone saying , "All you have to do is believe." I say, "Baloney." The Bible says that if you believe then ACT LIKE you believe.
A tree is known by its fruit.
Got any fruit? Apparently, Jesus isn't much interested in what folks believe. He seems to be interested in what folks do about what they believe, like loving one another, and our neighbor and even our enemy. That can take some real work!

Well said, Jim. That is biblical Christianity - faith that works! Not works that cause faith but faith that leads to works and we'll be judged according to those works (Matt 25:31-46 ESV).

I appreciate your challenges to us.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

biblical Christianity - faith that works!

Amen

 

[KevinK]

It doesn't seem to me that any of those passages are unclear.
No one can be saved except by the grace of God.
And God's word says at James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
As Jesus said, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 RSV) and John the Baptist told the Pharisees to "bear fruits in keeping with repentance," (Luk 3:8) so everyone who claims to be a believer needs show his belief by what he does, not just what he says. As James said, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (2:22)
So when I see someone saying , "All you have to do is believe." I say, "Baloney." The Bible says that if you believe then ACT LIKE you believe.
A tree is known by its fruit.
Got any fruit? Apparently, Jesus isn't much interested in what folks believe. He seems to be interested in what folks do about what they believe, like loving one another, and our neighbor and even our enemy. That can take some real work!

Thank you for taking the timte to respond to my questions, Jim. I am, sorry if I'm coming across as confrontational. I am asking in the spirit of wanting to be educated. Never said I was a Biblical expert. That is why I am here.

Frankly, I am a little unclear about this whole belief vs. works savation. Depending on who you talk to, salvation is based on either one or the other and everything in between. I personally do both, but wonder what the actual, literal criteria are.

 

[KevinK]

Take a read of Matthew 25:31-46 (ESV), Kevin, and you'll find that you and I will have to front God with what we've done AFTER salvation by the works we have done. Is Matt 25:31-46 ESV not in your Bible?

Oz

Thank you OzPen, I'll take a look at those passages. I don't believe my Bible is suffering from literary omissions, no.