The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Davies]

Mitspa,

I think Jethro is elaborating very well, and with patience. I'm not concerned with what you say ,Mitspa, because anyone who reads your posts that are in reaction to what anyone says will understand the grace of God is not in your words even when you quote the Bible. That's not an accusation, that's all here for the view of anyone who would take the time to read it. How about this, I would like you to respond line for line, and address what Jethro is saying. I am genuinely interested in what you think. I can't know what you think though if you don't respond to what is being said to you. I've had this trouble when talking with you since the beginning. You have certain understandings, and because of your use of Scripture, it sounds very Biblical. I am glad for this, but that's as far as I can go with you. If you can do this, I'd love to discuss the subject of the thread with you.

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

I think Jethro is elaborating very well, and with patience. I'm not concerned with what you say ,Mitspa, because anyone who reads your posts that are in reaction to what anyone says will understand the grace of God is not in your words even when you quote the Bible. That's not an accusation, that's all here for the view of anyone who would take the time to read it. How about this, I would like you to respond line for line, and address what Jethro is saying. I am genuinely interested in what you think. I can't know what you think though if you don't respond to what is being said to you. I've had this trouble when talking with you since the beginning. You have certain understandings, and because of your use of Scripture, it sounds very Biblical. I am glad for this, but that's as far as I can go with you. If you can do this, I'd love to discuss the subject of the thread with you.

- Davies

Davies, I have spent hours laying out in clear scritptures the true gospel to you. At times you seem to understand and at other times you seem to reject any part of scripture that shows the liberty we have IN CHRIST. now what I understand of your doctrines and beliefs are quite different than those of jethro. For he indeed believes that the works of law are needed to be justified by faith. Now he rejects all that Paul wrote concerning the law and its purpose. He rejects the biblical fact of the nature of flesh in all men. He rejects the difference between the letter of the law, and the Spirit which is the truth of what was written.

So do you know also believe that the works of the law are added to faith to justify?

Or do you believe as is clearly seen that James is not speaking of works of law but of a living faith, that Abraham and RAHAB THE HARLOT are the works he used to show a living faith.

Please respond in a simple and straitfoward way? Because I know that many like to speak in circles and seem to not take any position of truth, whereby they can be judged.

I have made my position very clear! The law of moses cannot make a charge of sin against one who is justified by faith in Christ, nor can the law of Moses justify in any way, any one!

But the law stands as a witness to Christ and His righteousness, That it was but a picture "shadow" of the Holy Spirit, which is the TRUE LAW OF GOD WRITTEN UPON THE HEART. love!

Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, for all the law is fulfilled in one word! Love! and that being of the Spirit.

These things are not written in vain.

The strength of sin is the law!

For sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace!

If you do not understand these things? Why not actually be humble instead of "acting" humble? And I can help you to see the truth. But what I will not do is act as if false doctrine needs to be accepted and given its place, in the name of pretend "christian" manners! This is not biblical at all! Paul would have brought a harsh rod of correction against this nonsense that some attempt to teach.

I can honestly say that I love those of you who teach this nonsense! But you are bringing death and curses upon yourself and others by your doctrines. Love carrys a rod! that you can understand as well when you are delivered from your flesh. You will thank me someday for not moving from the truth. NO NOT FOR A MOMENT!l

 

[reba]

A snippet of the Terms of Service...2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.

This thread is coming close to violation let see if can use better verbiage to express our views....

 

[digging]

Funny how we get used to looking at a building only from one side and if we ended up on a different street we might not recognize we are in familiar territory after all.

Really we are not so far apart, we are both looking at the same building from two different sides that's all.

Let's turn it around for a moment and look at people who claim verbally to be Christian, however in addition to this claim they do drugs, they are immoral, use vulgar speech, they steal, they lie, are violent to their family, as well as cruel to animals. (I know personally this family and will not allow my children to ever go there)

They are CLAIMING to have faith, but do they really have the Christian faith? Because the fruitage of the gift of Gods spirit also produces righteous behaviors and righteous loving actions in the believer.

The two go together, faith with behaviors, the two help us know we are growing as spiritual children of God.

