The faith to believe is indeed the grace of God for salvation. As for 'love, baptism, sacrifice...everything we come in contact with', that is absurd to call them gifts. All you're saying is works of the law are God's gift, God's grace for salvation. The very thing you are sure you don't believe.
Wow, talk about your straw men...Didn't I say DOZENS of times that these ACTIONS are not "works of the law"? Why are you putting YOUR words in my mouth? You are the one who thinks ALL deeds are "works of the law", not me. The desperation is starting to creep in...
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity..." (2 Timothy 1:9 NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs..." (Titus 3:5 NASB)
Righteous 'works' and 'grace' are two entirely different things. Being saved (specifically, being justified) is NOT because we did righteous things. We are justified by the grace and mercy of Christ's blood given to us through faith, not what we do, that washes away sin guilt and unrighteousness and replaces it with right standing with God.
Simply repeating the verses that you THINK affirm your contention does not prove the point. I listed three verses FROM PAUL where he draws a DIRECT CONNECTION between "deeds which we have done (past tense) in righteousness" and "works of the law". You chose to ignore them, which is not surprising.
When Paul uses the term "deeds which we have done in righteousness", he is speaking of himself who "
practic[ed] (past tense) the righteousness which is based on the law"
You want biblical proof, there it is. Now simply return the favor and show me ANY verses from ANYONE, not just Paul, that tie "deeds which we have done in righteousness" to baptism?....keeping the commandments?...charity?...Didn't think so...
Baptism, charity, sacrifice ARE works of the law!!!!!!
Another ignored point from a previous post. Again, simply repeating your contention is not proving it. As I said in a previous post, just because a deed or action is IN the OT or even in the "law" doesn't mean it's a "work" of the law. Love of God is then a "work" of the law? What about faith? Do you think Paul had in mind these two "works" while writing? So, then you can see how an ACTION can be written IN the law and not be a "work OF the law", right?
The only way to not see that is to rationalize that truth away, as you did with charity (love) in a previous post (which, by the way, I have a very long response to tucked away in Wordpad). There's no foundation whatsoever upon which to suggest these things are not works of the law.
You are the one who is making a positive statement, so the burden of proof rests firmly on you. I am mot obliged to prove a negative. I have proven, beyond a doubt, that by "works" Paul is talking about circumcision and "works OF the law". It's up to you to prove that he is expanding his use of the word to mean baptism, keeping the commandments, sacrifice, etc. Please proceed...
When you can show me where Paul lists the works that DO justify (outside of the 'work' of believing, of course) then you'll have made your point.
There is no "list". He didn't feel the need to write one because he was crystal clear on what he meant by "works", especially considering that gentile circumcision was the first real doctrinal challenge to the Church (Acts 15), he had discussed this topic with the recipients of his letters and there was a council called to deal with it. But, here are a couple of verses anyway.
"Yet woman
will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and
love and holiness, with modesty. (1Tim. 2:15)
This is pretty self-explanatory. It's obvious that the SACRIFICE of bearing children will effect a woman's salvation.
IF she CONTINUES in faith, love holiness and modesty... So, if she doesn't CONTINUE in faith, will she lose her salvation? Humm...food for thought and another thread...
"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will
render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in
well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality,
he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and
do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but
glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek." (Rom 2)
Here, "works" are DIRECTLY tied to "well-doing", not "works of the law". The "works" being discussed here are not CONTRASTING faith and "works", but bad "works" and good "works" are being contrasted. One is said to give "eternal life" the other "tribulation and distress". Either Paul is contradicting himself within the the pages of same book, or "works" here mean something different from "works of the law" written elsewhere.
There is also James, who says we are Not justified by faith alone, Peter who says water baptism saves, and Jesus Who says keeping the commandments leads to eternal life, but you don't actually think those words mean what they say, so let's just discuss these two to start. There will be enough pretzels to go around.
But as it is he plainly says there is no such thing. As he says it is God's grace given to us through the conduit of faith, not righteous works, that justifies. He says nothing else counts towards that (being justified), only faith. The faith that then expresses itself in love toward others (Galatians 5:6). Not even the love that faith produces can justify (MAKE) a person righteous.
Another positive statement that demands proof. where does Paul say that not even love saves?
It only makes sense, because the only way to have unrighteousness removed is for God to brush it away. There is nothing a man can do to brush his own sin guilt away. The only thing you can 'do' for that to happen is to believe that God brushes it away through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness. .