We can't not create faith through behaviors, but real faith does produce good behaviors, and the law is how the bible describes what these kinds of good behaviors look like.

Jesus showed that the law could be fufilled but only through the power of God's spirit at work in our heart. He showed the way the law is followed. True obedence to the law is a fruitage of the spirit in our flesh, the spirit is what gives strength to our weak flesh and this is how we can know we are on the path to life. We see the power of God at work in us. The very power that resurrected Jesus Christ as the first born from the dead.

It's like there are two witnesses for us, one on the inside and one on the outside. We need both to gauge the truth of our condition.
As the family I refered too.

Digging

Mitspa, we are saying the same thing!

"Well do you understand the differance between being commanded to follow rules that you can not keep, And have the Spirit of God in your heart that gives you the supernatural love of God, by which you love others and fulfill all that is written?"

 

[Mitspa]

Funny how we get used to looking at a building only from one side and if we ended up on a different street we might not recognize we are in familiar territory after all.

Really we are not so far apart, we are both looking at the same building from two different sides that's all.

Let's turn it around for a moment and look at people who claim verbally to be Christian, however in addition to this claim they do drugs, they are immoral, use vulgar speech, they steal, they lie, are violent to their family, as well as cruel to animals. (I know personally this family and will not allow my children to ever go there)

They are CLAIMING to have faith, but do they really have the Christian faith? Because the fruitage of the gift of Gods spirit also produces righteous behaviors and righteous loving actions in the believer.

The two go together, faith with behaviors, the two help us know we are growing as spiritual children of God.

We can't not create faith through behaviors, but real faith does produce good behaviors, and the law is how the bible describes what these kinds of good behaviors look like.

Jesus showed that the law could be fufilled but only through the power of God's spirit at work in our heart. He showed the way the law is followed. True obedence to the law is a fruitage of the spirit in our flesh, the spirit is what gives strength to our weak flesh and this is how we can know we are on the path to life. We see the power of God at work in us.
It's like there are two witnesses for us, one on the inside and one on the outside. We need both to gauge the truth of our condition. As the family I refered too.

Digging

Mitspa, we are saying the same thing!

"Well do you understand the differance between being commanded to follow rules that you can not keep, And have the Spirit of God in your heart that gives you the supernatural love of God, by which you love others and fulfill all that is written?"

I think I have made this point again and again, I do not see in general a conflict in this post and the truth of the gospel.

I have not in any way approved of someone living a ungodly life. As a matter of fact I teach and believe in seperation onto God that most are offended by. But again the answer to sin is not to point to the law of Moses! Paul never did this! But what he always did was point to the Spirit within each believer and warn them not to defile that which God put in them. For those who defile the temple of God, God will destroy!
Even turning some over to satan and rejecting them from the fellowship of the saints.
Notice this truth! The answer to sin in a believer is always the Spirit. James does this same thing when he points to love!

If someone thinks being set free from the law gives them the right to live in lust? They dont know nor do they honor God.
I doubt they know for sure if they even have the Holy Spirit?

No! being set free from the law is being set free from the flesh, so one can walk and live in the Spirit.

For THE LETTER holds the believer in bondage to their own flesh. Because the flesh will forever have sin it and that sin is aroused when the burden of the letter is laid upon it.

I hope some can see the truth of what Paul has shown us?l

 

[heymikey80]

Davies, Mitspa, and I'm sure heymikey are often talking about what we see as important. It's tougher to see what others see. Long posts aren't easy to navigate. Often it's easier to address the subject in your i mmediate thinking, then disclose more ias the thread unfolds.

 

[Davies]

Davies, I have spent hours laying out in clear scritptures the true gospel to you. At times you seem to understand and at other times you seem to reject any part of scripture that shows the liberty we have IN CHRIST. now what I understand of your doctrines and beliefs are quite different than those of jethro. For he indeed believes that the works of law are needed to be justified by faith. Now he rejects all that Paul wrote concerning the law and its purpose. He rejects the biblical fact of the nature of flesh in all men. He rejects the difference between the letter of the law, and the Spirit which is the truth of what was written.

So do you know also believe that the works of the law are added to faith to justify?

Hi Mitspa,

I don't believe that works are added to faith to justify a person. What I would say, and I think Jethro has been saying, is faith produces works that are not in violation of the law. Our obedience will show that our faith is genuine. We are empowered by the Holy Spirit to be obedient. Jesus tells us that we can do nothing without Him. The works we do, I would include them in the sanctification process or the means that the Holy Spirit uses to transform us into the image of Jesus. Ultimately, this work of God is completed at our death, or the death of our bodies. Only by God's grace through faith is a man justified before God. It is the finished work of Jesus that is imputed to us when we are born again that we stand justified by God, nothing else.

I can examine my works now, and check myself to see if I'm in the faith. One way of doing this, is to examine if what I do is sinful or not. If I'm sinning, then I know that I'm not walking in the Spirit. The law of God would identify those things that I do wrong. Because I've repented and put my faith in Jesus Christ, I am no longer condemned by the law, nor am I justified by the law, but the Holy Spirit will convict me of my sin. I confess my sin, and Jesus is faithful and just to forgive me my sin and wash me from all unrighteousness.

Or do you believe as is clearly seen that James is not speaking of works of law but of a living faith, that Abraham and RAHAB THE HARLOT are the works he used to show a living faith.

Regarding Abraham and Rahab, because they believed God and trusted Him with faith, their faith then dictated their actions. Their works did not justify them in the sense that they were now saved from the judgment to come, rather, their works showed the genuine nature of their faith. They were justified by grace through faith in God, and so they were empowered to be obedient to God.

I've tried to be as clear as possible, and despite the discordance in this thread, I find the review to be edifying and I hope encouraging to others.

- Davies

 

[digging]

Beautiful words of wisdom I say.....

Thank-you all for sharing such deep personal reflections of scriptural meanings and lessons.

Digging

 

[Mitspa]

I will say this and I think leave this thread to others. We who are justified are justified in spirit not in the flesh. God and holiness and truth are not found at all in any mans flesh.
To know one is justified requires that they KNOW they have the Holy Spirit and can live by the Holy Spirit. The truth of Christ in you, must become more real than the sin that dwells in the flesh.
Now as long as any "believer" is looking to the letter they are yet carnal, and trying to justifiy themselves by the flesh. If one depends on the flesh and getting it right? you will NEVER walk in a true justfied condition, as the scriptures clearly desire.

Some of you have never even dared to believe the goodness and all the promises of God, because you are still looking and judging yourself by the flesh and the letter. Your guilt, your fear, YOUR FLESH seperates you from knowing God and His love and power.
The law acts to magnify the condition of the flesh, when one allows it to judge their relationship with God.

Why do you think that Paul in Rom 8, after he makes the point that we have been set free from the law that held us in bondage. Goes on to say that NOW he is sure that NOTHING can seperate us from the love of God? It is the flesh, and the law that judges the flesh that is the veil, that sperates from God.

To him has ears to hear, be humble for a short while and consider the truth.

 

[heymikey80]

I will say this and I think leave this thread to others. We who are justified are justified in spirit not in the flesh. God and holiness and truth are not found at all in any mans flesh.

I'll have to limit my response because of the variety of overlaps and distinctions in our thinking.

The Spirit of God dwells in my flesh, my body.
But it's the Spirit in me, and not my body, which seals my salvation.
Walking in the Spirit flouts the overestimated value of flesh - works - causing salvation. It doesn't.
Works result. Works are evidence, and not very reliable. Through works though we learn we believers have come to know Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

I'll have to limit my response because of the variety of overlaps and distinctions in our thinking.

The Spirit of God dwells in my flesh, my body.
But it's the Spirit in me, and not my body, which seals my salvation.
Walking in the Spirit flouts the overestimated value of flesh - works - causing salvation. It doesn't.
Works result. Works are evidence, and not very reliable. Through works though we learn we believers have come to know Christ.

I agree that we often have different "terms" that we use to describe truth as we understand it.
But the term "flesh" sarx in Greek, has a very important place in NT scripture.
It basically defines that which came from Adam. A nature of sin that dwells in every man. Now this condition, "the body of sin" is a condition that does not dissappear at the point of salvation, but it a process of the Spirit overcoming the body of sin. That Christ in us, must become that which we live by.