Because of what I just said. The logic of only being justified through faith, all by itself apart from works, is that only forgiveness can remove sin guilt. Nothing a man can do outside of that can remove sin guilt. Nothing.
"And Peter said to them, "
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)
Ananias said to Paul, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be
baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'" (Acts 22:16)
Well, according to Peter and Ananias, repentance and water baptism remove sin guilt, not faith alone. I smell more pretzels...
The context of the passage is the fact that there is nothing a man can do to not be a condemned sinner anymore.
Nothing OUTSIDE faith. All salvific deeds MUST be done in faith.
Context is more than just words. It includes meaning, too.
OK...
And he makes that meaning clear. We're all condemned as sinners because we don't keep the law, the standard by which that unrighteousness is measured for the purpose of determining unrighteousness. Unrighteousness that is then removed and replaced with God's free gift of righteousness through the forgiveness of sins, NOT through righteous things we do, of which the law is the standard.
And, there it is, the "extension" notion. This is what needs to be proved, that Paul is merely using the "law" as an EXAMPLE of works that don't save, when he REALLY means to extend "works" to mean "everything done".
'Baptism, keeping the commandments, charity' ARE works of the law!!!!!!!
This is where we ended in the last thread. I asked questions you couldn't answer satisfactorily. Here they are again:
I'm sitting here, at my computer NOT committing adulatory or coveting or killing... Am I "earning" salvation? Is sitting NOT SINNING a "work of the law"?
Just show me where Paul says "baptism, keeping the commandments, charity, etc." JUSTIFY a person (as in 'make' one righteous, not 'show' one to have the righteousness of God). That's all YOU have to do.
I never made the claim that Paul specifically teaches this, I only said that, to Paul, "works" means "works of the Mosaic law", not everything done. YOU are the one making the claim that, to Paul, "works" means everything done. Again, I have proved my point, and I am not burdened to prove what Paul DOESN'T teach. The burden of proof is on you to prove your positive statement ("works" means baptism, keeping the commandments, etc.), not on me to DISPROVE it.
I've shown you where Paul says faith is the ONLY thing that counts towards justification, and how even he agrees with James that it is love, specifically (a commanded work of the law), that follows faith in Christ (the faith that justifies) validating that faith as genuine and able to save.
Let me address this "James" thing with an example. We can both think and talk in the abstract about these things, but it's when we take our thoughts into the real world is where we see which ones "work" (no pun intended).
A person gets saved. He "accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and truly turns his life over to Christ. He reads the bible, goes to church, prays constantly. Everyone can see he has the "Spirit" of God within him. Jesus is always on his lips and in his heart. He volunteers at homeless shelters, teaches religious ed., works on his marriage, quits partying, quits sinning (as much as humanly possible), devotes his life to his family and his God.
In short, he "shows" his faith is not a "said" faith. He is "justified" (declared righteous) by his faith alone, yet he has "showed" his faith by his works, just like it says in James.
According to your view, his faith is a true SAVING faith, correct?
A few years go by and the Bible reading starts slipping, so does the church-going. He doesn't volunteer for the homeless shelter because he's "too busy". He prays only at night before bed and he can't see anything wrong with knocking down a few at the local bar every once in a while, after all, he supports his family well enough.
A few more years go by and he finds himself almost right where he was BEFORE conversion. He still "believes" in Jesus and still prays every once in a while, but the bulk of his attention is on the world and "getting ahead". He doesn't cheat on his wife, or beat his kids, but NO One can tell he is a "believer".
A few more years and he is right back where he was before conversion. He isn't a "bad" guy, but he really has no prayer life at all, yet considers himself "saved" due to his earlier "conversion". He's just living his life as a secular person, assuming he is going to Heaven upon death because the Bible says he is saved by "faith alone", which he SAYS he has.
He has sunk into a "said" faith, a faith with no "works", which James says can't save.
You only have two choices.
1) Either he had a "saving faith" DEMONSTRATED BY HIS WORKS, and he LOST IT, or;
2) He NEVER HAD a saving faith and his "good works" don't "show" anything, thereby proving James isn't saying what you want him to be saying. James would have to be saying what his untwisted words actually say, that we are justified (made righteous) by our works, not by faith alone.
You can't have it both ways.