For Paul said "i live yet it is no longer I who lives but Christ lives in me" The truth of the justified spirit is that which justifies. The flesh is nothing unless we allow it be? When we allow that we are justified by works of law( no matter how one says it) we are in fact trying to justify our flesh. When we allow that only the Spirit can keep the law, we lose all confidence in the flesh.
The "letter" is basically the natural mind of man, reading the commandment and judging themselves by the commandment.
To establish some sense of relationship with God.

So one can speak in a big circle and if at the end of there doctrine, they are justified by the law? They are in the flesh
and carnal.

As Paul said I could not speak to you as spiritual but as carnal as babes in Christ.

John also wrote to three groups of believers?
Children, young men, and fathers

The young man had over come satan "the accuser" when he has by the gospel been brought into the truth of who we are IN CHRIST, in the Spirit.

So the reason that Paul and others use love and the law together is to in fact cause the believer to walk in the truth of who they are in the Spirit.

For if one would really heed what they were saying? they would find that they can in fact see that supernatural love and life flowing from their spirits.

But no! some what to justify themselves by the letter? They cut off that life within them!

They are cut off from grace which is a Spirit! not a doctrine!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James like Paul uses the law as a witness ONLY to the truth of the SPIRIT.

Yes, as a witness as to whether or not you have the truth of the Spirit in you. If you can not, or do not, uphold the requirements of the law by the Spirit you are in danger of being found to have a 'faith' that can not save.

That is his point. Righteous works that are in line with the law justify us as having the Spirit and thus a faith that can save. Those works don't give us the Spirit, they show us to have it at work in us. This is not hard to understand.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will say this and I think leave this thread to others. We who are justified are justified in spirit not in the flesh. God and holiness and truth are not found at all in any mans flesh.

Holiness does not ORIGINATE in the flesh. But sooner or later you have to be able to SEE holiness in your flesh--in what you do, for "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14 NIV1984).

That is what James, too, is trying to say. If you do not have the holiness of godly obedience (as measured by the law) you may not have a faith that can save (he's more emphatic than that). Because without the obedience of faith you are showing you do not have the justification of faith.

It just so happens that the obedience of faith keeps, satisfies, and upholds the requirements of the law. A point you seem to be too afraid to acknowledge because you've been taught to think that any and all references to keeping, satisfying, and upholding the law automatically and without exception means you're trying to MAKE yourself righteous by the law. Completely and totally misguided, and narrow thinking. But that is what the early church leadership's indoctrination has done to so many generations of Christians. You've been proving over and over again that you are trapped by this indoctrination.

 

[Mitspa]

Holiness does not ORIGINATE in the flesh. But sooner or later you have to be able to SEE holiness in your flesh--in what you do, for "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14 NIV1984).

That is what James, too, is trying to say. If you do not have the holiness of godly obedience (as measured by the law) you may not have a faith that can save (he's more emphatic than that). Because without the obedience of faith you are showing you do not have the justification of faith.

It just so happens that the obedience of faith keeps, satisfies, and upholds the requirements of the law. A point you seem to be too afraid to acknowledge because you've been taught to think that any and all references to keeping, satisfying, and upholding the law automatically and without exception means you're trying to MAKE yourself righteous by the law. Completely and totally misguided, and narrow thinking. But that is what the early church leadership's indoctrination has done to so many generations of Christians. You've been proving over and over again that you are trapped by this indoctrination.

This is exactly NOT what the gospel says!
Holiness is being seperated onto God by faith , in the Spirit.

the pharisees had a "form" holiness that was from the law, we see that they did not know God. But the harlot at His feet is holy!
For He has been made unto us holiness. IN CHRIST is the only holiness any man can attain.

This is all a matter of the heart! Just as the Lord said, over and over. As a man believes in his heart, so is he!

Painting the dead flesh is just painting another tomb.

I live such a holy life that I often walk into rooms and prison cells and sinners begin to weep from the conviction of the Spirit of God upon me. I live holy not by looking to the law, but by dying to the law and looking to Christ alone.

I know the truth of the scriptures, because I live the truth of what I teach. None of you who claim to be under law, can keep what you are teaching to others.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, as a witness as to whether or not you have the truth of the Spirit in you. If you can not, or do not, uphold the requirements of the law by the Spirit you are in danger of being found to have a 'faith' that can not save.

That is his point. Righteous works that are in line with the law justify us as having the Spirit and thus a faith that can save. Those works don't give us the Spirit, they show us to have it at work in us. This is not hard to understand.

You go in a big circle of carnal reasoning! but at the end of all you say, you still are being justified by the works of the law, and not faith in Christ.

The strength of sin is the law, when one attempt to justify themselves by the written code, they are in fact, trying to justfiy there flesh. The flesh cannot be justified! This is the purpose of the law. To make all men come to Christ and be justified by faith. That is the clear testimony of the scriptures.

To turn that all around, and bring the law down to a level where the flesh can be justified by works, is to insult the Law and to insult the Spirit of Grace.

Ye have fallen from grace! you who are justified by the law.

Now i have repeated over and over how and why the law is used, but it is also written that even until this day, there minds and heart are blinded at the reading of Moses and the old testament.

 

[digging]

I clearly see what both of your are saying, Jethro you have made some very sound points. Mitspa also you make good points but you have a funny little reflex and you keep putting words in people mouths seemingly without knowing?

Now notice this point you made about yourself "I live such a holy life" the question we ask is
"how do you know it is holy?" What can you look to that tells you so?

What often has not been understood is the true function of the law.

Let's compare our spiritual journey to being in a sail boat with the law as Rutter, wish as they did the sail boat couldn't take them anywhere with out the wind of the holy spirit.

Onces the wind comes you can use the Rutter to gauger the general direction you wish to travel in.

Jesus Christ showed the true way for the law to be fufilled is through the spirit, we are all promised to be as he is and thus we also one day will each personally fufill the law in our own life. Fufillment of the law is the fruitage of the Spirit in our flesh.

Each one of us with obey the commandment/law of God completely. All of us will reject the tree of knowledge of good and evil and choose the tree of life.

Digging

 

[Mitspa]

I clearly see what both of your are saying, Jethro you have made some very sound points. Mitspa also you make good points but you have a funny little reflex and you keep putting words in people mouths seemingly without knowing?

Now notice this point you made about yourself "I live such a holy life" the question we ask is
"how do you know it is holy?" What can you look to that tells you so?

What often has not been understood is the true function of the law.

Let's compare our spiritual journey to being in a sail boat with the law as Rutter, wish as they did the sail boat couldn't take them anywhere with out the wind of the holy spirit.

Onces the wind comes you can use the Rutter to gauger the general direction you wish to travel in.

Jesus Christ showed the true way for the law to be fufilled is through the spirit, we are all promised to be as he is and thus we also one day will each personally fufill the law in our own life. Fufillment of the law is the fruitage of the Spirit in our flesh.

Each one of us with obey the commandment/law of God completely. All of us will reject the tree of knowledge of good and evil and choose the tree of life.

Digging

Digging thats a nice story but it is not the truth of scripture.
The law is not a "rudder" it its the strength of sin. It is the law of sin and death to all who follow the letter.

Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life, the law of moses is the ministry of death and condemnation.

So you can spin a story like that all you want but God has spoken and no matter how hard it is for some of you to believe? The law is cursed and all those who are under it are cursed. Now one MUST DIE to the law at the Cross, thats it!

As far as explaining holiness to you? I cannot because you seem to be under law as well? I cannot speak to you as spiritual.

Walk in the spirit is the only biblical answer to sin.
The law produces sinful desires in all who look to it.
The strength of sin is the law.
For sin will not have dominion over you, because your not under law but under grace.

So then it seems those of you who are going about to be teachers of the law, do not know what you are saying or trying to affirm. just as it is written about false teachers.

 

[heymikey80]

I agree that we often have different "terms" that we use to describe truth as we understand it.
But the term "flesh" sarx in Greek, has a very important place in NT scripture.
It basically defines that which came from Adam. A nature of sin that dwells in every man. Now this condition, "the body of sin" is a condition that does not dissappear at the point of salvation, but it a process of the Spirit overcoming the body of sin. That Christ in us, must become that which we live by.

Like I said, a truckload of little items pops up that I'm trying to keep away from. Yes, I agree, overcoming the flesh, the body of sin, is important. In fact it's actually done by the sacrifice of Christ. We're therefore "as good as dead", because Christ was crucified in the flesh for us. God's Courtroom shall see it this way. But ... that's not what you referred to, but instead referred to the Spirit of God working within mortal flesh (it reminds me this is alluded to directly in Romans 8:11). I'd have to say that the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for this. The Spirit is doing something, yes, and He did something with Christ Jesus as well for us and for our salvation. But not everything the Spirit does saves us; often it's preparation in this life for what comes next.

Romans 7:24-8:4 points out we continue to serve both Spirit and flesh as Christians, without condemnation. Not that fleshliness is somehow sanctified as good, no: but that it's a fact that it remains in us as long as we're ... in the flesh.

I agree Romans 8 has some challenges for any theology.

 

[Mitspa]

Like I said, a truckload of little items pops up that I'm trying to keep away from. Yes, I agree, overcoming the flesh, the body of sin, is important. In fact it's actually done by the sacrifice of Christ. We're therefore "as good as dead", because Christ was crucified in the flesh for us. God's Courtroom shall see it this way. But ... that's not what you referred to, but instead referred to the Spirit of God working within mortal flesh (it reminds me this is alluded to directly in Romans 8:11). I'd have to say that the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for this. The Spirit is doing something, yes, and He did something with Christ Jesus as well for us and for our salvation. But not everything the Spirit does saves us; often it's preparation in this life for what comes next.

Romans 7:24-8:4 points out we continue to serve both Spirit and flesh as Christians, without condemnation. Not that fleshliness is somehow sanctified as good, no: but that it's a fact that it remains in us as long as we're ... in the flesh.

I agree Romans 8 has some challenges for any theology.

I do not think the scriptures are speaking vain things? The only way to overcome the flesh is to walk in the spirit.
Now it seems you have knowledge of the Body and Blood of Christ. I hope these things are very real to you? But if in fact you do have confidence and trust in His Sacrifice? Then It was indeed the Holy Spirit who taught you these truths.

We are in fact New Spiritual Creations. All that we are in God we are in spirit For those who worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and truth.
For we are those who worship God in spirit and have no confidence in the flesh.
So it seems you are saying that the Holy Spirt has a limited place and is somehow not the desired goal of the scriptures?

Maybe I am seeing your post in the wrong light? But make no mistake the scriptures main goal is to bring believers into the spirit, and to live by the spiritual mind, which is life,peach and love.

 

[digging]

Yes the law is connected to the curse that started in the very beginning. Adam fell under the curse because he failed to trust God which lead him to disobey that first commandment/law of God. That single first commandment has all the laws of God embodied within it.

Mitspa makes me smile all the time because he really does make great points. Notice this one,

"The law produces sinful desires in all who look to it" now compare that to what happened to Eve, what did she do? Didn't she look longly at the tree and then formed a desire to take from it rather than a desire to obey God and reject the temptation and turn her back and reach out for the tree of life? The commandment was holy because it could also produce the desire to obey through faith over the desire to sin, as it did in Jesus Christ.


I'm hoping Davies, and Jethro and the others here are interested in looking at what we've been saying with the law and looking at these other possible lessons connected back to the garden event.

As I said in a earlier post, two actions were required of them in the Garden. Obeying the Commandment of God not taking from the tree of knowledge while reaching for the gift from the tree of life. The TWO actioning working together, the law fulfilled through the power of the spirit doesn't take away the commandment made in the first place. It just showed the path to accomplishing it.

Jesus showed us how to do this. He took the curse that fell on Adam and has created the possibility for us to each have a cleansed standing before God, out from under Adams curse because he failed to obey the commandment of God and thus was also cut of from the tree of life.

What will we do now?

Surely with all our heart we will wish to never do as Adam did, we will desire with our entire being to obey the commandment of God so we'll never be cut off from the tree of life which we hunger for completely. Through this desire to obey we find our thirst for the water of life. The way to master the flesh(obey commandment) is through the power of the spirit that he promises to give us in full as a river of water of life bubbling up from our inward most parts.

Digging